Benny, how would you address these problems with China alternatively though? The simple fact is that they need our market a lot more than we need theirs. Supply chains are already moving away from China as cheap labor dries up and as the population begins to age. Vietnam, India, etc. Opening our markets to them(which once upon a time I believed in) has failed to do anything other than create a neo-facist almost super power in the world.
Sorry not sorry, a little short term pain for American consumers is a small price to pay to avoid a world dominated by the CCP. It's definitely preferable to world war 3 nuclear bugaloo. Happy to hear the alternative method to bring the CCP to heel that's better. Convince me and I'll advocate for that.
I mean, that's it right there. That's the point of it.
Like Trump, hate Trump, whatever Trump. Whomever is making a play to solve this, you can only evaluate the play after you ask yourself two questions: (1) is there anything about our economic relationship with the Chinese that's long-term detrimental to American interests (I assume we all agree "yes" here); and (2) what levers do we? have to pull?
I am not a Trump guy, and I don't reflexively respond to Tuff talk and bravado. But taking a hard line with China, now, as opposed to when we need them more than they need us, is not the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Recognize, too, that there is a Yuge cultural issue here. We walk, talk and act like Western Europeans. We understand each other for obvious reasons and can thus appeal to each other's sense of fairness, right, wrong, etc. When someone from Western Europe is fucking you, he knows he's fucking you, and he knows you know that he knows.
The Chinese are a different animal. I've dealt with their import bureaucracy and layers and layers of "agents" whom you need to hire to get you from the dock to their markets. Everybody has their hand out there, and what we consider dishonesty is a routine day at the office for them. They're different. Not better or worse, but different. For that reason, I've always been as cynical about talking shit out with them as I was about Trumpy's chances with fatboy. Ain't gonna work. You gotta him 'em where it hurts. This is a population of people who can still remember what it's like to starve. This isn't about diplomacy. It's free market economis. You do what you're in a position to do, and you take what you're in a position to have to take. It's that simple.
It's not personally Sonny. It's just business.
I just finished this thread. @creepycoug won this one rather easily. This being the gem poast, but all the rest of his are very impressive. After almost three years here, how did I miss your insight? I'm not gay, but I'd probably let Dennis do me. You may have made the list too.
Many strong poasts from others. To bad Hondo showed up and the thread died.
This is a GOOD thread. Thank @YellowSnow. Your game was pretty strong too.
I apologize since you’ve already addressed this once today. You are very good at explaining markets and micro economics.
In summation:
The Right: Free markets work best! Except internationally, we need to control international markets.
The Left: Free markets work best! Except domestically, we need to control domestic markets.
Doog_Bot: *sigh*
I'd Pinochet the lot of you if I didn't believe in the universality of human rights.
Also in summation, using government to control markets (through taxes, tariffs, and regulations) is futile and self-defeating in both international and domestic markets.
No matter how sanctimonious or self-righteous you are, you are not changing the laws of nature.
CD, I think we've got to quit over simplifying the free trade debate discussion. China is a much different animal when it comes our national interests, than, say opening up our markets to Japan or Germany which are both liberal democracies and close allies. Did you know that back in the 1980's when the domestic automakers were getting hammered by Japanese imports, we were able to reach an agreement with Japan where Toyota, HondoFS, etc started opening up plants in the US? They were a close ally and willing to work with us to save some jerbs in America. Hell, my wife's MDX is made by a bunch of cousin fuckers down in Bammer. China doesn't want to be cooperative because they are a mercantilist, dictatorship bent on displacing the US the the sole superpower.
So let’s pay more for consumer goods, destroy markets and undermine the 60 year old trade liberation infrastructure while trump sorts out a “deal” with “enforcement”?
Now hold on a second...
China entered the WTO in 2001. Average GDP growth per year in the US was way higher in the period 1945- 2001 than it's been sense. We had plenty of free trade with other global trading partners prior to 2001. It ain't FREE TRADE if the other side ain't FREE. I love buying shit from Japan, Mexico, Germany, Vietnam, etc. Fuck China.
So based on current and historical data, we don’t need a trade agreement with China, tariffs and trade wars are fucking stupid and free people in free markets will always win? That’s what I’ve been saying. Fuck China. The US with California has and will always win without this trumptardian protectionism, isolationism, and ridiculous “trade deal.”
I love how this dipshit thinks intellectual property theft is part of a "free market."
Just as He believes hiring no skilled fence jumpers for .30 on the dollar is free market as well.
That is free market. The opposite of that is China.
In the Wild West era, sure.gif.
No, not Wild West Cuog! The free migration of labor and capital is the baseline. I assume they teach economis at Cuog. Every single impediment is an inefficiency. Some of those are warranted, some are not. People and governments have different views of them for varying reasons. But labor and capital finding one another in the market with no impediments is the baseline.
As for our situation, I have yet to hear a cogent argument, in the Tug or elsewhere, about the evils of letting in cheap labor other than exaggerated / made-up stories of legions of Mexicans getting free bennies from the Fed that are denied to our veterans.
Bullshit or not, that's not an economic argument in any event. On that front, all I see are posts with conclusory statements about the depressing effects on wages for low-skilled domestic workers (no shit?) made by fellow Tugmen whose homes are full of cheap shit imported from Mexico and China. Apparently the domestic manufacturer isn't on their minds. So, I'm not persuaded.
During the Industrial Revolution, this made sense. We? needed anyone that could fog a mirror to come to America to build and work in factories and also build infrastructure. If they weren't even semi retarded, they could be taught a job to be productive. Things have changed since then. What this country starves for now is skilled labor. Not a free flow of gardeners, pickers and ditch diggers.
I apologize since you’ve already addressed this once today. You are very good at explaining markets and micro economics.
In summation:
The Right: Free markets work best! Except internationally, we need to control international markets.
The Left: Free markets work best! Except domestically, we need to control domestic markets.
Doog_Bot: *sigh*
I'd Pinochet the lot of you if I didn't believe in the universality of human rights.
Also in summation, using government to control markets (through taxes, tariffs, and regulations) is futile and self-defeating in both international and domestic markets.
No matter how sanctimonious or self-righteous you are, you are not changing the laws of nature.
CD, I think we've got to quit over simplifying the free trade debate discussion. China is a much different animal when it comes our national interests, than, say opening up our markets to Japan or Germany which are both liberal democracies and close allies. Did you know that back in the 1980's when the domestic automakers were getting hammered by Japanese imports, we were able to reach an agreement with Japan where Toyota, HondoFS, etc started opening up plants in the US? They were a close ally and willing to work with us to save some jerbs in America. Hell, my wife's MDX is made by a bunch of cousin fuckers down in Bammer. China doesn't want to be cooperative because they are a mercantilist, dictatorship bent on displacing the US the the sole superpower.
So let’s pay more for consumer goods, destroy markets and undermine the 60 year old trade liberation infrastructure while trump sorts out a “deal” with “enforcement”?
Now hold on a second...
China entered the WTO in 2001. Average GDP growth per year in the US was way higher in the period 1945- 2001 than it's been sense. We had plenty of free trade with other global trading partners prior to 2001. It ain't FREE TRADE if the other side ain't FREE. I love buying shit from Japan, Mexico, Germany, Vietnam, etc. Fuck China.
So based on current and historical data, we don’t need a trade agreement with China, tariffs and trade wars are fucking stupid and free people in free markets will always win? That’s what I’ve been saying. Fuck China. The US with California has and will always win without this trumptardian protectionism, isolationism, and ridiculous “trade deal.”
I love how this dipshit thinks intellectual property theft is part of a "free market."
Just as He believes hiring no skilled fence jumpers for .30 on the dollar is free market as well.
That is free market. The opposite of that is China.
In the Wild West era, sure.gif.
No, not Wild West Cuog! The free migration of labor and capital is the baseline. I assume they teach economis at Cuog. Every single impediment is an inefficiency. Some of those are warranted, some are not. People and governments have different views of them for varying reasons. But labor and capital finding one another in the market with no impediments is the baseline.
As for our situation, I have yet to hear a cogent argument, in the Tug or elsewhere, about the evils of letting in cheap labor other than exaggerated / made-up stories of legions of Mexicans getting free bennies from the Fed that are denied to our veterans.
Bullshit or not, that's not an economic argument in any event. On that front, all I see are posts with conclusory statements about the depressing effects on wages for low-skilled domestic workers (no shit?) made by fellow Tugmen whose homes are full of cheap shit imported from Mexico and China. Apparently the domestic manufacturer isn't on their minds. So, I'm not persuaded.
During the Industrial Revolution, this made sense. We? needed anyone that could fog a mirror to come to America to build and work in factories and also build infrastructure. If they weren't even semi retarded, they could be taught a job to be productive. Things have changed since then. What this country starves for now is skilled labor. Not a free flow of gardeners, pickers and ditch diggers.
I apologize since you’ve already addressed this once today. You are very good at explaining markets and micro economics.
In summation:
The Right: Free markets work best! Except internationally, we need to control international markets.
The Left: Free markets work best! Except domestically, we need to control domestic markets.
Doog_Bot: *sigh*
I'd Pinochet the lot of you if I didn't believe in the universality of human rights.
Also in summation, using government to control markets (through taxes, tariffs, and regulations) is futile and self-defeating in both international and domestic markets.
No matter how sanctimonious or self-righteous you are, you are not changing the laws of nature.
CD, I think we've got to quit over simplifying the free trade debate discussion. China is a much different animal when it comes our national interests, than, say opening up our markets to Japan or Germany which are both liberal democracies and close allies. Did you know that back in the 1980's when the domestic automakers were getting hammered by Japanese imports, we were able to reach an agreement with Japan where Toyota, HondoFS, etc started opening up plants in the US? They were a close ally and willing to work with us to save some jerbs in America. Hell, my wife's MDX is made by a bunch of cousin fuckers down in Bammer. China doesn't want to be cooperative because they are a mercantilist, dictatorship bent on displacing the US the the sole superpower.
So let’s pay more for consumer goods, destroy markets and undermine the 60 year old trade liberation infrastructure while trump sorts out a “deal” with “enforcement”?
Now hold on a second...
China entered the WTO in 2001. Average GDP growth per year in the US was way higher in the period 1945- 2001 than it's been sense. We had plenty of free trade with other global trading partners prior to 2001. It ain't FREE TRADE if the other side ain't FREE. I love buying shit from Japan, Mexico, Germany, Vietnam, etc. Fuck China.
So based on current and historical data, we don’t need a trade agreement with China, tariffs and trade wars are fucking stupid and free people in free markets will always win? That’s what I’ve been saying. Fuck China. The US with California has and will always win without this trumptardian protectionism, isolationism, and ridiculous “trade deal.”
I love how this dipshit thinks intellectual property theft is part of a "free market."
Just as He believes hiring no skilled fence jumpers for .30 on the dollar is free market as well.
That is free market. The opposite of that is China.
In the Wild West era, sure.gif.
No, not Wild West Cuog! The free migration of labor and capital is the baseline. I assume they teach economis at Cuog. Every single impediment is an inefficiency. Some of those are warranted, some are not. People and governments have different views of them for varying reasons. But labor and capital finding one another in the market with no impediments is the baseline.
As for our situation, I have yet to hear a cogent argument, in the Tug or elsewhere, about the evils of letting in cheap labor other than exaggerated / made-up stories of legions of Mexicans getting free bennies from the Fed that are denied to our veterans.
Bullshit or not, that's not an economic argument in any event. On that front, all I see are posts with conclusory statements about the depressing effects on wages for low-skilled domestic workers (no shit?) made by fellow Tugmen whose homes are full of cheap shit imported from Mexico and China. Apparently the domestic manufacturer isn't on their minds. So, I'm not persuaded.
During the Industrial Revolution, this made sense. We? needed anyone that could fog a mirror to come to America to build and work in factories and also build infrastructure. If they weren't even semi retarded, they could be taught a job to be productive. Things have changed since then. What this country starves for now is skilled labor. Not a free flow of gardeners, pickers and ditch diggers.
So the US has an under supply of skilled labor but an over supply of unskilled labor? More engineers and fewer landscape professionals is what you are advocating for? Interesting. Wonder why you would make that assessment?
Comments
I conflated two different videos in my memory. Both are relevant and good though and are essentially saying the same things.
PHD in Economics and Brigadier General Robert Spalding(who spent time advising the WH) discussing the Chinese trade dilemma
Cool @Swaye missile test stuff at beginning, about 11 minutes in a discussion of multi-domain warfare with 4 star General Brown
@CirrhosisDawg might want to make your investor's portfolios adjust their emerging markets funds...