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Welcome to the Hardcore Husky Forums. Folks who are well-known in Cyberland and not that dumb.

Mariners Baby!

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  • greenbloodgreenblood Member Posts: 13,545
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    chuck said:

    chuck said:

    Julio winning Rookie of the Year is about all the M’s have going. He had a slow start but is probably the best hitter on the team already.

    Thats not true. Not even close.

    You're always too quick to jump to conclusions about individual players. You got one right on Kelenic though.
    What else do the M’s have worth watching? I didn’t mean they have no other decent players. They have Crawford, Lewis (when healthy), and France. By the end of the year, Julio will have had the best season besides maybe France.

    Julio winning ROY is the only thing the M’s have going because they aren’t sniffing the playoffs. Even if they started hitting better, the bullpen is terrible. TSIO.
    Funny that the bullpen would stick out as the biggest weakness at this point. Shows how fast and easy a lineup can fall apart. Giles, Swanson and Sadler being hurt has been a blow. Steckenrider sucking was not surprising.

    They aren't out of the playoffs. TSINO Roadie. Their best hitting is ahead of them, as is a stronger bullpen.

    Or not. I won't lose sleep either way but I'll still be interested in individual performance even if they keep sucking.
    They are already 6 back in the wildcard, and we are barely into June. I saw somebody compare the Mariners to that Atlanta team. Got to be kidding me! This Mariner team doesn't have remotely close to the amount of talent that Braves team had.
    RoadDawg55
  • DerekJohnsonDerekJohnson Administrator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 45,684
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    It's been very clear to me with Kelenic it is 100% mental. He has 2 or 3 instances where I have seen reports of him "changing his swing" because of the slump. Hes a MLB player, he doesn't need to be doing that. Tweaking stuff? Sure but changing your swing is just weird and reeks of finding an excuse why he hasn't been hitting.

    When Kelenic squares a ball up he hits it harder than almost everyone on the team. His issue is that his at bats are fucking TERRIBLE. His mental breaks after the first pitch. Watches a fastball right down the tube, swings at off speed way out of the zone... great now you are at 0-2 and have already mentally folded. The at bat is over at that point.

    Someone just needs to slap him and tell him to play fucking baseball and not hero ball.

    When a young Chuck Knox was an offensive line coach for the New York Jets, a rookie named Joe Namath was struggling terribly during a game. Knox went over and grabbed him and said, "Forget all that bullshit the coaches are telling you. Just pick a guy and let it fly."

    Namath said it was the bet advice he ever received. Knox made a man out of him that day.

    ATBS, Kelenic still sucks.
  • DerekJohnsonDerekJohnson Administrator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 45,684
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    Cue the "Just rip it" and "sounds like trust issues" posts... 3....2....1....
  • RaceBannonRaceBannon Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 82,384
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    It's been very clear to me with Kelenic it is 100% mental. He has 2 or 3 instances where I have seen reports of him "changing his swing" because of the slump. Hes a MLB player, he doesn't need to be doing that. Tweaking stuff? Sure but changing your swing is just weird and reeks of finding an excuse why he hasn't been hitting.

    When Kelenic squares a ball up he hits it harder than almost everyone on the team. His issue is that his at bats are fucking TERRIBLE. His mental breaks after the first pitch. Watches a fastball right down the tube, swings at off speed way out of the zone... great now you are at 0-2 and have already mentally folded. The at bat is over at that point.

    Someone just needs to slap him and tell him to play fucking baseball and not hero ball.

    When a young Chuck Knox was an offensive line coach for the New York Jets, a rookie named Joe Namath was struggling terribly during a game. Knox went over and grabbed him and said, "Forget all that bullshit the coaches are telling you. Just pick a guy and let it fly."

    Namath said it was the bet advice he ever received. Knox made a man out of him that day.

    ATBS, Kelenic still sucks.
    There are no problems there are only opportunities for a solution- Chuck Knox
  • DerekJohnsonDerekJohnson Administrator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 45,684
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    It's been very clear to me with Kelenic it is 100% mental. He has 2 or 3 instances where I have seen reports of him "changing his swing" because of the slump. Hes a MLB player, he doesn't need to be doing that. Tweaking stuff? Sure but changing your swing is just weird and reeks of finding an excuse why he hasn't been hitting.

    When Kelenic squares a ball up he hits it harder than almost everyone on the team. His issue is that his at bats are fucking TERRIBLE. His mental breaks after the first pitch. Watches a fastball right down the tube, swings at off speed way out of the zone... great now you are at 0-2 and have already mentally folded. The at bat is over at that point.

    Someone just needs to slap him and tell him to play fucking baseball and not hero ball.

    When a young Chuck Knox was an offensive line coach for the New York Jets, a rookie named Joe Namath was struggling terribly during a game. Knox went over and grabbed him and said, "Forget all that bullshit the coaches are telling you. Just pick a guy and let it fly."

    Namath said it was the bet advice he ever received. Knox made a man out of him that day.

    ATBS, Kelenic still sucks.
    There are no problems there are only opportunities for a solution- Chuck Knox
    "Football players make football plays"
    RaceBannon
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 7,325
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    It's been very clear to me with Kelenic it is 100% mental. He has 2 or 3 instances where I have seen reports of him "changing his swing" because of the slump. Hes a MLB player, he doesn't need to be doing that. Tweaking stuff? Sure but changing your swing is just weird and reeks of finding an excuse why he hasn't been hitting.

    When Kelenic squares a ball up he hits it harder than almost everyone on the team. His issue is that his at bats are fucking TERRIBLE. His mental breaks after the first pitch. Watches a fastball right down the tube, swings at off speed way out of the zone... great now you are at 0-2 and have already mentally folded. The at bat is over at that point.

    Someone just needs to slap him and tell him to play fucking baseball and not hero ball.

    Hitting is 99% mental for guys who already have the tools. I agree completely that Kelenic is damaged goods as a Mariner now and there's a very slim chance he recovers. Get him hot at Tacoma and trade him has been my take on this since he was sent down.
    RoadDawg55
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 1,183
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    It's been very clear to me with Kelenic it is 100% mental. He has 2 or 3 instances where I have seen reports of him "changing his swing" because of the slump. Hes a MLB player, he doesn't need to be doing that. Tweaking stuff? Sure but changing your swing is just weird and reeks of finding an excuse why he hasn't been hitting.

    When Kelenic squares a ball up he hits it harder than almost everyone on the team. His issue is that his at bats are fucking TERRIBLE. His mental breaks after the first pitch. Watches a fastball right down the tube, swings at off speed way out of the zone... great now you are at 0-2 and have already mentally folded. The at bat is over at that point.

    Someone just needs to slap him and tell him to play fucking baseball and not hero ball.

    You just described an affliction referred to as "High School Harry"...take the first pitch heater for a strike, swing at shit in the dirt, and either swing out of the zone, or take a cock-shot for strike three.

    He's chasing hits, rather than trusting his process, and that is completely mental..."I struck out last time, now I'm gonna hit a six-run homer". Last night, France took some horrible swings, just ridiculous...and ended the night 3-4. He let the last pitch go, and made the adjustment. That's a big league approach.

    I've worked with guys like Kelenic over the years, and am amazed in retrospect that I have any hair left...
    Swaye
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 1,183
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    chuck said:

    It's been very clear to me with Kelenic it is 100% mental. He has 2 or 3 instances where I have seen reports of him "changing his swing" because of the slump. Hes a MLB player, he doesn't need to be doing that. Tweaking stuff? Sure but changing your swing is just weird and reeks of finding an excuse why he hasn't been hitting.

    When Kelenic squares a ball up he hits it harder than almost everyone on the team. His issue is that his at bats are fucking TERRIBLE. His mental breaks after the first pitch. Watches a fastball right down the tube, swings at off speed way out of the zone... great now you are at 0-2 and have already mentally folded. The at bat is over at that point.

    Someone just needs to slap him and tell him to play fucking baseball and not hero ball.

    Hitting is 99% mental for guys who already have the tools. I agree completely that Kelenic is damaged goods as a Mariner now and there's a very slim chance he recovers. Get him hot at Tacoma and trade him has been my take on this since he was sent down.
    They won't trade him, because they gave up so much in the trade to get him (Baseball Econ 101). Diaz is a legit closer, and they had to pay a shit-load of Cano's salary to dump him...if Dip trades him now, that is admitting that he fucked up.

    One more jumped into my head about the mental approach to hitting. I spent some time years ago with Curt Schilling (I worked for his JUCO coach, and his JUCO catcher), and during a discussion drinking beer, I asked him who his favorite teammate was. I was surprised that he said Manny Ramirez.

    He explained that when he got to Boston, Manny hit a rocket and an outfielder made a great play on it. Manny came back to the dug with a big smile on his face...Schil (ILTCHS, IWILTD) was intrigued, expecting a helmet throwing melt-down, so he asked him what's up. Manny told him, "My job is to hit the ball hard, not to get hits. I control my swing, not the defense. I did my job, and that makes me happy"...He fucked up a lot, but that was the day I became a Man Ram fan...
    Swaye
  • RoadDawg55RoadDawg55 Member Posts: 29,354
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    Guys like Manny can be great in baseball because they are almost unbothered but anything. They just go and perform.

    Baseball is a weird sport in that guys can overwork themselves. If you want to become a better shooter in basketball, firing up hundreds of jumpers everyday will very likely lead to shooting better in games.

    Putting more work in the cages doesn’t always lead to more success in baseball and often seems to not have the intended benefit.

    I even experienced it in the baseball days. I was a good hitter but one year, I started struggling and was always rolling over curveballs and hitting weak grounders. I put in more work, but the slump continued.

    The next season, I started out red hot and it was like the struggles the year before never happened.
    Fishpo31greenbloodSwaye
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 1,183
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    The cage can be a blessing, but more often it is a curse. Several years ago, when guys were pressing or struggling and wanted extra BP, I started shutting them down for a day or 2. The hardest thing was pushing back against the "more is better" philosophy. A struggling hitter with a batting cage, unlimited baseballs, and an "I'll swing my way out of it" attitude is a recipe for failure.

    A standard baseball bucket holds 44 baseballs. I ask kids, "When is the last time you had a 44 pitch at-bat?". My iron law became 7>balls per round, and you MUST be working on a specific skill/technique...no "driving range, grip and rip"...

    I tell my players, first day, that the cage "is not a driving range, it is a laboratory". Then, to prove my point, (up until my late 40's), I would get in the cage and hit a bunch of balls out, turn and say "I am a fat old man, wasn't even a hitter in college, and I can hit balls out in BP. I can do that, but I can't play the game, and couldn't hit when I was your age".
    Swaye
  • greenbloodgreenblood Member Posts: 13,545
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    It's a lot like golf. Trying too hard to fix things hurts you more mentally than any mechanical help you get from it. You begin to start over thinking your at bats. And there is no amount of cage work that can fix that.
    Fishpo31chuckRoadDawg55
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 7,325
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    When my golf swing goes and my confidence is shot the last thing I need is range time. What i need is to find my comfort zone again, but on the course wjere i can visualize shots and keep at it until i execute them. Sometimes ill jaut go play the holes that set up well to my eye and/or have shots that I rarely botch. Nothing breeds success like success.

    I was the same way in baseball. When I lost it the surest way out would be to hit off of my dad. Using a machine or hitting in a cage never helped me much except for speeding up my eye in prep for harder throwers. By high school he had to use an L screen and throw from about 40', but it worked fine. Something about his delivery just smoothed me out. If I could get two long sessions out of him I'd almost always go on a tear. Too bad his arm was rarely up to it by the time I was that old.

    Same thing always worked best for me as a coach up through 16 year olds. The kids got used to how I threw and trusted me and 1-2 extensive sessions, on the field and with good balls, and I'd have most or all of my good hitters hot. Nothing breeds success in hitting like success.
    greenbloodRoadDawg55Fishpo31
  • greenbloodgreenblood Member Posts: 13,545
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    edited June 7
    chuck said:

    When my golf swing goes and my confidence is shot the last thing I need is range time. What i need is to find my comfort zone again, but on the course wjere i can visualize shots and keep at it until i execute them. Sometimes ill jaut go play the holes that set up well to my eye and/or have shots that I rarely botch. Nothing breeds success like success.

    I was the same way in baseball. When I lost it the surest way out would be to hit off of my dad. Using a machine or hitting in a cage never helped me much except for speeding up my eye in prep for harder throwers. By high school he had to use an L screen and throw from about 40', but it worked fine. Something about his delivery just smoothed me out. If I could get two long sessions out of him I'd almost always go on a tear. Too bad his arm was rarely up to it by the time I was that old.

    Same thing always worked best for me as a coach up through 16 year olds. The kids got used to how I threw and trusted me and 1-2 extensive sessions, on the field and with good balls, and I'd have most or all of my good hitters hot. Nothing breeds success in hitting like success.

    Confidence is 80% of it for sure. You need power, twitch, and control to get to the next level. But without confidence, you have a hard time even making decent contact.
    chuckFishpo31
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 1,183
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    I got tired of being “King of the Range”…beating balls all the time, and going out and posting a shit score. I started playing more, and pounding much less, and, Voila, my scores came down. Worked for me, but it really is individual. I stand by the statement that more is not going to fix it, but quality, concentrated reps will. It is nice that I no longer have to replace my grips 2x per year. I am still nails off of an astroturf pad, just can’t find any courses that are turf…
    chuck
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 1,183
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    edited June 8
    It reminded me of hiring a hitting coach, just out of pro ball. First day in the cages with him, it was 7 hacks and out, and he was throwing. A guy gets in, barrels the first pitch, and he tells the kid “Get out”. Kid asked why, and he responded with “You can’t hit it better than that. If you go for more, you’ll fuck it up”…

    EDIT: Our mantra became “BUGTFO”…Barrel up and GTFO…
    chuck
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 7,325
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    Fishpo31 said:

    It reminded me of hiring a hitting coach, just out of pro ball. First day in the cages with him, it was 7 hacks and out, and he was throwing. A guy gets in, barrels the first pitch, and he tells the kid “Get out”. Kid asked why, and he responded with “You can’t hit it better than that. If you go for more, you’ll fuck it up”…

    EDIT: Our mantra became “BUGTFO”…Barrel up and GTFO…

    I've thrown a lot of rushed sessions like that...pimp meatballs in there until they jammer one and "NEXT!". Id go through the whole roster like that 4 or 5 times on the day before games sometimes and it worked like magic for the kids who were already in or coming into a groove.

    You can't turn around someone who is struggling like that though, at least not teenagers. They usually need to keep swinging until theyre barelling every pitch like machines and they need to see the ball fly, not die in a net.

    I know younger teens playing Little League, Babe Ruth and travel ball were not really the topic, but that's the limit of my coaching experience.
    Fishpo31
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 1,183
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    You are correct with the yung’uns. College and some hs kids will hit all day and night if you let them, and have access to an arm or machine. Pro’s don’t do this, because they know. Doing this, especially when struggling, reinforces the flaws that cause the struggles, IMO…I would bet that Kelenic was a big-time cage rat, and with his make up, prolly still is.

    That was the origin of the 7> rule. They can’t physically or mentally stay in it beyond 7 pitches, and then it deteriorates. Get in, feel good, get out…
    chuck
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 7,325
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    I think if they keep taking 2 out of 3 they'll catch the Astros sometime around May, 2023.

    Good to win series especially against good teams, but they need a win streak sometime.
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 1,183
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    chuck said:

    I think if they keep taking 2 out of 3 they'll catch the Astros sometime around May, 2023.

    Good to win series especially against good teams, but they need a win streak sometime.

    We(?) have gone through a bad streak...IF the M's are as good as we hoped, that will be it. The Astros will come back to us, but will we be there, is the question for me. Every good team goes through at least one rough patch, if not more. 2 weeks ago the Angels were going to run away with it...
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 7,325
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    Fishpo31 said:

    chuck said:

    I think if they keep taking 2 out of 3 they'll catch the Astros sometime around May, 2023.

    Good to win series especially against good teams, but they need a win streak sometime.

    We(?) have gone through a bad streak...IF the M's are as good as we hoped, that will be it. The Astros will come back to us, but will we be there, is the question for me. Every good team goes through at least one rough patch, if not more. 2 weeks ago the Angels were going to run away with it...
    The Ms have had solid stretches and they've had a horrific slump. What they haven't had yet is a streak. They haven't had more than two hitters hot at any one time yet. There's a lot rhey haven't done yet but they're still in decent position. They have a way better lineup and rotation than last season.

    I think it's still coming. The Angels have shit pitching. An injury or two in the lineup and they could find themselves back with Oakland at the end.
    Fishpo31
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