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Mariners Baby!

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  • phineasphineas Member Posts: 4,732
    i say get the astros out of the way as soon as possible. theres no way around them. either get swept outta there immediately or do the unthinkable.
  • LaZorisLaZoris Member Posts: 1,722 Standard Supporter
    I believe Cleveland went 21-4 in September or something close to that. It's looking more and more like M's @ Jays to start
  • FireTheJanitorFireTheJanitor Member Posts: 1,483
    Favorite moment of Game 1 is Springer wearing that pitch on the hand 🤷🏼‍♂️
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 11,029 Swaye's Wigwam

    Favorite moment of Game 1 is Springer wearing that pitch on the hand 🤷🏼‍♂️

    I wanted an out there but part of me was cheering
  • RoadDawg55RoadDawg55 Member Posts: 30,123
    chuck said:

    Favorite moment of Game 1 is Springer wearing that pitch on the hand 🤷🏼‍♂️

    I wanted an out there but part of me was cheering
    It’s better to have him banged up. He’s a dangerous hitter when he’s on.
  • CuntWaffleCuntWaffle Member Posts: 22,499
    Amazing game today. Castillo is a dog.
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 11,029 Swaye's Wigwam

    chuck said:

    Favorite moment of Game 1 is Springer wearing that pitch on the hand 🤷🏼‍♂️

    I wanted an out there but part of me was cheering
    It’s better to have him banged up. He’s a dangerous hitter when he’s on.
    That one is going to hurt tomorrow for sure.

    Amazing game today. Castillo is a dog.

    Rhe amazing thing to me is that a guy can ever get beat with stuff like that.
  • phineasphineas Member Posts: 4,732
    a castillo munoz 1-2 is disgusting
  • FireTheJanitorFireTheJanitor Member Posts: 1,483

    Favorite moment of Game 1 is Springer wearing that pitch on the hand 🤷🏼‍♂️

    Favorite moment of Game 2 is Springer dying? on the field
  • phineasphineas Member Posts: 4,732
    i wonder what had munoz (seemingly) shook yesterday, or if he was just tired. kinda looked like his confidence was a little shaky, but he got through it.
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 11,029 Swaye's Wigwam
    phineas said:

    i wonder what had munoz (seemingly) shook yesterday, or if he was just tired. kinda looked like his confidence was a little shaky, but he got through it.

    He has outings like that because his fastball is just something to show but isn't a reliable strike or out pitch. If he had even fair command over his fastball he'd all but eliminate bad outings.

    He should look at what Gilbert did last season. His breaking stuff wasn't reliable so he focused on locating his fastball and threw it like 65% of the time. He became a hell of a pitcher in the process and that was with a fastball nowhere near as crazy as what Munoz has.
  • CuntWaffleCuntWaffle Member Posts: 22,499
    1.0.3. With tail. What.The.Fucking.Fuck.
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 2,417
    phineas said:

    i wonder what had munoz (seemingly) shook yesterday, or if he was just tired. kinda looked like his confidence was a little shaky, but he got through it.

    Couple things (speculating)...2 days in a row, on the big stage. His slider is being called the best pitch in the game right now. 103 not withstanding, he's a two-pitch guy, and MLB hitters can hit 103 IF they are sitting on it. 2 pitches means for hitters, you pick one and if you are right, don't miss it. The slider looks identical to the FB out of his hand, at 90-93. If you sit slider and get the heater, no shot, and vise-versa. It is a guessing game, which is why you see so many guys with 97+ go top shelf, and there are a million foul balls. The hitters are good enough, with their "2 strike emergency hack" to repeatedly foul that shit off. I read he was throwing almost 60% sliders, at the behest of the M's analytics guys...you can only do that with the big FB to back it up.
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 11,029 Swaye's Wigwam
    edited October 2022
    Fishpo31 said:

    phineas said:

    i wonder what had munoz (seemingly) shook yesterday, or if he was just tired. kinda looked like his confidence was a little shaky, but he got through it.

    Couple things (speculating)...2 days in a row, on the big stage. His slider is being called the best pitch in the game right now. 103 not withstanding, he's a two-pitch guy, and MLB hitters can hit 103 IF they are sitting on it. 2 pitches means for hitters, you pick one and if you are right, don't miss it. The slider looks identical to the FB out of his hand, at 90-93. If you sit slider and get the heater, no shot, and vise-versa. It is a guessing game, which is why you see so many guys with 97+ go top shelf, and there are a million foul balls. The hitters are good enough, with their "2 strike emergency hack" to repeatedly foul that shit off. I read he was throwing almost 60% sliders, at the behest of the M's analytics guys...you can only do that with the big FB to back it up.
    I'm surprised it's only 60%. Tjat seems reasonable to me. I wanted to know but hadn't gotten around to looking it up. It just shows that I've watched a limited sample.

    Fastballs have been few and far between when I have watched though. I've seen him throw one out of 13 pitches in a game where he was scuffling. It's obvious that he doesn't have confidence in it in tough spots.

    I'm not proposing he flip it or even change the ratio. He Golbert example was simply to show that a good fastball, located well, can be a do it all pitch. Munoz has something different rhan a good fastball to boot. I'm just saying his fastball command is an "opportunity for improvement" going forward.
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 2,417
    chuck said:

    Fishpo31 said:

    phineas said:

    i wonder what had munoz (seemingly) shook yesterday, or if he was just tired. kinda looked like his confidence was a little shaky, but he got through it.

    Couple things (speculating)...2 days in a row, on the big stage. His slider is being called the best pitch in the game right now. 103 not withstanding, he's a two-pitch guy, and MLB hitters can hit 103 IF they are sitting on it. 2 pitches means for hitters, you pick one and if you are right, don't miss it. The slider looks identical to the FB out of his hand, at 90-93. If you sit slider and get the heater, no shot, and vise-versa. It is a guessing game, which is why you see so many guys with 97+ go top shelf, and there are a million foul balls. The hitters are good enough, with their "2 strike emergency hack" to repeatedly foul that shit off. I read he was throwing almost 60% sliders, at the behest of the M's analytics guys...you can only do that with the big FB to back it up.
    I'm surprised it's only 60%. Tjat seems reasonable to me. I wanted to know but hadn't gotten around to looking it up. It just shows that I've watched a limited sample.

    Fastballs have been few and far between when I have watched though. I've seen him throw one out of 13 pitches in a game where he was scuffling. It's obvious that he doesn't have confidence in it in tough spots.

    I'm not proposing he flip it or even change the ratio. He Golbert example was simply to show that a good fastball, located well, can be a do it all pitch. Munoz has something different rhan a good fastball to boot. I'm just saying his fastball command is an "opportunity for improvement" going forward.
    He has gone really slider-heavy. He's been overthrowing the FB, jerking it to glove-side. His effectiveness is in that, at 98-103, the hitters have to gear up for it. There is no perceptible difference between his FB and slider mechanically, arm-speed, release point. They can't pick it up until it is too late, hence the swing-over-the-top of the slider. It is FB up, slider down. The have to respect the FB, which makes the slider so deadly. If I were prepping hitters to face Munoz, I would tell them to spit on the FB, and sit slider. I would be shocked if that isn't what the Astros will try to do...

    I was once told by a very respected guy that the entire game is predicated off of the hitter's fear of getting beat by a FB inside. It makes sense to me.

    When I was working, I saw Edgar face a young kid from Tampa. Four 100+ FB's, the third one at his dome. He struck out, looking bad (for Edgar). Next night, after one FB, Edgar took him off the facing of the upper deck. The kid (and catcher) didn't trust the breaking pitch. I saw it, and so did Edgar...
  • chuckchuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 11,029 Swaye's Wigwam
    edited October 2022
    MLB pitchers and their stuff are so advanced now that I'm pretty out of my depth, but I still cling in part to my own philosophy. That is that a guy with an overpowering fastball, no matter how good his breaking stuff, is risking damage every time he speeds up their bats by throwing it.

    Never throw offspeed stuff to bad hitters is what I preached as a coach and even as a teenager who caught about a third of games and did some pitching. Nothing annoyed me more than seeing a #9 hitter being gifted a slow breaking ball down the middle and spoiling what should be an automatic out.

    Obviously we're not talking about teenage knuckle curves here, but nasty, 90+mph sliders. It's not equivalent. I'd just like to see guys like Brash and Munoz get better FB command because they shouldn't even need to show those sliders so heavily against weak bats. Dot the corners at 98+ and make it quick.
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 2,417
    Did a little search...I'm not an analytics guy (I'm OLD), but I found numbers to back up what I've been seeing.
    Weighted On -Base-Average Allowed by Pitch Type:
    Four seam FB: .350
    Sinker: .349
    Cutter: .315
    Change up: .292
    Slider: .269
    Curveball: .263
    Splitter: .257

    Hitting approaches always focus on Fastball-First...They sit on it as much as possible, and if you are in the big leagues, you can hit the fastball, even 100+.

    In looking at pitcher spray charts, for a good/great performance, the fastballs are grouped in specific areas:
    Four-seam FB: Outside edge, and top of the zone. Miss in the zone, it gets hit, often hard
    Two seamer/Sinker: Bottom of the zone, down and in for same-side, swing-back and on-to-off the plate for opposite side, depending on shape.

    The life on the 4-seamer has changed it a lot...Castillo's 4 seamer runs arm side hard, his 2 seamer sinks.

    I agree that Brash and Munoz need to tighten up the FB command, a lot like Gilbert / Kirby...when they can dot the outside corner, they are really tough to square up. The out pitch is the slider, but they gotta paint with the FB to get there.

    Your comment about bad hitters reminds me of what my dad told me when I was about 12...The Three Nevers: Never play cards with a man named Doc, never eat at a place called Mom's, and never throw a change up to shitty hitter.
  • Bob_CBob_C Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 10,524 Swaye's Wigwam
    Fishpo31 said:

    Did a little search...I'm not an analytics guy (I'm OLD), but I found numbers to back up what I've been seeing.
    Weighted On -Base-Average Allowed by Pitch Type:
    Four seam FB: .350
    Sinker: .349
    Cutter: .315
    Change up: .292
    Slider: .269
    Curveball: .263
    Splitter: .257

    Hitting approaches always focus on Fastball-First...They sit on it as much as possible, and if you are in the big leagues, you can hit the fastball, even 100+.

    In looking at pitcher spray charts, for a good/great performance, the fastballs are grouped in specific areas:
    Four-seam FB: Outside edge, and top of the zone. Miss in the zone, it gets hit, often hard
    Two seamer/Sinker: Bottom of the zone, down and in for same-side, swing-back and on-to-off the plate for opposite side, depending on shape.

    The life on the 4-seamer has changed it a lot...Castillo's 4 seamer runs arm side hard, his 2 seamer sinks.

    I agree that Brash and Munoz need to tighten up the FB command, a lot like Gilbert / Kirby...when they can dot the outside corner, they are really tough to square up. The out pitch is the slider, but they gotta paint with the FB to get there.

    Your comment about bad hitters reminds me of what my dad told me when I was about 12...The Three Nevers: Never play cards with a man named Doc, never eat at a place called Mom's, and never throw a change up to shitty hitter.

    I’ll take your scouts eye on it, but that data doesn’t really tell you anything. More fastballs in hitters counts, less breaking stuff. Hitters chase stuff in pitchers counts.
  • Fishpo31Fishpo31 Member Posts: 2,417
    Bob_C said:

    Fishpo31 said:

    Did a little search...I'm not an analytics guy (I'm OLD), but I found numbers to back up what I've been seeing.
    Weighted On -Base-Average Allowed by Pitch Type:
    Four seam FB: .350
    Sinker: .349
    Cutter: .315
    Change up: .292
    Slider: .269
    Curveball: .263
    Splitter: .257

    Hitting approaches always focus on Fastball-First...They sit on it as much as possible, and if you are in the big leagues, you can hit the fastball, even 100+.

    In looking at pitcher spray charts, for a good/great performance, the fastballs are grouped in specific areas:
    Four-seam FB: Outside edge, and top of the zone. Miss in the zone, it gets hit, often hard
    Two seamer/Sinker: Bottom of the zone, down and in for same-side, swing-back and on-to-off the plate for opposite side, depending on shape.

    The life on the 4-seamer has changed it a lot...Castillo's 4 seamer runs arm side hard, his 2 seamer sinks.

    I agree that Brash and Munoz need to tighten up the FB command, a lot like Gilbert / Kirby...when they can dot the outside corner, they are really tough to square up. The out pitch is the slider, but they gotta paint with the FB to get there.

    Your comment about bad hitters reminds me of what my dad told me when I was about 12...The Three Nevers: Never play cards with a man named Doc, never eat at a place called Mom's, and never throw a change up to shitty hitter.

    I’ll take your scouts eye on it, but that data doesn’t really tell you anything. More fastballs in hitters counts, less breaking stuff. Hitters chase stuff in pitchers counts.
    I think that some of it gets lost in how hard guys throw now. My point was that good hitters hit fastballs, no matter the velocity or count. I have been seeing pitchers with incredible stuff, mostly starters, pitch backwards for a while now. Off speed pitches in hitters counts, FB when ahead in counts. You never saw that 10 years ago. Musgrove did it big time against the Mets. 0-0 and 3-0 is no longer pump a 4 seamer in for a gift strike. Now you see a lot of cutters in those situations.

    FB is used to paint, steal a strike (located), or in chase counts. From my eye, hitters are chasing fewer breaking balls now, but do chase the high heat.

    The pen guys now throw their out pitch predominately, with the FB as a set-up. They don't come off of it, even at 3-2. Munoz and Diaz, for as hard as they throw, lean on the slider, which Diaz didn't have when with the M's.

    It reminded me of Trevor Hoffman. He would pipe two 84-86 fastballs for strikes, because everyone sat on his change up. It was so good, when they got it with two strikes, it was over.

    Good stuff!
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