America's greatest MUST WIN military victory of all time?

YellowSnow

YouKnowIt

Saratoga - 1777

only revolutionary war battles should be included in the poll... WW2 ..we still be USA ... just not US OF MF A ... Civil war ... nah same as ww2 ... maybe Baltimore cuz the bloody brits wanted to take us back ...

YellowSnow

Gettysburg - 1863

YouKnowIt said:

only revolutionary war battles should be included in the poll... WW2 ..we still be USA ... just not US OF MF A ... Civil war ... nah same as ww2 ... maybe Baltimore cuz the bloody brits wanted to take us back ...

Agree on Revolutionary War vs WWII stuff. Midway was clearly out most consequential victory of WWII, but even if we had lost or had it been strategically inconclusive, the Japanese still never had the capacity to invade the west coast. They would have taken Hawaii at the most and we could have won it back in a year or two if needed.

Hard to say if the Revolution would have ended with a loss at Saratoga. It certainly gave us a chance to win by convincing France of the viability of our cause. In some ways Trenton was even more critical because Washington had been getting his ass kicked since Long Island earlier in the year.

Still, I have to go with Gettysburg. If Lee wins a major victory in Pennsylvania, it probably would have been politically impossible for the North to carry on the war, in spite of Grant's victory at Vicksburg.

IPukeOregonGrellow

Write-in Option

YellowSnow said:

YouKnowIt said:

only revolutionary war battles should be included in the poll... WW2 ..we still be USA ... just not US OF MF A ... Civil war ... nah same as ww2 ... maybe Baltimore cuz the bloody brits wanted to take us back ...

Agree on Revolutionary War vs WWII stuff. Midway was clearly out most consequential victory of WWII, but even if we had lost or had it been strategically inconclusive, the Japanese still never had the capacity to invade the west coast. They would have taken Hawaii at the most and we could have won it back in a year or two if needed.

Hard to say if the Revolution would have ended with a loss at Saratoga. It certainly gave us a chance to win by convincing France of the viability of our cause. In some ways Trenton was even more critical because Washington had been getting his ass kicked since Long Island earlier in the year.

Still, I have to go with Gettysburg. If Lee wins a major victory in Pennsylvania, it probably would have been politically impossible for the North to carry on the war, in spite of Grant's victory at Vicksburg.

Midway wasn't about land as much as it was about the Japanese wanting to wipe out the carriers they missed at Pearl Harbor. If they do that, America doesn't have the firepower to beat Japan. As it turned out, Japan hosed themselves by getting their carrier fleet wiped out in five minutes.

Gettysburg was great, but it was Lee throwing a wild haymaker punch that he knew he had little chance of landing.

I'd vote Antietam though. No victory there, odds are Lee takes most of Maryland and possibly DC. Also, No Emancipation Proclamation, no true setting the playing field of what the Civil War is about, and the SEC wins another Natty.

YellowSnow

Gettysburg - 1863

IPukeOregonGrellow said:

YellowSnow said:

YouKnowIt said:

only revolutionary war battles should be included in the poll... WW2 ..we still be USA ... just not US OF MF A ... Civil war ... nah same as ww2 ... maybe Baltimore cuz the bloody brits wanted to take us back ...

Agree on Revolutionary War vs WWII stuff. Midway was clearly out most consequential victory of WWII, but even if we had lost or had it been strategically inconclusive, the Japanese still never had the capacity to invade the west coast. They would have taken Hawaii at the most and we could have won it back in a year or two if needed.

Hard to say if the Revolution would have ended with a loss at Saratoga. It certainly gave us a chance to win by convincing France of the viability of our cause. In some ways Trenton was even more critical because Washington had been getting his ass kicked since Long Island earlier in the year.

Still, I have to go with Gettysburg. If Lee wins a major victory in Pennsylvania, it probably would have been politically impossible for the North to carry on the war, in spite of Grant's victory at Vicksburg.

Midway wasn't about land as much as it was about the Japanese wanting to wipe out the carriers they missed at Pearl Harbor. If they do that, America doesn't have the firepower to beat Japan. As it turned out, Japan hosed themselves by getting their carrier fleet wiped out in five minutes.

Gettysburg was great, but it was Lee throwing a wild haymaker punch that he knew he had little chance of landing.

I'd vote Antietam though. No victory there, odds are Lee takes most of Maryland and possibly DC. Also, No Emancipation Proclamation, no true setting the playing field of what the Civil War is about, and the SEC wins another Natty.

Disagree on both points. A loss at Midway would have been disastrous and Japan's defensive perimeter would have been much stronger with all or most of our carriers sunk. But those ships and pilots were all replaceable in time. We put something like 24 Essex class carriers to sea before the end of the war and thousands of well trained pilots. Where as Japan had like 1/10 th of our industrial capacity and could never recover once they lost those 4 flat tops.

Antietam was still early in the game. It would have delayed the Emancipation Proclamation but short of his army marching on Washington, the body counts which so demoralized the North hadn't piled up to the extent they had by mid 1863 (post Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville).

YouKnowIt

Saratoga - 1777

YellowSnow said:

YouKnowIt said:

only revolutionary war battles should be included in the poll... WW2 ..we still be USA ... just not US OF MF A ... Civil war ... nah same as ww2 ... maybe Baltimore cuz the bloody brits wanted to take us back ...

Agree on Revolutionary War vs WWII stuff. Midway was clearly out most consequential victory of WWII, but even if we had lost or had it been strategically inconclusive, the Japanese still never had the capacity to invade the west coast. They would have taken Hawaii at the most and we could have won it back in a year or two if needed.

Hard to say if the Revolution would have ended with a loss at Saratoga. It certainly gave us a chance to win by convincing France of the viability of our cause. In some ways Trenton was even more critical because Washington had been getting his ass kicked since Long Island earlier in the year.

Still, I have to go with Gettysburg. If Lee wins a major victory in Pennsylvania, it probably would have been politically impossible for the North to carry on the war, in spite of Grant's victory at Vicksburg.

I think the south would realize they needed the north and got back together with them...much like a trainer that keeps coming back to get "abused"

1to392831weretaken

Write-in Option

Durkadurkistan - 1986

The new MIGs carried the exoset anti-ship missile, which could have easily taken out a whole carrier group, launching the globe into World War III. Luckily, the heroics of Lt. Pete "Maverick" Mitchell, son of legendary fighter pilot Duke Mitchell, saved the day, as he took the shot when was goddamned good and ready, downed three bogies, fucked Kelly McGillis, and staved off a global conflict that would have surely left tens of millions dead or infected with gonorrhea.

oregonblitzkrieg

Normandy - 1944

Normandy. Losing to the Krauts was not an option. They had an extremely detailed plan (that included even small American towns and cities) how they would invade and subdue America.

IPukeOregonGrellow

Write-in Option

YellowSnow said:

IPukeOregonGrellow said:

YellowSnow said:

YouKnowIt said:

only revolutionary war battles should be included in the poll... WW2 ..we still be USA ... just not US OF MF A ... Civil war ... nah same as ww2 ... maybe Baltimore cuz the bloody brits wanted to take us back ...

Agree on Revolutionary War vs WWII stuff. Midway was clearly out most consequential victory of WWII, but even if we had lost or had it been strategically inconclusive, the Japanese still never had the capacity to invade the west coast. They would have taken Hawaii at the most and we could have won it back in a year or two if needed.

Hard to say if the Revolution would have ended with a loss at Saratoga. It certainly gave us a chance to win by convincing France of the viability of our cause. In some ways Trenton was even more critical because Washington had been getting his ass kicked since Long Island earlier in the year.

Still, I have to go with Gettysburg. If Lee wins a major victory in Pennsylvania, it probably would have been politically impossible for the North to carry on the war, in spite of Grant's victory at Vicksburg.

Midway wasn't about land as much as it was about the Japanese wanting to wipe out the carriers they missed at Pearl Harbor. If they do that, America doesn't have the firepower to beat Japan. As it turned out, Japan hosed themselves by getting their carrier fleet wiped out in five minutes.

Gettysburg was great, but it was Lee throwing a wild haymaker punch that he knew he had little chance of landing.

I'd vote Antietam though. No victory there, odds are Lee takes most of Maryland and possibly DC. Also, No Emancipation Proclamation, no true setting the playing field of what the Civil War is about, and the SEC wins another Natty.

Disagree on both points. A loss at Midway would have been disastrous and Japan's defensive perimeter would have been much stronger with all or most of our carriers sunk. But those ships and pilots were all replaceable in time. We put something like 24 Essex class carriers to sea before the end of the war and thousands of well trained pilots. Where as Japan had like 1/10 th of our industrial capacity and could never recover once they lost those 4 flat tops.

Antietam was still early in the game. It would have delayed the Emancipation Proclamation but short of his army marching on Washington, the body counts which so demoralized the North hadn't piled up to the extent they had by mid 1863 (post Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville).

Hard disagree.

In 1942, it took 12-15 months to build one aircraft carrier. If Japan wiped out our? fleet, it would've been a minimum of two years before we? could have done anything in the Pacific, during which time Japan would take whatever land and resources they wanted. There may not be more of a spectacular backfire.

And Antietam was early. But the SEC needed it to be a quick war if they wanted to win. The goal of Antietam was flip Maryland and Kentucky, get England and France to recognize them and begin a march on Warshington. All of which went went up in flames.

YellowSnow

Gettysburg - 1863

IPukeOregonGrellow said:

YellowSnow said:

IPukeOregonGrellow said:

YellowSnow said:

YouKnowIt said:

only revolutionary war battles should be included in the poll... WW2 ..we still be USA ... just not US OF MF A ... Civil war ... nah same as ww2 ... maybe Baltimore cuz the bloody brits wanted to take us back ...

Agree on Revolutionary War vs WWII stuff. Midway was clearly out most consequential victory of WWII, but even if we had lost or had it been strategically inconclusive, the Japanese still never had the capacity to invade the west coast. They would have taken Hawaii at the most and we could have won it back in a year or two if needed.

Hard to say if the Revolution would have ended with a loss at Saratoga. It certainly gave us a chance to win by convincing France of the viability of our cause. In some ways Trenton was even more critical because Washington had been getting his ass kicked since Long Island earlier in the year.

Still, I have to go with Gettysburg. If Lee wins a major victory in Pennsylvania, it probably would have been politically impossible for the North to carry on the war, in spite of Grant's victory at Vicksburg.

Midway wasn't about land as much as it was about the Japanese wanting to wipe out the carriers they missed at Pearl Harbor. If they do that, America doesn't have the firepower to beat Japan. As it turned out, Japan hosed themselves by getting their carrier fleet wiped out in five minutes.

Gettysburg was great, but it was Lee throwing a wild haymaker punch that he knew he had little chance of landing.

I'd vote Antietam though. No victory there, odds are Lee takes most of Maryland and possibly DC. Also, No Emancipation Proclamation, no true setting the playing field of what the Civil War is about, and the SEC wins another Natty.

Disagree on both points. A loss at Midway would have been disastrous and Japan's defensive perimeter would have been much stronger with all or most of our carriers sunk. But those ships and pilots were all replaceable in time. We put something like 24 Essex class carriers to sea before the end of the war and thousands of well trained pilots. Where as Japan had like 1/10 th of our industrial capacity and could never recover once they lost those 4 flat tops.

Antietam was still early in the game. It would have delayed the Emancipation Proclamation but short of his army marching on Washington, the body counts which so demoralized the North hadn't piled up to the extent they had by mid 1863 (post Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville).

Hard disagree.

In 1942, it took 12-15 months to build one aircraft carrier. If Japan wiped out our? fleet, it would've been a minimum of two years before we? could have done anything in the Pacific, during which time Japan would take whatever land and resources they wanted. There may not be more of a spectacular backfire.

And Antietam was early. But the SEC needed it to be a quick war if they wanted to win. The goal of Antietam was flip Maryland and Kentucky, get England and France to recognize them and begin a march on Warshington. All of which went went up in flames.

We had already laid down like 5 Essex class carriers well before Midway and they were coming on line by mid 1943. I think a loss at Midway losses us HI and Australia perhaps. But if we wanted to win and I think we did our industrial might would have still prevailed.

I

PurpleJ

Trenton - 1776

Imagine thinking the slaughter of thousands of Americans was a victory for this country.

dnc

PurpleJ said:

Imagine thinking the slaughter of thousands of Americans was a victory for this country.

#SMOD2020

YellowSnow

Gettysburg - 1863

PurpleJ said:

Imagine thinking the slaughter of thousands of Americans was a victory for this country.

They were traitors.

PurpleJ

Trenton - 1776

YellowSnow said:

PurpleJ said:

Imagine thinking the slaughter of thousands of Americans was a victory for this country.

They were traitors.

Traders actually, but either way half the country lost. That’s a tie at best and a loss when you consider the long term ramifications.

dnc

PurpleJ said:

YellowSnow said:

PurpleJ said:

Imagine thinking the slaughter of thousands of Americans was a victory for this country.

They were traitors.

Traders actually, but either way half the country lost. That’s a tie at best and a loss when you consider the long term ramifications.

It was a massive win considering long term ramifications.

PurpleJ

Trenton - 1776

dnc said:

PurpleJ said:

YellowSnow said:

PurpleJ said:

Imagine thinking the slaughter of thousands of Americans was a victory for this country.

They were traitors.

Traders actually, but either way half the country lost. That’s a tie at best and a loss when you consider the long term ramifications.

It was a massive win considering long term ramifications.

We can agree to disagree. You don’t even have to secede because I will let you disagree. I believe in freedom.

USMChawk

Write-in Option

My smart ass answer is Donald Trump, 2016.

Otherwise, Gettysburg.

DerekJohnson

Normandy - 1944

USMChawk said:

My smart ass answer is Donald Trump, 2016.

Otherwise, Gettysburg.

Judges would have also accepted Grenada

Swaye

Write-in Option

Bunker Hill. Even though we technically lost, we killed twice our number of dirty Brits, and this battle is what made Americans really believe we could do it. 'Murica!

Yes I know it was a MUST WIN question. Again, we lost the hill, but killed twice our number lost. And it won the loyalty of the public. So it's a win.

Doog_de_Jour

Gettysburg - 1863

Swaye said:

Bunker Hill. Even though we technically lost, we killed twice our number of dirty Brits, and this battle is what made Americans really believe we could do it. 'Murica!

Yes I know it was a MUST WIN question. Again, we lost the hill, but killed twice our number lost. And it won the loyalty of the public. So it's a win.

Yeah, I thought of this battle too, as it was clearly a moral victory. Would have been chinteresting if the Americans had been able to score some more ammunition.

Either way it made USC the British respect us!

YellowSnow

Gettysburg - 1863

Swaye said:

Bunker Hill. Even though we technically lost, we killed twice our number of dirty Brits, and this battle is what made Americans really believe we could do it. 'Murica!

Yes I know it was a MUST WIN question. Again, we lost the hill, but killed twice our number lost. And it won the loyalty of the public. So it's a win.

Event though it was fought on Breed's Hill and a moral victory, but still...

I think Trenton was our most important Revolutionary War win. Sure, it was a sneak attack on drunken krauts, but Worshington had been on a Sarkesque skid all through 1776 and they w/o a win for moral all might have been lost.

ThomasFremont

Normandy - 1944

Washington just had to stay alive and avoid a rout. By evading and Sarking his way to a spirit of ‘76 record, he allowed the SEC to get it’s guys in there and roll Cornwallis.

YellowSnow

Gettysburg - 1863

IPukeOregonGrellow said:

YellowSnow said:

IPukeOregonGrellow said:

YellowSnow said:

YouKnowIt said:

only revolutionary war battles should be included in the poll... WW2 ..we still be USA ... just not US OF MF A ... Civil war ... nah same as ww2 ... maybe Baltimore cuz the bloody brits wanted to take us back ...

Agree on Revolutionary War vs WWII stuff. Midway was clearly out most consequential victory of WWII, but even if we had lost or had it been strategically inconclusive, the Japanese still never had the capacity to invade the west coast. They would have taken Hawaii at the most and we could have won it back in a year or two if needed.

Hard to say if the Revolution would have ended with a loss at Saratoga. It certainly gave us a chance to win by convincing France of the viability of our cause. In some ways Trenton was even more critical because Washington had been getting his ass kicked since Long Island earlier in the year.

Still, I have to go with Gettysburg. If Lee wins a major victory in Pennsylvania, it probably would have been politically impossible for the North to carry on the war, in spite of Grant's victory at Vicksburg.

Midway wasn't about land as much as it was about the Japanese wanting to wipe out the carriers they missed at Pearl Harbor. If they do that, America doesn't have the firepower to beat Japan. As it turned out, Japan hosed themselves by getting their carrier fleet wiped out in five minutes.

Gettysburg was great, but it was Lee throwing a wild haymaker punch that he knew he had little chance of landing.

I'd vote Antietam though. No victory there, odds are Lee takes most of Maryland and possibly DC. Also, No Emancipation Proclamation, no true setting the playing field of what the Civil War is about, and the SEC wins another Natty.

Disagree on both points. A loss at Midway would have been disastrous and Japan's defensive perimeter would have been much stronger with all or most of our carriers sunk. But those ships and pilots were all replaceable in time. We put something like 24 Essex class carriers to sea before the end of the war and thousands of well trained pilots. Where as Japan had like 1/10 th of our industrial capacity and could never recover once they lost those 4 flat tops.

Antietam was still early in the game. It would have delayed the Emancipation Proclamation but short of his army marching on Washington, the body counts which so demoralized the North hadn't piled up to the extent they had by mid 1863 (post Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville).

Hard disagree.

In 1942, it took 12-15 months to build one aircraft carrier. If Japan wiped out our? fleet, it would've been a minimum of two years before we? could have done anything in the Pacific, during which time Japan would take whatever land and resources they wanted. There may not be more of a spectacular backfire.

And Antietam was early. But the SEC needed it to be a quick war if they wanted to win. The goal of Antietam was flip Maryland and Kentucky, get England and France to recognize them and begin a march on Warshington. All of which went went up in flames.

People forget that Antietam was a win of the ACC. Vicksburg, Shilo, Atlanta, etc, were the Tuff wins in SEC country.

I love that we have so many history nerds at HCH. Warms my heart.

Swaye

Write-in Option

I like battle hawt talk.

Swaye

Write-in Option

Can we talk about the greatest battle ever fought on American soil?



Suck it Custer.

ThomasFremont

Normandy - 1944

If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.

YellowSnow

Gettysburg - 1863

ThomasFremont said:

If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.

The Soviets would have still ended up in Berlin even if Overlord failed. Probably not by April 1945 but it was still going to happen. Consider that 90% of all Whermacht casualties in the war were inflicted by the Soviets. The importance of Normandy was that it enabled us to keep much of Europe out of the Soviet sphere.

YellowSnow

Gettysburg - 1863

Swaye said:

Can we talk about the greatest battle ever fought on American soil?



Suck it Custer.

@swaye you had once chance to kill @creepycoug on the beaches and make sure none of those 3 boats got back to Europe with the trip report. After that, it was game over.

ThomasFremont

Normandy - 1944

YellowSnow said:

ThomasFremont said:

If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.

The Soviets would have still ended up in Berlin even if Overlord failed. Probably not by April 1945 but it was still going to happen. Consider that 90% of all Whermacht casualties in the war were inflicted by the Soviets. The importance of Normandy was that it enabled us to keep much of Europe out of the Soviet sphere.

I don’t know. A massive defeat at Normandy might have totally stalled the Allies. Second guessing is a bitch. Just look at Africa and Italy.

Meanwhile, the Nazis would have been riding high, had more time and resources to devote to the East.

Let’s say the Soviets roll them anyways (most likely)...if we aren’t meeting them in Berlin, do they stop? I doubt it. Now we are maybe meeting them in Paris? Do we stalemate or do we fight them now that they’ve violated our alliance by invading France (under the pretense of wiping out remaining Nazi units/leaders)? Either way, seems much worse than the way it played out.

PurpleThrobber

Write-in Option

No Battle of New Orleans, no Old Hickory. No Old Hickory, no Trail of Tears. No Trail of Tears, no @Swaye descendants hooking up. No @Swaye, just a bunch of old rich white guys posting here.

Andrew Jackson founded motherfucking Hardcore Husky. No two ways about it.

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.

[Chorus:]
We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

[Chorus]

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

We fired our cannon 'til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

YellowSnow

Gettysburg - 1863

PurpleThrobber said:

No Battle of New Orleans, no Old Hickory. No Old Hickory, no Trail of Tears. No Trail of Tears, no @Swaye descendants hooking up. No @Swaye, just a bunch of old rich white guys posting here.

Andrew Jackson founded motherfucking Hardcore Husky. No two ways about it.

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.

[Chorus:]
We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

[Chorus]

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

We fired our cannon 'til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YL3gIFRAnI