America's greatest MUST WIN military victory of all time?
Comments
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And they would have lost with themBearsWiin said:
Canada stood with England from the beginning of both world warsRaceBannon said:England would be speaking German
Gee we could be Canada!!!!!! -
Write-in Option
People forget we're 0-1-1 vs. Canada.RaceBannon said:
And they would have lost with themBearsWiin said:
Canada stood with England from the beginning of both world warsRaceBannon said:England would be speaking German
Gee we could be Canada!!!!!!
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Saratoga - 1777
Try to keep up, old man. A Canada-like US would have stood with England from the beginning tooRaceBannon said:
And they would have lost with themBearsWiin said:
Canada stood with England from the beginning of both world warsRaceBannon said:England would be speaking German
Gee we could be Canada!!!!!! -
And lost with themBearsWiin said:
Try to keep up, old man. A Canada-like US would have stood with England from the beginning tooRaceBannon said:
And they would have lost with themBearsWiin said:
Canada stood with England from the beginning of both world warsRaceBannon said:England would be speaking German
Gee we could be Canada!!!!!!
Your utopia of soft faggots is not the USA that saved freedom -
Saratoga - 1777
BoB Mrrca Fuck Yeah POTDRaceBannon said:
And lost with themBearsWiin said:
Try to keep up, old man. A Canada-like US would have stood with England from the beginning tooRaceBannon said:
And they would have lost with themBearsWiin said:
Canada stood with England from the beginning of both world warsRaceBannon said:England would be speaking German
Gee we could be Canada!!!!!!
Your utopia of soft faggots is not the USA that saved freedom -
Trenton - 1776
From the beginning? We were busy sending Jews back up Europe. If Japan hadn't bombed Pearl Harbor we would have taken it up the ass through Mexico.BearsWiin said:
Try to keep up, old man. A Canada-like US would have stood with England from the beginning tooRaceBannon said:
And they would have lost with themBearsWiin said:
Canada stood with England from the beginning of both world warsRaceBannon said:England would be speaking German
Gee we could be Canada!!!!!! -
Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
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Trenton - 1776
I don't see you. Is professor emeritus Bannon in the school house?RaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school -
Gettysburg - 1863
We don't deal in hypothetical but IFL counter factual history arguing. The one @BearsWiin posed is an all time favorite, but it's full of semi truck sized holes that even Ahmed could find with no problem.RaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
1- It's a hell of a lot different freeing slaves on some Caribbean Islands and compensating their owners by Act of Parliament than the entirety of the Southern colonies in circa 1833. Freeing the Caribbean slaves was something like 40% of the entire British treasury's revenue in that year. As Race points out the cotton gin was invented well before 1833 and the BE had no problem importing massive amounts of slave picked cotton for their textile mills. Furthermore, if we? revolted over taxes in the 1760 and 70s, you think the south would have just gone along with an Act of Parliament like this peaceably? Doubtful.
2- Would America has ended up at the world's largest economy by the late 1870's if we stayed in the BE? Doubtful. We can bash jingoistic, messianic, Manifest Destiny all we want, but there was something unique in the American experience that wouldn't have been there if we stayed with Britain. The world was better of with Pax Americana succeeding Pax Britannica than it would have been other wise. -
Gettysburg - 1863
Antietam is a glaring omission and the win here played a decisive role on the diplomatic front vis-a-vis Europe. But the Civil War above all else was about attrition and the would the North being willing to sacrifice enough of its sons to kill enough rebs to compel their surrender. People forget that in the modern history no other nation sacrificed a higher percentage of its fighting age males in a war than the South in the Civil War other than Serbia in WWI. Germany and Sovs in WWII don't come close. The South wasn't giving up w/o a significant amount of boys in blue going home in pine boxes.BearsWiin said:Several on that list don't even deserve consideration. Vicksburg was big for a western theater battle, and very strategeric, but the war was going to be won back east. Atlanta? Christ. Baltimore? WTF? Even Gettysburg could have been a Union loss and still forced Lee to retreat because he wouldn't continue to have the manpower or logistical support to sustain an invasion. The argument for Antietam is stronger than any other Civil War battle, IMO.
I've made the poont many times that Midway was the most decisive 15 minutes in US military history, and that Normandy was a fucking overrated (thanks a fucking lot, Hanks and Spielberg) afterthought given what the Sovs were doing on the Eastern Front. But, really, none of those battles would have been fought had we? not turned the tide in the RevWar. Trenton was a feel-good sideshow, Yorktown was mop-up duty. Saratoga was the must-win, the tide-turner.
There are actually some interesting recent counterfactual books asking the querey of what would we be like had the British won the RevWar. Had we? lost, slavery probably have been abolished by the British 20 years later, no weird jingoist Manifest Destiny messianic mentality would have ingrained itself in the American collective consciousness, and we? likely would have gained independence like Canada did, later in the 19th century. A kinder, gentler version of ourselves, probably with universal health care instead of the prosperity gospel anti-brown 2A bullshit we have now
Hi Race!
Lee didn't have to continue an invasion of the North in 1863. He just had to continue the winning streak from Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville and Northern public opinion could very well have started to collapse. Remember, they don't call Antietam the "High water mark of the Confederacy" and there's no "Antietam Address". -
Saratoga - 1777
Love it or Leave it! POTDRaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school -
BearsWiin said:
Love it or Leave it! POTDRaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
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Write-in OptionRaceBannon said:
Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
Is that the time you had a threesome with Laura Ingalls and her sister Mary?
Respect.
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Saratoga - 1777
If Jared Diamond teaches us anything, it's that superior technology and organization win out, and that geography plays a huge part. "American" exceptionalism isn't as exceptional as you'd like to believe. Perhaps the most exceptional element was the successive waves of immigration that made industrialization and expansion possible - I don't know that an English-controlled America would have attracted/welcomed so many.YellowSnow said:
We don't deal in hypothetical but IFL counter factual history arguing. The one @BearsWiin posed is an all time favorite, but it's full of semi truck sized holes that even Ahmed could find with no problem.RaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
1- It's a hell of a lot different freeing slaves on some Caribbean Islands and compensating their owners by Act of Parliament than the entirety of the Southern colonies in circa 1833. Freeing the Caribbean slaves was something like 40% of the entire British treasury's revenue in that year. As Race points out the cotton gin was invented well before 1833 and the BE had no problem importing massive amounts of slave picked cotton for their textile mills. Furthermore, if we? revolted over taxes in the 1760 and 70s, you think the south would have just gone along with an Act of Parliament like this peaceably? Doubtful.
2- Would America has ended up at the world's largest economy by the late 1870's if we stayed in the BE? Doubtful. We can bash jingoistic, messianic, Manifest Destiny all we want, but there was something unique in the American experience that wouldn't have been there if we stayed with Britain. The world was better of with Pax Americana succeeding Pax Britannica than it would have been other wise. -
Gettysburg - 1863
I'm the #1 fan here of your fellow UCLA academic, Prof. Diamond. In this case, a key piece of the "experience" I'm referring to is the organization we set up. Free of Britain, we were able to go west and prosper. It wasn't pretty for the Indians and Messicans - history usually isn't fair- but we did become the greatest industrial power the world had ever scene which came in handy.BearsWiin said:
If Jared Diamond teaches us anything, it's that superior technology and organization win out, and that geography plays a huge part. "American" exceptionalism isn't as exceptional as you'd like to believe. Perhaps the most exceptional element was the successive waves of immigration that made industrialization and expansion possible - I don't know that an English-controlled America would have attracted/welcomed so many.YellowSnow said:
We don't deal in hypothetical but IFL counter factual history arguing. The one @BearsWiin posed is an all time favorite, but it's full of semi truck sized holes that even Ahmed could find with no problem.RaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
1- It's a hell of a lot different freeing slaves on some Caribbean Islands and compensating their owners by Act of Parliament than the entirety of the Southern colonies in circa 1833. Freeing the Caribbean slaves was something like 40% of the entire British treasury's revenue in that year. As Race points out the cotton gin was invented well before 1833 and the BE had no problem importing massive amounts of slave picked cotton for their textile mills. Furthermore, if we? revolted over taxes in the 1760 and 70s, you think the south would have just gone along with an Act of Parliament like this peaceably? Doubtful.
2- Would America has ended up at the world's largest economy by the late 1870's if we stayed in the BE? Doubtful. We can bash jingoistic, messianic, Manifest Destiny all we want, but there was something unique in the American experience that wouldn't have been there if we stayed with Britain. The world was better of with Pax Americana succeeding Pax Britannica than it would have been other wise. -
We don't deal in hypotheticals out here.
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BTW this is a live shot from Rancho Cucamonga this morning. Wish I had caught him in the lot. By the time I got the camera working you couldn't read the amazing amount of shit he has on his carRaceBannon said:BearsWiin said:
Love it or Leave it! POTDRaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
Like that mass shooter last year -
Normandy - 1944
So, a Trump voter?RaceBannon said:
BTW this is a live shot from Rancho Cucamonga this morning. Wish I had caught him in the lot. By the time I got the camera working you couldn't read the amazing amount of shit he has on his carRaceBannon said:BearsWiin said:
Love it or Leave it! POTDRaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
Like that mass shooter last year -
More labelsThomasFremont said:
So, a Trump voter?RaceBannon said:
BTW this is a live shot from Rancho Cucamonga this morning. Wish I had caught him in the lot. By the time I got the camera working you couldn't read the amazing amount of shit he has on his carRaceBannon said:BearsWiin said:
Love it or Leave it! POTDRaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
Like that mass shooter last year
Sad -
Normandy - 1944
If the label fits...RaceBannon said:
More labelsThomasFremont said:
So, a Trump voter?RaceBannon said:
BTW this is a live shot from Rancho Cucamonga this morning. Wish I had caught him in the lot. By the time I got the camera working you couldn't read the amazing amount of shit he has on his carRaceBannon said:BearsWiin said:
Love it or Leave it! POTDRaceBannon said:Exactly
There would have been a handful of US colonies because England gave Ohio and Kentucky and the frontier to the Natives for help in the Revolution. No manifest destiny as you said
France isn't selling Louisiana to England
Mexico extends up the West Coast to Canada and from Texas to the French Colony
England supports the SEC leaving because they want the cotton and don't give a fuck about how it is picked. Their noble abandonment of the slave trade in 1807 came after they brought 3 million of them here to fill their field and reproduce.
No one is sending anything to Europe in the 30's because Mexico aligns with Hitler and we have a continent wide war right here.
The US is the Big East in football after Miami and Virginia Tech left
We don't deal in hypotheticals and they taught history when I was in school. You want to hate America that's fine with me. My sister moved to England in 76 and never came back. She had the GUTS to live her conviction not whine about it with the girls in the gym.
Me at school
Like that mass shooter last year
Sad -
Write-in Option
Kurt Vonnegut was THERE (One of my all-time favorite novels, and author).YellowSnow said:
They are full of shit. We would have used it on Germany if needed. We? had not qualms about BBQ ing kraut civilians. In fact, the fire bombing of Dresden occurred well before LeMay started fire bombing Japan's cities.RaceBannon said:
My woke history taught me that the bomb was reserved for the yellow folks not the white folksYellowSnow said:
We can agree getting thwarted on the beaches of Normandy would have been a disaster. It's difficult to say how far the Soviets would have advanced. We had some leverage in the sense that they were still receiving massive lend lease aid from us. We know the bomb was ready by Aug 1945. Might Germany have received it first?ThomasFremont said:
I don’t know. A massive defeat at Normandy might have totally stalled the Allies. Second guessing is a bitch. Just look at Africa and Italy.YellowSnow said:
The Soviets would have still ended up in Berlin even if Overlord failed. Probably not by April 1945 but it was still going to happen. Consider that 90% of all Whermacht casualties in the war were inflicted by the Soviets. The importance of Normandy was that it enabled us to keep much of Europe out of the Soviet sphere.ThomasFremont said:If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.
Meanwhile, the Nazis would have been riding high, had more time and resources to devote to the East.
Let’s say the Soviets roll them anyways (most likely)...if we aren’t meeting them in Berlin, do they stop? I doubt it. Now we are maybe meeting them in Paris? Do we stalemate or do we fight them now that they’ve violated our alliance by invading France (under the pretense of wiping out remaining Nazi units/leaders)? Either way, seems much worse than the way it played out.
Probably because the Japs bombed us and we were still really pissed off
Or racist
