Why does Jordan get a pass for '95?
Comments
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I don't give a shit I love kemp. The air uptempo was a beautiful shoe. The air penny 2 was possibly the greatest shoe of all time.HuskiesADW said:You can look at their numbers per 100 possessions. Not a perfect statistic as there is too many variables to consider but it still gives a good rough estimate.
Kemp:
28.3 pts
16.6 reb
3.4 ast
2.3 stl
2.7 blk
4.9 tov
Kemp advanced stats:
.602 true shooting %
22.3 Win Shares
24.3 usage %
9.1 VORP (value over replacement player)
Griffin:
32.8 pts
12.2 reb
6.4 ast
1.5 stl
.8 blk
3.6 tov
Griffin advanced stats:
.569 true shooting %
21.2 Win Shares
28.7 usage %
8.4 VORP
So looking at the numbers both were very similar players. That said looking at the advanced stats Kemp was the better player during their age 24/25 seasons. Blake will probably have the better career because of coke and stuff though. -
And killed it in the Finals. He was only 25 and approaching the superstar level.RaceBannon said:In 96 Kemp had just outplayed Malone in the conference finals
Fuckin Wally Walker. The Mark Emmert of the Seattle Supersonics. -
Downtown Freddy Brown was one of the first Nike shoe guys in the 70's. That's why I bought my first pair. I was the only one in the Rec Center with Nikes.
I bought my step son a pair of Air Jordans for Christmas in 1985 which made him the coolest kid in school. To this day he still talks about that
Edit to say thankfully no one shot him to steal them -
No problem with that other than you could slide Charles to the 3 spot comfortably too.TierbsHsotBoobs said:
Charles Barkley >>> Karl MalonePurpleThrobber said:Kemp had about 3 great years.
The best power forward of the 90's was Malone and it's beyond FS to suggest otherwise.
Abundance.
But both are better than Kemp for Christ's sake. -
Of course. Had I wrote Kemp was at a Hall of Fame level in 1996 we could have avoided all this. He was at the top of his game and the second best player in the world at the end of the Finals.PurpleThrobber said:
No problem with that other than you could slide Charles to the 3 spot comfortably too.TierbsHsotBoobs said:
Charles Barkley >>> Karl MalonePurpleThrobber said:Kemp had about 3 great years.
The best power forward of the 90's was Malone and it's beyond FS to suggest otherwise.
Abundance.
But both are better than Kemp for Christ's sake.
But you don't get in for throwing it all away by the next season -
Shaq says hi.RaceBannon said:
Of course. Had I wrote Kemp was at a Hall of Fame level in 1996 we could have avoided all this. He was at the top of his game and the second best player in the world at the end of the Finals.PurpleThrobber said:
No problem with that other than you could slide Charles to the 3 spot comfortably too.TierbsHsotBoobs said:
Charles Barkley >>> Karl MalonePurpleThrobber said:Kemp had about 3 great years.
The best power forward of the 90's was Malone and it's beyond FS to suggest otherwise.
Abundance.
But both are better than Kemp for Christ's sake.
But you don't get in for throwing it all away by the next season -
From his couch watching the Finals?RoadDawg55 said:
Shaq says hi.RaceBannon said:
Of course. Had I wrote Kemp was at a Hall of Fame level in 1996 we could have avoided all this. He was at the top of his game and the second best player in the world at the end of the Finals.PurpleThrobber said:
No problem with that other than you could slide Charles to the 3 spot comfortably too.TierbsHsotBoobs said:
Charles Barkley >>> Karl MalonePurpleThrobber said:Kemp had about 3 great years.
The best power forward of the 90's was Malone and it's beyond FS to suggest otherwise.
Abundance.
But both are better than Kemp for Christ's sake.
But you don't get in for throwing it all away by the next season -
It's FS logic to call Kemp the 2nd best player in the world at the end of the finals. That's like saying Kawaii Leonard was the 2nd best player in the world after the 2014 season. Kemp was maybe (and imo 3rd or 4th) the 2nd best player in the Bulls series. I remember watching Malone destroy Kemp and the Sonics many times. In the series the Sonics won, Malone averaged 27, 11.6, and 5 compared to Kemp's 20, 10, and 1.3.RaceBannon said:
From his couch watching the Finals?RoadDawg55 said:
Shaq says hi.RaceBannon said:
Of course. Had I wrote Kemp was at a Hall of Fame level in 1996 we could have avoided all this. He was at the top of his game and the second best player in the world at the end of the Finals.PurpleThrobber said:
No problem with that other than you could slide Charles to the 3 spot comfortably too.TierbsHsotBoobs said:
Charles Barkley >>> Karl MalonePurpleThrobber said:Kemp had about 3 great years.
The best power forward of the 90's was Malone and it's beyond FS to suggest otherwise.
Abundance.
But both are better than Kemp for Christ's sake.
But you don't get in for throwing it all away by the next season
Discount stats all you want, but Malone was better than Kemp. So was Shaq, so was Hakeem, so was David Robinson. Grant Hill was up there. Pippen too. Kemp was damn good, but nobody thought he was the 2nd best player in the league. He was the 2nd best player on his team. -
ESPN Classic is your source?
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I've been watching the NBA since the 92-93 season. I was obsessed with the Sonics.RaceBannon said:ESPN Classic is your source?
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Jordan played back when the NBA was relevant. LaBron is part of the reason why the NBA sucks.
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The '94-'95 Bulls were 47-35 and a five seed. Give Jordan credit for getting them to the second round. Off the top of my head, we're talking Pippen, Kukoc, then guys like Kerr, Bill Cartwright, and Luc Longley. Without Jordan, they're probably around .500 and an eight seed if they're lucky.
Lebron is never gonna touch Jordan. Sports radio douches just bring it up when things are slow (like this time of year). I will give Lebron credit for '07 though. Stick the 15th best SF on that team, and I doubt they win 35 games. -
I don't even know where to begin....ThomasFremont said:
Actually there are quite a few. That's the fucking point.RoadDawg55 said:
There isn't one objective measure to put LeBron above Jordan. Maybe LeBron will finish with more regular season MVP's if you want to stoop that low. But MJ had Pippen and Phil Jackson, LeBron had to play for Mike Brown, yadda, yadda. Facts are facts, boobie lips. If you want to argue that LeBron is better than Bird and Magic, I would agree.ThomasFremont said:
Disagree.RoadDawg55 said:
LBJ is not underrated. He's one of the best of all time. Trying to compare him to Jordan is FS though. It's not even close.Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance.
Jordan has 6-0.
LeBron has everything else. Against better competition.
If you think the 80s-90s NBA was better than the current version, go light yourself on fire.
This isn't even a debate. -
This. Ainge was a decent shooting crybaby Mormon. He was a good role player. Nothing more.greenblood said:
WTF'd for listing Ainge and Kemp as hall of famers. Kemp may have been if cocaine hadn't have won. Ainge? You do realize he spent most of his career as a pretty good backup PG, right?SevenEleven said:
Everybody had two hall of famers during that era.RoadDawg55 said:
The Jazz had two hall of famers and won 64 and 62 games the two years they made the finals.greenblood said:
I might be a homer to some degree, but the 1992 Blazers with Drexler, Porter, Kersey, and Robinson has been long considered one of the best NBA teams in history NOT to win a championship.RaceBannon said:I will argue that claiming the East has been so bad all 5 years is dooging at its finest. Winners win and Lebron owns the East.
Same folks claim the pac 12 doesn't suck even though oregon wins it rather easily
Jordan beat a shitty West every year other than Phoenix
Why not just let the results stand? Jordan doesn't get blamed for 95 because he was playing baseball.
Pippen claiming he was a good as Lebron is what deserves shit
Hakeem and Clyde (later charles)
Barkley and kevin johnson
Drexler Ainge
Payton Kemp
NBA hall of fame doesnt mean shit
There's a reason stockton and malone never won shit. They were longevity stat-compilers, but not really all that outstanding. On top of that, they were just about ready to collect their social security checks when Jordan faced hem in the finals. -
They won 55 games in the full season without Jordan.Fire_Marshall_Bill said:The '94-'95 Bulls were 47-35 and a five seed. Give Jordan credit for getting them to the second round. Off the top of my head, we're talking Pippen, Kukoc, then guys like Kerr, Bill Cartwright, and Luc Longley. Without Jordan, they're probably around .500 and an eight seed if they're lucky.
Lebron is never gonna touch Jordan. Sports radio douches just bring it up when things are slow (like this time of year). I will give Lebron credit for '07 though. Stick the 15th best SF on that team, and I doubt they win 35 games. -
With another All Star in Horace Grant. They replaced him with Luc Longley.allpurpleallgold said:
They won 55 games in the full season without Jordan.Fire_Marshall_Bill said:The '94-'95 Bulls were 47-35 and a five seed. Give Jordan credit for getting them to the second round. Off the top of my head, we're talking Pippen, Kukoc, then guys like Kerr, Bill Cartwright, and Luc Longley. Without Jordan, they're probably around .500 and an eight seed if they're lucky.
Lebron is never gonna touch Jordan. Sports radio douches just bring it up when things are slow (like this time of year). I will give Lebron credit for '07 though. Stick the 15th best SF on that team, and I doubt they win 35 games. -
They had 3 All Stars that season. BJ Armstrong also.RoadDawg55 said:
With another All Star in Horace Grant. They replaced him with Luc Longley.allpurpleallgold said:
They won 55 games in the full season without Jordan.Fire_Marshall_Bill said:The '94-'95 Bulls were 47-35 and a five seed. Give Jordan credit for getting them to the second round. Off the top of my head, we're talking Pippen, Kukoc, then guys like Kerr, Bill Cartwright, and Luc Longley. Without Jordan, they're probably around .500 and an eight seed if they're lucky.
Lebron is never gonna touch Jordan. Sports radio douches just bring it up when things are slow (like this time of year). I will give Lebron credit for '07 though. Stick the 15th best SF on that team, and I doubt they win 35 games. -
So you have nothing to contribute?Fire_Marshall_Bill said:
I don't even know where to begin....ThomasFremont said:
Actually there are quite a few. That's the fucking point.RoadDawg55 said:
There isn't one objective measure to put LeBron above Jordan. Maybe LeBron will finish with more regular season MVP's if you want to stoop that low. But MJ had Pippen and Phil Jackson, LeBron had to play for Mike Brown, yadda, yadda. Facts are facts, boobie lips. If you want to argue that LeBron is better than Bird and Magic, I would agree.ThomasFremont said:
Disagree.RoadDawg55 said:
LBJ is not underrated. He's one of the best of all time. Trying to compare him to Jordan is FS though. It's not even close.Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance.
Jordan has 6-0.
LeBron has everything else. Against better competition.
If you think the 80s-90s NBA was better than the current version, go light yourself on fire.
This isn't even a debate.
EVERYONE is shocked. -
In 95, the Bulls were 34-31 when Jordan returned on March 19, 1995. They went 13-4 once Jordan returned. So despite winning 55 the year before, this was a team that was significantly worse.
No matter how great a player is, he needs a team around him to win a title. The '95 Bulls weren't going to play at their peak level in so little time and they were one player short. They wouldn't have won their first three titles without Horace Grant. They wouldn't have won the second three without Dennis Rodman.
To criticize Jordan's 94-95 season is some serious pressing. Same with trying to say LeBron is better. -
Jordan lost to the Pistons twice and the Celtics in the playoffs too.Doogles said:I'm hungover as shit at the cliffhouse chugging bloody Mary's when it occurs to me, why does MJ get a pass for losing to the magic in 95?
The legend goes he won 3, retired, came back and won 3 more thus making him invincible in his prime. Reality is he came back for the final 17 games of the 95 season, averaged 30 in the eastern conference finals but lost to baby Shaq and penny.
LeBron gets shit for his finals record vs. MJ 6-0, but MJ failed to get there in his prime.
Same thing for Montana 4-0> Brady 4-2 fs.
It's the Finals record not the conference finals record. -
Ilk > MinionsRaceBannon said:
If you check the facts I'm not the one who is butthurt. Your ilk gets butthurt at any mention of himRoadDawg55 said:
Right. What are you even arguing? LeBron is as good as Jordan? The East hasn't been a dreckfest? I've said LeBron is great many times. It's undeniable, but you get butthurt over any comment that doesn't gush over him.RaceBannon said:
That's not a counter argument, that's an admission of defeatRoadDawg55 said:
Being as big of fan boy of a player is kind of weird for a 60 year old man. Do you have a poster of LeBron in your bedroom too?RaceBannon said:I will argue that claiming the East has been so bad all 5 years is dooging at its finest. Winners win and Lebron owns the East.
Same folks claim the pac 12 doesn't suck even though oregon wins it rather easily
Jordan beat a shitty West every year other than Phoenix
Why not just let the results stand? Jordan doesn't get blamed for 95 because he was playing baseball.
Pippen claiming he was a good as Lebron is what deserves shit -
Disagreesalemcoog said:
Ilk > MinionsRaceBannon said:
If you check the facts I'm not the one who is butthurt. Your ilk gets butthurt at any mention of himRoadDawg55 said:
Right. What are you even arguing? LeBron is as good as Jordan? The East hasn't been a dreckfest? I've said LeBron is great many times. It's undeniable, but you get butthurt over any comment that doesn't gush over him.RaceBannon said:
That's not a counter argument, that's an admission of defeatRoadDawg55 said:
Being as big of fan boy of a player is kind of weird for a 60 year old man. Do you have a poster of LeBron in your bedroom too?RaceBannon said:I will argue that claiming the East has been so bad all 5 years is dooging at its finest. Winners win and Lebron owns the East.
Same folks claim the pac 12 doesn't suck even though oregon wins it rather easily
Jordan beat a shitty West every year other than Phoenix
Why not just let the results stand? Jordan doesn't get blamed for 95 because he was playing baseball.
Pippen claiming he was a good as Lebron is what deserves shit -
I got more than a Wei$er large on that action.RaceBannon said:Kareem won one with the Bucks and lost one. Then won 5 with the Lakers and lost 3(?). 6-4 in the finals. Russell was 10-1 (GO HAWKS!!!!. Russell had to beat Wilt every year and then most of the time West and Baylor.
Magic was 5-4.
6-0 probably won't be beat except that it already is. Going forward I don't see it happening.
As I have often said, losing to Dallas is the dark stain on the legacy of Lebron. 3-3 with two of the losses at Cleveland on horrible teams and a loss to the Spurs looks a lot better.
Lebron probably has 3 years max left before he fades away in the early rounds. His max over under is
5
