Yo ima let you finish, but Pippen was one of the best defenders OF ALL TIME. I will concede Olajuwon being better, though. Pippen was still a first team all-NBA and first team all-defense after Jordan retired the first time.
So this board is really going to do this huh? Act like Skip Bayless and blame this on Lebron.
He played better this series than he did last year against the Spurs. He shot incredible. The Heat aren't this dream team I've been saying that all year about this supporting cast. Was mocked for saying Wade is washed up.
Parker was 0-10 shooting and the Spurs best player IMO. They were up 20 you think OKC, Miami, Clippers or any championship contender in the last 20 years could have their best player have a game like that and still kick ass? Fuck no!
Pop is the G.O.A.T for coaches IMO.
It's not LeBron's fault Miami lost.
This series did confirm beyond the shadow of a doubt that LeBron is inferior to Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan though.
So this board is really going to do this huh? Act like Skip Bayless and blame this on Lebron.
He played better this series than he did last year against the Spurs. He shot incredible. The Heat aren't this dream team I've been saying that all year about this supporting cast. Was mocked for saying Wade is washed up.
Parker was 0-10 shooting and the Spurs best player IMO. They were up 20 you think OKC, Miami, Clippers or any championship contender in the last 20 years could have their best player have a game like that and still kick ass? Fuck no!
Pop is the G.O.A.T for coaches IMO.
It's not LeBron's fault Miami lost.
This series did confirm beyond the shadow of a doubt that LeBron is inferior to Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan though.
Flagged for saying Kobe > LeBron. Shaq says hi.
Kobe is 2-1 in Finals without Shaq. Last I checked, 2-1 is better than 2-3.
So this board is really going to do this huh? Act like Skip Bayless and blame this on Lebron.
He played better this series than he did last year against the Spurs. He shot incredible. The Heat aren't this dream team I've been saying that all year about this supporting cast. Was mocked for saying Wade is washed up.
Parker was 0-10 shooting and the Spurs best player IMO. They were up 20 you think OKC, Miami, Clippers or any championship contender in the last 20 years could have their best player have a game like that and still kick ass? Fuck no!
Pop is the G.O.A.T for coaches IMO.
It's not LeBron's fault Miami lost.
This series did confirm beyond the shadow of a doubt that LeBron is inferior to Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan though.
Flagged for saying Kobe > LeBron. Shaq says hi.
Kobe is 2-1 in Finals without Shaq. Last I checked, 2-1 is better than 2-3.
Hey man.... I just had to press some more. This is why I shouldn't try to talk basketball.
Thread jacking here, but the Spurs are so fucking lucky to have Duncan though. A big guy (basically a center) that averages 15 and 10 and is a top 5 defender is a max player. His market value is probably 20 million and he makes 10. Chris Bosh is making almost double. Wade almost makes more than Parker and Ginobili combined. In this era, it is crazy what they do and how everyone buys in.
Thread jacking here, but the Spurs are so fucking lucky to have Duncan though. A big guy (basically a center) that averages 15 and 10 and is a top 5 defender is a max player. His market value is probably 20 million and he makes 10. Chris Bosh is making almost double. Wade almost makes more than Parker and Ginobili combined. In this era, it is crazy what they do and how everyone buys in.
That's why Duncan is the second best player I've ever seen.
Also worth nothing: LeBron played until the final minute in his last game as a Cleveland Cavalier. He quit with six minutes left tonight.
I'm not going to pile on LeBron. I think he is kind of soft and a product of the AAU era, but the Spurs were just flat out the better team. I have a different recollection of his time in Cleveland though. He quit in that series against the Celtics.
So many things in this thread to touch on that a TL, DR post is coming ...
First, as one of the biggest LBJ critics out there, anybody pinning this series loss on him is crazy. The Heat were flat out beat by a better team.
Second, anybody saying that the difference in this series was simply that the Heat didn't get anything out Chalmers/Cole is completely missing the mark. Those are role players for them and expecting them to make a huge difference based on how Miami is built to operate is just unrealistic. If you really want to touch on role players and benches, what you'll notice is that the Spurs empower everybody on their roster to make plays, fill a role, and be successful while Miami mainly has some guys playing specialized roles and out there to either give rest or wait for LBJ to make them productive.
Third, I really hope people around the country, and in particular AAU coaches, paid attention to this series and this Spurs club. Basketball is at its best, in its purest form, and most entertaining when you move the basketball, trust in one another, play for one another, and the only stat you care about during the game is having more points than your opponent. I can watch this Spurs team play every night and be entertained.
Fourth, for those giving mad credit to Popovich are spot on. The first title for the Spurs was built on defense with Timmy and Robinson. The next 3 titles were driven by feeding the ball to Duncan on the inside, pick and rolls with Parker/Manu, and playing defense. As they've aged, they've reinvented themselves by moving the basketball, having their stars take a secondary role, and win through their offensive efficiency. On top of all of that is that you know you are an all-time great coach when you have the ability to offer up a vision and have every single person on your team buy in.
Fifth, can't say enough about Tim Duncan. In some ways, he's entering the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar stage of his career - but in some ways, even more effective than Kareem at that stage. Timmy's ability to continue to play at such a high level driven by fundamentals, his ability to be unselfish and the influence he has on those around him to be unselfish, drives everything that they do. Unlike most stars that demand that they still be treated like stars when they aren't, you have Timmy (and Manu/Parker) that is willing to sacrifice his own personal glory for the betterment of his team. A great example that most stars could learn from.
Finally, we've talked a lot recently about the greatness of LeBron and his ranks at the top of the GOAT debate. Going into the Finals, there was talk about LBJ versus Duncan in that debate. Fair or unfair, this series isn't going to help LBJ in that debate. While some have pointed out LBJ's 2-3 Finals record, I'll point out that LBJ has been helped out by being in the East during that period. In his first Finals in 2007, Cleveland was the #2 seed in the East with a 50-32 record and beat an aging Detroit teams in the East Finals before getting destroyed by the Spurs. From 2008-2010, the Cavs ran into the Celtics 2x (a legit power in the East) and were beat by Orlando. James then left to go to Miami and has made 4 straight Finals. I'll give James credit for getting out of the East in 2011 with an asterisk as the injury to Rondo really turned the semi's series against Boston but will give credit for beating a 62 win Chicago team in the East Finals. In the lockout season of 2012, Miami's path to the Finals was aided by Rose's knee injury in the first round of the playoffs and having to survive a 7 game series against Boston (which makes you wonder how the series the year before plays out without the Rondo injury with Boston being a year older). In 2013, Miami was pushed to 7 by Indiana ... and the only other 50 win team in the East that year was New York. Then, as was discussed at length, the East was a dreckfest this year with only Indiana being a 50 win team.
The point being that while I'll give LBJ a lot of respect for what he's done in getting to 5 Finals, he's definitely benefited by playing in the weaker of the two conferences throughout his career and that brings his 2-3 Finals record into question (and really, if it wasn't for a really unlikely comeback in Game 6 of last year's Finals, a 1-4 career record in the Finals). In some respects, his career is somewhat similar in this standpoint to the run Magic had in the 80s in the West (as the power was in the East) that led him to 9 Finals with a 5-4 record in them.
An interesting thing I thought about here tonight is that this was the 68th NBA season this year and over half of the titles in the history of the league were won by 6 main players (if you include Kareem/Magic as essentially one player):
Russell = 11 Jordan = 6 Kareem/Magic = 6/5 (Kareem won a title in Milwaukee in 1971) Duncan = 5 Kobe = 5 Bird = 3
Total = 35/36 of 68 NBA titles
When you want to start the list of the greatest players in the history of the game, I think your list basically starts and ends with the names above at this point with the next person on the list that needs to be considered is Wilt. Even if we get to the point next year where LBJ runs through a dreckfested East (particularly if he adds Carmelo) and gets a NBA title, I still think you need to seriously consider putting Bird ahead of him on that list due to Bird's 3 titles (against far deeper competition), 5 trips to the Finals, and 8 trips to the East Finals.
When Jordan retired Pippen was probably the 3rd best player in the game behind Olajuwon and Ewing. Pippen often gets downplayed by the Jordan dick riders I noticed.
I also don't think if you switch Jordan in his prime they win this series. Lebron had his best Finals offensively so what more could have MJ done? I feel like this thread needs to re-watch this video
You guys are pulling a Bayless with this shit of "Jordan would have willed his team, he would have wanted it more".
This Spurs team is better than any team Jordan has ever defeated in his career. That's a fact. They had an 8.0 SRS rating for this year which is pretty fucking good.
Jordan you all forget before Pippen got good couldn't get past great teams on his own and was 1-9 in the first round before Pippen was drafted.
Also I think Jordan had a better supporting cast than this current Heat team. Pippen in any of those 6 titles was better than this years Wade. Ron Harper although on the downside was better than Chalmers/Cole. Grant/Rodman vs Bosh is whatever you prefer. Bosh better offensively but those two were better defenders/rebounders. Cartwright/Longley sadly are better than any big man Miami has currently.
Bench? Kukoc in 1996-98 is better than 2014 Ray Allen. Steve Kerr this current Heat team doesn't even have a Steve Kerr(I guess Cole?).
You guys are reminding me of Doogman with this shit. It's classic First Take narrative let's be lazy and blame the super star and act like Magic, Bird, MJ and Kobe(In my opinion doesn't belong with those three yet his fans constantly insist that he does) never ever had a bad moment. Magic never got swept in the finals in 1983 and 1989, never lost in the playoffs in 5 games in 1985, 1990 or 1991. Bird never repeated as a champion but that is ignored same with his first title someone else won Finals MVP.
I don't think he's definitively better than wade was in his prime
Is Wade in his prime now? Talking about Jordan's cast being better than this current Heat squad.
Also Wade won a title in 2006 then was headed towards Tracy Mcgrady territory.
2007- swept 1st round 2008- 15-67 record 2009- first round exit 2010- first round exit
If Lebron doesn't take his talents to Miami I think we are all viewing Wade's career a lot differently.
By no means am I dismissing Wade but I think to think he's better than Pippen career wise I don't know about that. I think in their prime for one game I probably take Wade but I'd take Pippen's career over Wade's.
So this board is really going to do this huh? Act like Skip Bayless and blame this on Lebron.
He played better this series than he did last year against the Spurs. He shot incredible. The Heat aren't this dream team I've been saying that all year about this supporting cast. Was mocked for saying Wade is washed up.
Parker was 0-10 shooting and the Spurs best player IMO. They were up 20 you think OKC, Miami, Clippers or any championship contender in the last 20 years could have their best player have a game like that and still kick ass? Fuck no!
Pop is the G.O.A.T for coaches IMO.
It's not LeBron's fault Miami lost.
This series did confirm beyond the shadow of a doubt that LeBron is inferior to Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan though.
Flagged for saying Kobe > LeBron. Shaq says hi.
Kobe is 2-1 in Finals without Shaq. Last I checked, 2-1 is better than 2-3.
He's had his fair share of blow out losses in the playoffs too where his team was dominated.
Also in his prime couldn't get out of the first round 2005-07.
When Jordan retired Pippen was probably the 3rd best player in the game behind Olajuwon and Ewing. Pippen often gets downplayed by the Jordan dick riders I noticed.
I also don't think if you switch Jordan in his prime they win this series. Lebron had his best Finals offensively so what more could have MJ done? I feel like this thread needs to re-watch this video
You guys are pulling a Bayless with this shit of "Jordan would have willed his team, he would have wanted it more".
This Spurs team is better than any team Jordan has ever defeated in his career. That's a fact. They had an 8.0 SRS rating for this year which is pretty fucking good.
Jordan you all forget before Pippen got good couldn't get past great teams on his own and was 1-9 in the first round before Pippen was drafted.
Also I think Jordan had a better supporting cast than this current Heat team. Pippen in any of those 6 titles was better than this years Wade. Ron Harper although on the downside was better than Chalmers/Cole. Grant/Rodman vs Bosh is whatever you prefer. Bosh better offensively but those two were better defenders/rebounders. Cartwright/Longley sadly are better than any big man Miami has currently.
Bench? Kukoc in 1996-98 is better than 2014 Ray Allen. Steve Kerr this current Heat team doesn't even have a Steve Kerr(I guess Cole?).
You guys are reminding me of Doogman with this shit. It's classic First Take narrative let's be lazy and blame the super star and act like Magic, Bird, MJ and Kobe(In my opinion doesn't belong with those three yet his fans constantly insist that he does) never ever had a bad moment. Magic never got swept in the finals in 1983 and 1989, never lost in the playoffs in 5 games in 1985, 1990 or 1991. Bird never repeated as a champion but that is ignored same with his first title someone else won Finals MVP.
The Jazz were a 7.97 SRS team in 97 and got knocked out in six games. You're putting a hell of a lot of weight in 0.03 points of SRS. 4-2 against 7.97 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1-4 against 8.00.
You're right there's too much criticism being heaped at Lebron, but if you insist on comparing him to Jordan he's going to continue to look like shit. Jordan >>>>>>>>>>> Lebron.
I don't think he's definitively better than wade was in his prime
Is Wade in his prime now? Talking about Jordan's cast being better than this current Heat squad.
Also Wade won a title in 2006 then was headed towards Tracy Mcgrady territory.
2007- swept 1st round 2008- 15-67 record 2009- first round exit 2010- first round exit
If Lebron doesn't take his talents to Miami I think we are all viewing Wade's career a lot differently.
By no means am I dismissing Wade but I think to think he's better than Pippen career wise I don't know about that. I think in their prime for one game I probably take Wade but I'd take Pippen's career over Wade's.
Comments
Can you imagine this Heat team if Beasley, Chalmers, and Oden had achieved their potential?
HTH
First, as one of the biggest LBJ critics out there, anybody pinning this series loss on him is crazy. The Heat were flat out beat by a better team.
Second, anybody saying that the difference in this series was simply that the Heat didn't get anything out Chalmers/Cole is completely missing the mark. Those are role players for them and expecting them to make a huge difference based on how Miami is built to operate is just unrealistic. If you really want to touch on role players and benches, what you'll notice is that the Spurs empower everybody on their roster to make plays, fill a role, and be successful while Miami mainly has some guys playing specialized roles and out there to either give rest or wait for LBJ to make them productive.
Third, I really hope people around the country, and in particular AAU coaches, paid attention to this series and this Spurs club. Basketball is at its best, in its purest form, and most entertaining when you move the basketball, trust in one another, play for one another, and the only stat you care about during the game is having more points than your opponent. I can watch this Spurs team play every night and be entertained.
Fourth, for those giving mad credit to Popovich are spot on. The first title for the Spurs was built on defense with Timmy and Robinson. The next 3 titles were driven by feeding the ball to Duncan on the inside, pick and rolls with Parker/Manu, and playing defense. As they've aged, they've reinvented themselves by moving the basketball, having their stars take a secondary role, and win through their offensive efficiency. On top of all of that is that you know you are an all-time great coach when you have the ability to offer up a vision and have every single person on your team buy in.
Fifth, can't say enough about Tim Duncan. In some ways, he's entering the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar stage of his career - but in some ways, even more effective than Kareem at that stage. Timmy's ability to continue to play at such a high level driven by fundamentals, his ability to be unselfish and the influence he has on those around him to be unselfish, drives everything that they do. Unlike most stars that demand that they still be treated like stars when they aren't, you have Timmy (and Manu/Parker) that is willing to sacrifice his own personal glory for the betterment of his team. A great example that most stars could learn from.
Finally, we've talked a lot recently about the greatness of LeBron and his ranks at the top of the GOAT debate. Going into the Finals, there was talk about LBJ versus Duncan in that debate. Fair or unfair, this series isn't going to help LBJ in that debate. While some have pointed out LBJ's 2-3 Finals record, I'll point out that LBJ has been helped out by being in the East during that period. In his first Finals in 2007, Cleveland was the #2 seed in the East with a 50-32 record and beat an aging Detroit teams in the East Finals before getting destroyed by the Spurs. From 2008-2010, the Cavs ran into the Celtics 2x (a legit power in the East) and were beat by Orlando. James then left to go to Miami and has made 4 straight Finals. I'll give James credit for getting out of the East in 2011 with an asterisk as the injury to Rondo really turned the semi's series against Boston but will give credit for beating a 62 win Chicago team in the East Finals. In the lockout season of 2012, Miami's path to the Finals was aided by Rose's knee injury in the first round of the playoffs and having to survive a 7 game series against Boston (which makes you wonder how the series the year before plays out without the Rondo injury with Boston being a year older). In 2013, Miami was pushed to 7 by Indiana ... and the only other 50 win team in the East that year was New York. Then, as was discussed at length, the East was a dreckfest this year with only Indiana being a 50 win team.
The point being that while I'll give LBJ a lot of respect for what he's done in getting to 5 Finals, he's definitely benefited by playing in the weaker of the two conferences throughout his career and that brings his 2-3 Finals record into question (and really, if it wasn't for a really unlikely comeback in Game 6 of last year's Finals, a 1-4 career record in the Finals). In some respects, his career is somewhat similar in this standpoint to the run Magic had in the 80s in the West (as the power was in the East) that led him to 9 Finals with a 5-4 record in them.
An interesting thing I thought about here tonight is that this was the 68th NBA season this year and over half of the titles in the history of the league were won by 6 main players (if you include Kareem/Magic as essentially one player):
Russell = 11
Jordan = 6
Kareem/Magic = 6/5 (Kareem won a title in Milwaukee in 1971)
Duncan = 5
Kobe = 5
Bird = 3
Total = 35/36 of 68 NBA titles
When you want to start the list of the greatest players in the history of the game, I think your list basically starts and ends with the names above at this point with the next person on the list that needs to be considered is Wilt. Even if we get to the point next year where LBJ runs through a dreckfested East (particularly if he adds Carmelo) and gets a NBA title, I still think you need to seriously consider putting Bird ahead of him on that list due to Bird's 3 titles (against far deeper competition), 5 trips to the Finals, and 8 trips to the East Finals.
I also don't think if you switch Jordan in his prime they win this series. Lebron had his best Finals offensively so what more could have MJ done? I feel like this thread needs to re-watch this video
You guys are pulling a Bayless with this shit of "Jordan would have willed his team, he would have wanted it more".
This Spurs team is better than any team Jordan has ever defeated in his career. That's a fact. They had an 8.0 SRS rating for this year which is pretty fucking good.
Jordan you all forget before Pippen got good couldn't get past great teams on his own and was 1-9 in the first round before Pippen was drafted.
Also I think Jordan had a better supporting cast than this current Heat team. Pippen in any of those 6 titles was better than this years Wade. Ron Harper although on the downside was better than Chalmers/Cole. Grant/Rodman vs Bosh is whatever you prefer. Bosh better offensively but those two were better defenders/rebounders. Cartwright/Longley sadly are better than any big man Miami has currently.
Bench? Kukoc in 1996-98 is better than 2014 Ray Allen. Steve Kerr this current Heat team doesn't even have a Steve Kerr(I guess Cole?).
You guys are reminding me of Doogman with this shit. It's classic First Take narrative let's be lazy and blame the super star and act like Magic, Bird, MJ and Kobe(In my opinion doesn't belong with those three yet his fans constantly insist that he does) never ever had a bad moment. Magic never got swept in the finals in 1983 and 1989, never lost in the playoffs in 5 games in 1985, 1990 or 1991. Bird never repeated as a champion but that is ignored same with his first title someone else won Finals MVP.
Also Wade won a title in 2006 then was headed towards Tracy Mcgrady territory.
2007- swept 1st round
2008- 15-67 record
2009- first round exit
2010- first round exit
If Lebron doesn't take his talents to Miami I think we are all viewing Wade's career a lot differently.
By no means am I dismissing Wade but I think to think he's better than Pippen career wise I don't know about that. I think in their prime for one game I probably take Wade but I'd take Pippen's career over Wade's.
Also in his prime couldn't get out of the first round 2005-07.
Lebron has never lost in the first round btw.
You're right there's too much criticism being heaped at Lebron, but if you insist on comparing him to Jordan he's going to continue to look like shit. Jordan >>>>>>>>>>> Lebron.