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Kim Jong-un has committed to denuclearisation

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Comments

  • creepycougcreepycoug Posts: 7,235
    5000 Comments 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary 500 Awesomes

    I’m not sure how you can watch any 30 second clip of our senile oaf president speaking incoherently about the simplest things and conclude that “yeah this guy gets international diplomacy”

    There's a piece in the article about that too. I don't take Reagan to task for not being the smartest guy in the room. The President, like any leader, is a manager. He managed well. No, I'm confident he didn't understand everything, but he understood enuff.
    GrundleStiltzkinSwayehaieMosster47
  • HoustonHuskyHoustonHusky Posts: 2,312
    Swaye's Wigwam Solar Eclipse Donator 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    .... and you still didn't get it. Not surprising that context and nuance are totally lost on you.

    What did Reagan give to Gorbachev, and what did he tell him to do with it?

    I've quoted from about every page of the article showing it says absolutely nothing of what you originally claimed (bashing the idea of Reagan's role in bringing down the Soviets).

    Keep backpedaling and ducking and weaving...I'm heading to bed.

    Fucking Cal grad morons...
    I never bashed Reagan's role. I said there was a lot more going on.

    If you can't answer my question, there's no chance that you understood the article.

    Thanks you for bashing Cal. It shows that you know your betters.
    The cry of mentally unstable women and moronic wannabe intellectuals around the world...'but its more complicated than that...YOU just don't understand'. I quoted the article extensively...you just keep backpedaling once you got caught either lying or highlighting your ignorance.

    And I know where you are going with this latest line of thought and I'll wipe the floor with you on it as well. Keep flailing.

    And sorry...I went to a school ranked well above Cal if that's how you want to compare yourself to me (not that it should matter). Keep hope alive.
    I'm still coughing. I vaguely remember reading this article years ago and it popped up on my Googly search.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/29/weekinreview/two-journeys-reagan-s-evolution-a-change-of-heart-as-well-as-tatics.html

    It doesn't make anyone here look stupid, but it does make the point that the entire matter was a little more complicated than the idea of Reagan's charismatic leadership and vilification of the USSR bringing it to its knees. That's the much more fun way to look at things, sure, but it's way too simplistic.

    This piece makes both points. The main take-away, other than several experts and WH staffers having somewhat competing views of the thing, is that Reagan himself had competing views of the thing ... that it wasn't that simple. One guy calls into question the idea that an uptick in US military prowess was a big reason for the collapse, arguing that nothing really had changed in terms of fundamental US military capability. Others say that the uptick in the US economy and other factors favorable to US interests gave the administration "renewed confidence" in the US position to "negotiate" with the USSR (not punch it in the mouth).

    Whatever the case, I firmly believe that the USSR was fated to its collapse, and I will always take categorical assertions that its demise was greatly hastened by Reagan's rhetoric with a grain of salt. We don't know , because there's only one version of history, and that's the one that played out.

    My only bit of inside baseball on this was from a former Russian law partner who came here to go to school and practiced here for a while - he's back there now. That guy could regale you with anecdotes of how fucked up life was in the Soviet Union all day long w/o ever repeating a story. So I take it as patently obvious that the USSR wasn't built for the long-haul and would have, at some point - who knows when - collapsed on itself. Reagan himself is said to have held the same view.

    And, in the final analysis, isn't that a good thing? Isn't it a better take that the system of communism, so hostile to ours, was inherently flawed? I'd prefer that version over Reagan heroics.
    It is an opinion and debatable (I somewhat don't agree, but I'll let BearsDontWiin attempt an articulation of that argument if he can...he's batting 0 for 8 now...before I say why), but at least you are accurately representing the opinion of the author and adding your opinions instead of snidely referencing the article and ignorantly claiming it says something it doesn't to say to "prove" someone else wrong.

    And claiming you were his lawn boy in the process so you really should know over everyone else.

    Fucking dumbass Cal grads.
    RaceBannoncreepycougTierbsHsotBoobs
  • HoustonHuskyHoustonHusky Posts: 2,312
    Swaye's Wigwam Solar Eclipse Donator 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary
    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    .... and you still didn't get it. Not surprising that context and nuance are totally lost on you.

    What did Reagan give to Gorbachev, and what did he tell him to do with it?

    I've quoted from about every page of the article showing it says absolutely nothing of what you originally claimed (bashing the idea of Reagan's role in bringing down the Soviets).

    Keep backpedaling and ducking and weaving...I'm heading to bed.

    Fucking Cal grad morons...
    I never bashed Reagan's role. I said there was a lot more going on.

    If you can't answer my question, there's no chance that you understood the article.

    Thanks you for bashing Cal. It shows that you know your betters.
    The cry of mentally unstable women and moronic wannabe intellectuals around the world...'but its more complicated than that...YOU just don't understand'. I quoted the article extensively...you just keep backpedaling once you got caught either lying or highlighting your ignorance.

    And I know where you are going with this latest line of thought and I'll wipe the floor with you on it as well. Keep flailing.

    And sorry...I went to a school ranked well above Cal if that's how you want to compare yourself to me (not that it should matter). Keep hope alive.
    You sound insecure.

    You refuse to answer my question because you would then have to acknowledge the part of the article that undercuts whatever the fuck argument you think you're trying to make.
    Says the [email protected] who tried to pull "intellectual superiority" by bragging about going to a shittier school than I went to? You keep on with that...

    So you are batting at least 0-8 now in this thread with your incredibly shrinking argument...starting from:
    'this article says this' to:
    'yeah but that's just the intro and the main part of the article says this' to:
    'yeah well every page says what you said but I have this one question that somehow if you answer it the way I think you should it somehow negates the other 95% of the article' (it doesn't, but we'll get to that if you want to keep going)

    Feel free to specifically point out where I got any of my quotes or summaries from basically every page of that article wrong, or bring something new to the table...I don't care.

    It is always amusing to watch a pseudointellectual flail around when called out on their ignorance and try to rationalize themselves and others to keep their own view of themselves intact.

    TierbsHsotBoobs
  • HardlyClothedHardlyClothed Posts: 258
    250 Answers 100 Awesomes 100 Up Votes 100 Comments

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    .... and you still didn't get it. Not surprising that context and nuance are totally lost on you.

    What did Reagan give to Gorbachev, and what did he tell him to do with it?

    I've quoted from about every page of the article showing it says absolutely nothing of what you originally claimed (bashing the idea of Reagan's role in bringing down the Soviets).

    Keep backpedaling and ducking and weaving...I'm heading to bed.

    Fucking Cal grad morons...
    I never bashed Reagan's role. I said there was a lot more going on.

    If you can't answer my question, there's no chance that you understood the article.

    Thanks you for bashing Cal. It shows that you know your betters.
    The cry of mentally unstable women and moronic wannabe intellectuals around the world...'but its more complicated than that...YOU just don't understand'. I quoted the article extensively...you just keep backpedaling once you got caught either lying or highlighting your ignorance.

    And I know where you are going with this latest line of thought and I'll wipe the floor with you on it as well. Keep flailing.

    And sorry...I went to a school ranked well above Cal if that's how you want to compare yourself to me (not that it should matter). Keep hope alive.
    You sound insecure.

    You refuse to answer my question because you would then have to acknowledge the part of the article that undercuts whatever the fuck argument you think you're trying to make.
    Says the [email protected] who tried to pull "intellectual superiority" by bragging about going to a shittier school than I went to? You keep on with that...

    So you are batting at least 0-8 now in this thread with your incredibly shrinking argument...starting from:
    'this article says this' to:
    'yeah but that's just the intro and the main part of the article says this' to:
    'yeah well every page says what you said but I have this one question that somehow if you answer it the way I think you should it somehow negates the other 95% of the article' (it doesn't, but we'll get to that if you want to keep going)

    Feel free to specifically point out where I got any of my quotes or summaries from basically every page of that article wrong, or bring something new to the table...I don't care.

    It is always amusing to watch a pseudointellectual flail around when called out on their ignorance and try to rationalize themselves and others to keep their own view of themselves intact.

    In the off topic section of a college football forum you’re ranting about going to a better ranked school and pseudo intellectualism and you want us to take you seriously?
    RaceBannonHoustonHuskypawzCirrhosisDawgTierbsHsotBoobs
  • HardlyClothedHardlyClothed Posts: 258
    250 Answers 100 Awesomes 100 Up Votes 100 Comments

    I’m not sure how you can watch any 30 second clip of our senile oaf president speaking incoherently about the simplest things and conclude that “yeah this guy gets international diplomacy”

    There's a piece in the article about that too. I don't take Reagan to task for not being the smartest guy in the room. The President, like any leader, is a manager. He managed well. No, I'm confident he didn't understand everything, but he understood enuff.
    Reagan was just as mentally checked out as Trump but he had people around him who were better at hiding it. I’m old enough to remember Reagan’s defense on Iran-Contra being that he didn’t remember doing any of the things he did.
    RaceBannonHoustonHusky
  • GrundleStiltzkinGrundleStiltzkin Posts: 29,031
    Swaye's Wigwam 25000 Comments 250 Answers Fucktard of the Week Award

    I’m not sure how you can watch any 30 second clip of our senile oaf president speaking incoherently about the simplest things and conclude that “yeah this guy gets international diplomacy”

    There's a piece in the article about that too. I don't take Reagan to task for not being the smartest guy in the room. The President, like any leader, is a manager. He managed well. No, I'm confident he didn't understand everything, but he understood enuff.
    Reagan was just as mentally checked out as Trump but he had people around him who were better at hiding it. I’m old enough to remember Reagan’s defense on Iran-Contra being that he didn’t remember doing any of the things he did.
    Cynically evasive more likely.
    HardlyClothedTierbsHsotBoobs
  • HardlyClothedHardlyClothed Posts: 258
    250 Answers 100 Awesomes 100 Up Votes 100 Comments

    I’m not sure how you can watch any 30 second clip of our senile oaf president speaking incoherently about the simplest things and conclude that “yeah this guy gets international diplomacy”

    There's a piece in the article about that too. I don't take Reagan to task for not being the smartest guy in the room. The President, like any leader, is a manager. He managed well. No, I'm confident he didn't understand everything, but he understood enuff.
    Reagan was just as mentally checked out as Trump but he had people around him who were better at hiding it. I’m old enough to remember Reagan’s defense on Iran-Contra being that he didn’t remember doing any of the things he did.
    Cynically evasive more likely.
    That’s how I’m going to refer to my alzheimer’s when the time comes
    GrundleStiltzkinTierbsHsotBoobs
  • creepycougcreepycoug Posts: 7,235
    5000 Comments 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary 500 Awesomes

    They said the same thing about Reagan

    Now they say the Soviet Union was going to collapse anyway

    The Left is never wrong. Just aks them

    Reagan's own advisors questioned his sanity when he insisted the Soviet Union would collapse within a decade.
    Read the Times article I poasted. It's actually got some meat on the bones of this discussion. Any charge that Reagan, or anybody else for that matter, was not sane because they believed that the USSR was doomed to its own fate, is hyperbolic and stupid. I doubt they questioned his sanity over his conflicted views on this point. I would expect, or hope, that they would have questioned his sanity over his love for the evangelical right and for not marrying someone hotter than Nancy. Reagan, in his day, could have done better than that bag o' bones.
    TierbsHsotBoobs
  • creepycougcreepycoug Posts: 7,235
    5000 Comments 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary 500 Awesomes

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    .... and you still didn't get it. Not surprising that context and nuance are totally lost on you.

    What did Reagan give to Gorbachev, and what did he tell him to do with it?

    I've quoted from about every page of the article showing it says absolutely nothing of what you originally claimed (bashing the idea of Reagan's role in bringing down the Soviets).

    Keep backpedaling and ducking and weaving...I'm heading to bed.

    Fucking Cal grad morons...
    I never bashed Reagan's role. I said there was a lot more going on.

    If you can't answer my question, there's no chance that you understood the article.

    Thanks you for bashing Cal. It shows that you know your betters.
    The cry of mentally unstable women and moronic wannabe intellectuals around the world...'but its more complicated than that...YOU just don't understand'. I quoted the article extensively...you just keep backpedaling once you got caught either lying or highlighting your ignorance.

    And I know where you are going with this latest line of thought and I'll wipe the floor with you on it as well. Keep flailing.

    And sorry...I went to a school ranked well above Cal if that's how you want to compare yourself to me (not that it should matter). Keep hope alive.
    You sound insecure.

    You refuse to answer my question because you would then have to acknowledge the part of the article that undercuts whatever the fuck argument you think you're trying to make.
    Says the [email protected] who tried to pull "intellectual superiority" by bragging about going to a shittier school than I went to? You keep on with that...

    So you are batting at least 0-8 now in this thread with your incredibly shrinking argument...starting from:
    'this article says this' to:
    'yeah but that's just the intro and the main part of the article says this' to:
    'yeah well every page says what you said but I have this one question that somehow if you answer it the way I think you should it somehow negates the other 95% of the article' (it doesn't, but we'll get to that if you want to keep going)

    Feel free to specifically point out where I got any of my quotes or summaries from basically every page of that article wrong, or bring something new to the table...I don't care.

    It is always amusing to watch a pseudointellectual flail around when called out on their ignorance and try to rationalize themselves and others to keep their own view of themselves intact.

    I am by no means well read on this guy. But this one piece you quoted strikes me as amenable more than one view. "Soviet policy made a mess everywhere" also implies that the Soviet's had a lot of problems, mostly of their own doing and perhaps reflective of their fundamental systemic shortcomings. I'm not going to get on a soap box and declare a President I liked was irrelevant in the whole affair. But this idea that he rode in on a white horse and George Washington'd the whole thing with the USSR is a bit romantic and exaggerated for my tastes. That's why the Times article is, in my view, a good take. Life and foreign affairs are complex, and seldom lend themselves to singular explanations. But, sure, if things were a mess, then Reagan's pressure sure as shit wasn't helping them. I have no issue with that take. I only take issue with the romantics who like to say "Reagan busted up the Soviet Union," which is a simpleton's story line.

    "Soviet policy was particulary vulnerable because it had made a mess everywhere. This argument, if correct, implies that the unrelenting approach of the Reagan administration was probably more effective than a better balanced Western policy - beat up the Soviets here, conciliate them there-would have been."
    CirrhosisDawg
  • SwayeSwaye Posts: 24,479
    Swaye's Wigwam Solar Eclipse Donator 10000 Comments 250 Answers

    What exactly is this whole thread about again

    I zoned out at the tits

    Good place to start and stop.
    creepycoug
  • PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Posts: 10,800
    10000 Comments 250 Answers 500 Awesomes 500 Up Votes
    Swaye said:

    I’m not sure how you can watch any 30 second clip of our senile oaf president speaking incoherently about the simplest things and conclude that “yeah this guy gets international diplomacy”

    There's a piece in the article about that too. I don't take Reagan to task for not being the smartest guy in the room. The President, like any leader, is a manager. He managed well. No, I'm confident he didn't understand everything, but he understood enuff.
    This. The President should rarely if ever be the smartest guy in the room. There are people at State and the CIA/NSA who study a single country for 30+ years. You got guys like Mattis who have studied warfare for 40+ years. You aren't going to know more than them. Put smart people in critical positions. Rely on them. Seek strong counsel and heed it.
    The B students hire the A students for advice.

    In Mad Dog we trust.
    pawzcreepycougGrundleStiltzkinPitchfork51
  • oregonblitzkriegoregonblitzkrieg Posts: 10,528
    5000 Comments 250 Answers 500 Awesomes 500 Up Votes

    Kasich was a loser bitch. He was no different than Hillary or any other jackass representing the one party in power. The R or a D behind the name is just a guise. It's the same party. Trump didn't belong to it. It's why he won. It's why they hate him. It's why I'm voting him in for a second term.

    Steve Bannon is why Trump won. When he got there, he had no more use for an idealogue who attracts the wrong kind of attention. But everyone knows why Trump got elected.
    The Bannon obsession is not your finest hour here
    We all have our heroes. You have yours; I have mine. If I ever abandon my politics and want to turn into OBK - a national socialist with a protectionist economic platform and a slight hint of xenophobia - then, Bannon will be mine. You are free to choose as you wish.
    I own the protectionist economic platform and the slight hint of xenophobia. Sad you've entered desperation mode and are crying "national socialist" like you're ready to take your ball and go home. Go home then, pussy. You radical lefties are so far into your bubble that anything slightly right of center, or for that matter, slightly left of center, is the Third Reich to you. The philosophy and regime of your leaders Hillary, Sanders, Obama and Soros, failed. Cry about it like a bitch and run to the sidelines, or punt the ball and try again. 4th and 20.


    creepycougCirrhosisDawgTierbsHsotBoobshaieBennyBeaver
  • Pitchfork51Pitchfork51 Posts: 9,602
    5000 Comments 250 Answers 500 Up Votes 500 Awesomes
    I've still never understood this whole xenophobia thing.

    I'm not afraid of Mexican immigrants.

    I just don't like gross poor people.


    Not saying all Mexicans are gross.


    Just that most of the poor illegals are.


    Don't twist.
    TierbsHsotBoobs
  • creepycougcreepycoug Posts: 7,235
    5000 Comments 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary 500 Awesomes

    I've still never understood this whole xenophobia thing.

    I'm not afraid of Mexican immigrants.

    I just don't like gross poor people.


    Not saying all Mexicans are gross.


    Just that most of the poor illegals are.


    Don't twist.

    Grammar aside, yes, you don't.
  • creepycougcreepycoug Posts: 7,235
    5000 Comments 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary 500 Awesomes

    Kasich was a loser bitch. He was no different than Hillary or any other jackass representing the one party in power. The R or a D behind the name is just a guise. It's the same party. Trump didn't belong to it. It's why he won. It's why they hate him. It's why I'm voting him in for a second term.

    Steve Bannon is why Trump won. When he got there, he had no more use for an idealogue who attracts the wrong kind of attention. But everyone knows why Trump got elected.
    The Bannon obsession is not your finest hour here
    We all have our heroes. You have yours; I have mine. If I ever abandon my politics and want to turn into OBK - a national socialist with a protectionist economic platform and a slight hint of xenophobia - then, Bannon will be mine. You are free to choose as you wish.
    I own the protectionist economic platform and the slight hint of xenophobia. Sad you've entered desperation mode and are crying "national socialist" like you're ready to take your ball and go home. Go home then, pussy. You radical lefties are so far into your bubble that anything slightly right of center, or for that matter, slightly left of center, is the Third Reich to you. The philosophy and regime of your leaders Hillary, Sanders, Obama and Soros, failed. Cry about it like a bitch and run to the sidelines, or punt the ball and try again. 4th and 20.


    You talking to me? Canes can convert 3rd and 43 bitch. We are not afraid of down and distance.

    I still have the ball. Sorry if the NS thing stung. I apologize.
    oregonblitzkrieghaie
  • HoustonHuskyHoustonHusky Posts: 2,312
    Swaye's Wigwam Solar Eclipse Donator 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    .... and you still didn't get it. Not surprising that context and nuance are totally lost on you.

    What did Reagan give to Gorbachev, and what did he tell him to do with it?

    I've quoted from about every page of the article showing it says absolutely nothing of what you originally claimed (bashing the idea of Reagan's role in bringing down the Soviets).

    Keep backpedaling and ducking and weaving...I'm heading to bed.

    Fucking Cal grad morons...
    I never bashed Reagan's role. I said there was a lot more going on.

    If you can't answer my question, there's no chance that you understood the article.

    Thanks you for bashing Cal. It shows that you know your betters.
    The cry of mentally unstable women and moronic wannabe intellectuals around the world...'but its more complicated than that...YOU just don't understand'. I quoted the article extensively...you just keep backpedaling once you got caught either lying or highlighting your ignorance.

    And I know where you are going with this latest line of thought and I'll wipe the floor with you on it as well. Keep flailing.

    And sorry...I went to a school ranked well above Cal if that's how you want to compare yourself to me (not that it should matter). Keep hope alive.
    You sound insecure.

    You refuse to answer my question because you would then have to acknowledge the part of the article that undercuts whatever the fuck argument you think you're trying to make.
    Says the [email protected] who tried to pull "intellectual superiority" by bragging about going to a shittier school than I went to? You keep on with that...

    So you are batting at least 0-8 now in this thread with your incredibly shrinking argument...starting from:
    'this article says this' to:
    'yeah but that's just the intro and the main part of the article says this' to:
    'yeah well every page says what you said but I have this one question that somehow if you answer it the way I think you should it somehow negates the other 95% of the article' (it doesn't, but we'll get to that if you want to keep going)

    Feel free to specifically point out where I got any of my quotes or summaries from basically every page of that article wrong, or bring something new to the table...I don't care.

    It is always amusing to watch a pseudointellectual flail around when called out on their ignorance and try to rationalize themselves and others to keep their own view of themselves intact.

    In the off topic section of a college football forum you’re ranting about going to a better ranked school and pseudo intellectualism and you want us to take you seriously?
    Thanks for reading and caring enough to respond on said board!
    creepycoug
  • TierbsHsotBoobsTierbsHsotBoobs Posts: 39,435
    25000 Comments 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary 500 Agrees
    Swaye said:

    I’m not sure how you can watch any 30 second clip of our senile oaf president speaking incoherently about the simplest things and conclude that “yeah this guy gets international diplomacy”

    There's a piece in the article about that too. I don't take Reagan to task for not being the smartest guy in the room. The President, like any leader, is a manager. He managed well. No, I'm confident he didn't understand everything, but he understood enuff.
    This. The President should rarely if ever be the smartest guy in the room. There are people at State and the CIA/NSA who study a single country for 30+ years. You got guys like Mattis who have studied warfare for 40+ years. You aren't going to know more than them. Put smart people in critical positions. Rely on them. Seek strong counsel and heed it.
    Trump is doing a terrible job on the bold part.
  • HardlyClothedHardlyClothed Posts: 258
    250 Answers 100 Awesomes 100 Up Votes 100 Comments

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    .... and you still didn't get it. Not surprising that context and nuance are totally lost on you.

    What did Reagan give to Gorbachev, and what did he tell him to do with it?

    I've quoted from about every page of the article showing it says absolutely nothing of what you originally claimed (bashing the idea of Reagan's role in bringing down the Soviets).

    Keep backpedaling and ducking and weaving...I'm heading to bed.

    Fucking Cal grad morons...
    I never bashed Reagan's role. I said there was a lot more going on.

    If you can't answer my question, there's no chance that you understood the article.

    Thanks you for bashing Cal. It shows that you know your betters.
    The cry of mentally unstable women and moronic wannabe intellectuals around the world...'but its more complicated than that...YOU just don't understand'. I quoted the article extensively...you just keep backpedaling once you got caught either lying or highlighting your ignorance.

    And I know where you are going with this latest line of thought and I'll wipe the floor with you on it as well. Keep flailing.

    And sorry...I went to a school ranked well above Cal if that's how you want to compare yourself to me (not that it should matter). Keep hope alive.
    You sound insecure.

    You refuse to answer my question because you would then have to acknowledge the part of the article that undercuts whatever the fuck argument you think you're trying to make.
    Says the [email protected] who tried to pull "intellectual superiority" by bragging about going to a shittier school than I went to? You keep on with that...

    So you are batting at least 0-8 now in this thread with your incredibly shrinking argument...starting from:
    'this article says this' to:
    'yeah but that's just the intro and the main part of the article says this' to:
    'yeah well every page says what you said but I have this one question that somehow if you answer it the way I think you should it somehow negates the other 95% of the article' (it doesn't, but we'll get to that if you want to keep going)

    Feel free to specifically point out where I got any of my quotes or summaries from basically every page of that article wrong, or bring something new to the table...I don't care.

    It is always amusing to watch a pseudointellectual flail around when called out on their ignorance and try to rationalize themselves and others to keep their own view of themselves intact.

    In the off topic section of a college football forum you’re ranting about going to a better ranked school and pseudo intellectualism and you want us to take you seriously?
    Thanks for reading and caring enough to respond on said board!
    “I debased myself in a fit of anger and insecurity but the joke is on you for reading it!”
  • HoustonHuskyHoustonHusky Posts: 2,312
    Swaye's Wigwam Solar Eclipse Donator 250 Answers Fifth Anniversary
    edited September 12

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    They said the same thing about Reagan

    Now they say the Soviet Union was going to collapse anyway

    The Left is never wrong. Just aks them

    Before you try to fit a round analogy in a square hole, you might read Steve Sestanovich's "Did the West Undo The East" from a 1993 special edition of The National Interest.

    Or you can just keep throwing shit because you're a bitter ex-Dem. You're choice
    Fucking Cal grads...I'm not sure which one is worse. Morons like HondoFS who at least don't claim intellectual superiority or true idiots that do.

    You ought to go read it yourself...as some might say Sestanovich "concluded that Reagan’s policies were crucial factors in the disintegration of Soviet communism"

    Keep rewriting history...
    It's clear that you didn't read the piece, because even one of the architects of Reagan's second-term policy knew it was much more complicated than that.

    Since he was my boss for a year, you can bet that we discussed it in person.
    You mean the part in said article where he said such things as:

    "As for the detente of the 1970s, its claim to have begun digging totalitarianism's grave is weak" (i.e. the previous point of policies like sending pallets of cash to places like Iran and nuclear reactors to NK is HondoFS...)

    Getting to Reagan's policy, Sestanovich said:
    "Admittedly, the Soviet Union suffered no outright military defeat in the first half of the 1980s. Nevertheless, by the middle of the decade, the outlook on almost every front of the Soviet foreign policy was poor and clearly deteriorating. The list of failures needs very little elaboration: INF deployments in Europe and successive large increases in the US military budget; Afghanistan, Grenada, and the emergence of the "Reagan Doctrine," which put new pressure on Soviet clients in Africa, Asia, and Latin America; Moscow's exclusion from Middle East diplomacy, and the humiliation of Soviet-made weapons in the Lebanon war of 1982; the Solidarity challenge in Poland; robust Chinese economic growth against a background of continuing Sino-Soviet hostility. And all of this bad news before even mentioning the Strategic Defense Initiative, which threatened a new round of military competition and high-lighted Soviet technology inferiority.
    ...
    Mearly to recite this list of Soviet setbacks is to underscore the West's (aka Reagan's policies) role in discrediting the policy of Gorbachev's predecessors."


    or, as Sestanovich summarized:
    "Soviet policy was particulary vulnerable because it had made a mess everywhere. This argument, if correct, implies that the unrelenting approach of the Reagan administration was probably more effective than a better balanced Western policy - beat up the Soviets here, conciliate them there-would have been."

    He goes on to talk in detail about how Reagan's SDI program was particularly effective in screwing with your comrades, Reagan's calling for the wall to come down in 1987 causing all sorts of problems for the Soviets, etc. etc.

    And, especially focusing on apparently you and some of you comrades here, he summarized by saying "it should be said that many who understate it (Western influence...i.e. Reagan's policies) are also moved by partisanship...."

    Hey, I'm glad you worked for him. I'm sure that year his garden looked the best it has in, what, an entire year.

    And a special shout-out to CreepyCoug for couging in and buying BearsDontWiin's shite.

    In other news, things sharper than BearsDontWiin:



    Way to cherry pick from the first few pages that establish background but aren't the meat of the article. What did Reagan give to Gorbachev, and what did he tell him to do with it? I' m curious as to whether you read the whole fucking piece, because from your choice of quotes it sure as hell doesn't look like it.
    Its not a novel...its a fucking 9 page article. I quoted directly from pages 2, 3, and 9, and summarized chunks of pages 4 and 5. Considering pages 6 and 7 were on the 1970s (with themes like Carter and Company's coddling of Russia "made it easier for the Soviet elite to preserve the system as it was" and "According to Brezhnev, detente promoted the consolidation of socialism, and he was right"...as if that somehow agrees with anything you are inferring).

    Page 8 is more general themes with such damning indictments of Reagan's policies such as "The policy shifts of the 1980s - deep hostility followed by another detente - were equally hard on the Soviet System" and citations like "Paul Kennedy makes this point: "Russia has always enjoyed its greatest military advantage vis-a-vis the West when the pace of weapons technolgy has slowed down enough to allow a standardization of equipment and thus of fighting units and tactics...Whenever an upward spiral in weapons technology has placed an emphasis upon quality rather than quantity, however, the Russian advantage has diminished"

    Yeah...you keep riding this horse into the ground...

    Fucking moronic Cal grads...I'm starting to think Sestanovich's garden looked like shite that year you "worked for him" as well. You can't make this idiocy up...
    Somehow @BearsWiin thinks this isn't "reading" the article...
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