ST3 / Car Tabs / Sales Taxes / Bloated KC Metro
Comments
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But isn't this apples and oranges? Is it really surprising that a nation with 235 people per square mile can move them more efficiently than a nation with 84 people per square mile?AZDuck said:
Government built "freeways" - late 1950's techPurpleJ said:Either regulation made it so the only attractive investment in
railair travel and auto travel is through the government, ortheauto technology itself is obsolete and no private company will touch it absent massive subsidy.
Internal combustion engines - late 1890's tech
Airports and runways - built and maintained largely by governments
Roads and freeways - built and maintained largely by governments
Oil and gasoline - prices managed by a foreign cartel and US government stockpile, plus massive military intervention in the Middle East
All transportation modes require government subsidy. Which ones move the most people more efficiently in the most comfort with the least disruption and consumption of energy?
If only someone had studied this question...
I think rail works great with dense populations (and would presumably work great in Seattle if you didn't have to trust the Seattle government to execute it). I'm not sure it translates nationwide in the US though. -
Name two that don't. There's only one transportation system, worldwide, that doesn't require a subsidy. The Hong Kong Metro.PurpleJ said:"All transportation modes require government subsidy"
WRONG -
Seattle has the 11th most travelled rail system in the United States.
Statistically speaking, it doesn't move jack shit in terms of riders.
Time to let go of 1850's technology and accept the future. Think mobility. -
It's not in the developers/property owners best interest to move people quickly and inexpensively. It's in their interest to have a somewhat captive workforce who are therefore forced to pay ridiculous prices for rent and purchase of the real estate. Simple supply and demand curves and if the limited supply can be reduced, it drives the prices up.doogie said:Seattle has the 11th most travelled rail system in the United States.
Statistically speaking, it doesn't move jack shit in terms of riders.
Time to let go of 1850's technology and accept the future. Think mobility.
A high speed train to/from the suburbs would make urban real estate far less valuable.
Can you imagine if you could commute door to door from Cle Elum to downtown Seattle in 30 to 45 minutes?
Always follow the money trail. -
That's a reasonable poont.dnc said:
But isn't this apples and oranges? Is it really surprising that a nation with 235 people per square mile can move them more efficiently than a nation with 84 people per square mile?AZDuck said:
Government built "freeways" - late 1950's techPurpleJ said:Either regulation made it so the only attractive investment in
railair travel and auto travel is through the government, ortheauto technology itself is obsolete and no private company will touch it absent massive subsidy.
Internal combustion engines - late 1890's tech
Airports and runways - built and maintained largely by governments
Roads and freeways - built and maintained largely by governments
Oil and gasoline - prices managed by a foreign cartel and US government stockpile, plus massive military intervention in the Middle East
All transportation modes require government subsidy. Which ones move the most people more efficiently in the most comfort with the least disruption and consumption of energy?
If only someone had studied this question...
I think rail works great with dense populations (and would presumably work great in Seattle if you didn't have to trust the Seattle government to execute it). I'm not sure it translates nationwide in the US though.
But the US isn't even close and Germany isn't even the best model (Switzerland is).
I don't think that high speed rail is feasible coast-to-coast in the US, although the Chinese are building HSR lines that are longer than the 400-600 mile optimum range. Long distance Amtrak service should be abolished. That is 1920's dinosaur rail.
But people in the US are concentrated into urban regions. California, the P-NW I-5 corridor, the Midwest (centered on Chicago), the BOS-NYC-WAS corridor, Atlanta-JAX-Charlotte-Raleigh, HOU-DAL-AUS-SAN, DEN-COS-ALB, SLC valley, Florida.
High speed rail would work in those regions. And any metro area of decent size can increasingly support intra-city rail. Like the Doovil said above about PHX's line, rail drives development, so you can better shape your city, reduce sprawl, and create virtuous rather than vicious cycles (more walking, biking, public transit, etc.)
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High speed rail fare from Cle Elum to Seattle, heavily subsidized, would cost far more then what the little people this "solution" is sold to, would be willing to pay.
Rail as a "solution" toward moving people, is a circle jerk for emotional thinkers. -
Holy Fuck, AZ has pummeled J this week.AZDuck said:
Name two that don't. There's only one transportation system, worldwide, that doesn't require a subsidy. The Hong Kong Metro.PurpleJ said:"All transportation modes require government subsidy"
WRONG
It's painful to see baseless stupidity in the internet age.
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Like I said, 19th century "solutions" to 21st century issues.
Thanks for the links! -
Right. It's just emotional thinking moving millions of people in countries all over the world (outside of North America).doogie said:High speed rail fare from Cle Elum to Seattle, heavily subsidized, would cost far more then what the little people this "solution" is sold to, would be willing to pay.
Rail as a "solution" toward moving people, is a circle jerk for emotional thinkers.
America is somehow different. No matter if everyone else in the world has figured out a reasonable solution to a problem (transportation, health care coverage, what have you)
IT WON'T WORK HERE BECAUSE REASONS WE'RE DIFFERENT FUCK OFF
Every mother thinks her son is exceptional. If the son believes it too, he's in for a world of hurt. -
You cited Portland's light rail as an example that works.AZDuck said:
Right. It's just emotional thinking moving millions of people in countries all over the world (outside of North America).doogie said:High speed rail fare from Cle Elum to Seattle, heavily subsidized, would cost far more then what the little people this "solution" is sold to, would be willing to pay.
Rail as a "solution" toward moving people, is a circle jerk for emotional thinkers.
America is somehow different. No matter if everyone else in the world has figured out a reasonable solution to a problem (transportation, health care coverage, what have you)
IT WON'T WORK HERE BECAUSE REASONS WE'RE DIFFERENT FUCK OFF
Every mother thinks her son is exceptional. If the son believes it too, he's in for a world of hurt.
Take your L and move on. -
Your mom never thought her Son was special. I hope she loved you anyway.
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I stand by that. MAX and Streetcar have 140,000 boardings/day. 4th highest light rail ridership in North America, in the 33rd biggest metro area.TierbsHsotBoobs said:
You cited Portland's light rail as an example that works.AZDuck said:
Right. It's just emotional thinking moving millions of people in countries all over the world (outside of North America).doogie said:High speed rail fare from Cle Elum to Seattle, heavily subsidized, would cost far more then what the little people this "solution" is sold to, would be willing to pay.
Rail as a "solution" toward moving people, is a circle jerk for emotional thinkers.
America is somehow different. No matter if everyone else in the world has figured out a reasonable solution to a problem (transportation, health care coverage, what have you)
IT WON'T WORK HERE BECAUSE REASONS WE'RE DIFFERENT FUCK OFF
Every mother thinks her son is exceptional. If the son believes it too, he's in for a world of hurt.
Take your L and move on.
I didn't have to own a car in Portland 20 years ago, it's probably better now -
I kinda dig trails for intra-MSA transportation and can deal with begrudgingly cope with the operational subsidies. It's stuff like large-scale eminent domain, clusterfuck construction, and political chinfluence of design that screw these up from the start.
Aside from the population density point above, one thing oft overlooked when trying to applying other countries solutions to the US is cultural/national/racial homogeneity. Germany remain mostly German, Swiss in Switzerland, etc. It makes a difference.
TL;DR - the Turks need maor tim. -
Moving the goalposts again, I see.
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America is different. HTH.AZDuck said:
Right. It's just emotional thinking moving millions of people in countries all over the world (outside of North America).doogie said:High speed rail fare from Cle Elum to Seattle, heavily subsidized, would cost far more then what the little people this "solution" is sold to, would be willing to pay.
Rail as a "solution" toward moving people, is a circle jerk for emotional thinkers.
America is somehow different. No matter if everyone else in the world has figured out a reasonable solution to a problem (transportation, health care coverage, what have you)
IT WON'T WORK HERE BECAUSE REASONS WE'RE DIFFERENT FUCK OFF
Every mother thinks her son is exceptional. If the son believes it too, he's in for a world of hurt. -
It's ok when the temperature is between 40 and 80 degrees and it's not raining too heavily...and you have hours to kill going back and forth to work...and you live and work near the lines.AZDuck said:
I stand by that. MAX and Streetcar have 140,000 boardings/day. 4th highest light rail ridership in North America, in the 33rd biggest metro area.TierbsHsotBoobs said:
You cited Portland's light rail as an example that works.AZDuck said:
Right. It's just emotional thinking moving millions of people in countries all over the world (outside of North America).doogie said:High speed rail fare from Cle Elum to Seattle, heavily subsidized, would cost far more then what the little people this "solution" is sold to, would be willing to pay.
Rail as a "solution" toward moving people, is a circle jerk for emotional thinkers.
America is somehow different. No matter if everyone else in the world has figured out a reasonable solution to a problem (transportation, health care coverage, what have you)
IT WON'T WORK HERE BECAUSE REASONS WE'RE DIFFERENT FUCK OFF
Every mother thinks her son is exceptional. If the son believes it too, he's in for a world of hurt.
Take your L and move on.
I didn't have to own a car in Portland 20 years ago, it's probably better now -
America is pretty stupid in almost all dealing. EVERYTHING has to turn a profit, but it can't just turn a profit, it has to turn a profit for the right people.GrundleStiltzkin said:
America is different. HTH.AZDuck said:
Right. It's just emotional thinking moving millions of people in countries all over the world (outside of North America).doogie said:High speed rail fare from Cle Elum to Seattle, heavily subsidized, would cost far more then what the little people this "solution" is sold to, would be willing to pay.
Rail as a "solution" toward moving people, is a circle jerk for emotional thinkers.
America is somehow different. No matter if everyone else in the world has figured out a reasonable solution to a problem (transportation, health care coverage, what have you)
IT WON'T WORK HERE BECAUSE REASONS WE'RE DIFFERENT FUCK OFF
Every mother thinks her son is exceptional. If the son believes it too, he's in for a world of hurt.
Everyone will clap at a new battleship that floats around and does nothing, but something that would increase the general welfare of a populous is viewed as communist garbage. It's stupid and you can't fix that. -
You know that Switzerland is split among the three main Euro ethnicities (German, French, Italian) right? That and over a quarter of the population there isn't even Swiss, but has the Swiss version of a green card?GrundleStiltzkin said:I kinda dig trails for intra-MSA transportation and can deal with begrudgingly cope with the operational subsidies. It's stuff like large-scale eminent domain, clusterfuck construction, and political chinfluence of design that screw these up from the start.
Aside from the population density point above, one thing oft overlooked when trying to applying other countries solutions to the US is cultural/national/racial homogeneity. Germany remain mostly German, Swiss in Switzerland, etc. It makes a difference.
TL;DR - the Turks need maor tim.
I don't think that having different ethnic groups makes rail transportation not work. London's a helluva lot more diverse than Seattle or Portland. -
I am a progressive. I want 19th century technology.
California for all the bullshit about how stupid liberals run things, understands that they better keep building freeways because that's what we want.
Jerry is now asking Trump for money for his super train from Santa Clarita to Bakersfield.
We are not a dense urban area where a subway is awesome. We are the west. Take your trains and fuck off already. -
Higher degrees of homogeneity improves political consensus.AZDuck said:
You know that Switzerland is split among the three main Euro ethnicities (German, French, Italian) right? That and over a quarter of the population there isn't even Swiss, but has the Swiss version of a green card?GrundleStiltzkin said:I kinda dig trails for intra-MSA transportation and can deal with begrudgingly cope with the operational subsidies. It's stuff like large-scale eminent domain, clusterfuck construction, and political chinfluence of design that screw these up from the start.
Aside from the population density point above, one thing oft overlooked when trying to applying other countries solutions to the US is cultural/national/racial homogeneity. Germany remain mostly German, Swiss in Switzerland, etc. It makes a difference.
TL;DR - the Turks need maor tim.
I don't think that having different ethnic groups makes rail transportation not work. London's a helluva lot more diverse than Seattle or Portland. -
Reality. It's a bitch sometimesRaceBannon said:I am a progressive. I want 19th century technology.
California for all the bullshit about how stupid liberals run things, understands that they better keep building freeways because that's what we want.
Jerry is now asking Trump for money for his super train from Santa Clarita to Bakersfield.
We are not a dense urban area where a subway is awesome. We are the west. Take your trains and fuck off already.
https://la.curbed.com/2012/3/26/10385086/los-angeles-is-the-most-densely-populated-urban-area-in-the-us
LA is 2/3 as dense as London
Metro Portland is more densely populated than Metro Zurich -
LA is spread out. A fixed rail runs through South Central to get to LAX. Geepers
So Cal is not dense but train nuts are -
Lemme guess....AZDuck said:It's almost like rail transport has never been tried and been successful in other developed countries or something
Sweden has the best rail System ever developed, all the operators pay 70% in taxes, And they all love it!!!! -
I'm just glad that we pay you to make 30 minute poasts that miss the point on a shit website.AZDuck said:
Japan's Shinkansen, Birthplace of High Speed RailPurpleJ said:Add rail transport to things ruined by the government.
France's TGV, World's Fastest Train
Germany's High Speed ICE Network
Switzerland's Integrated Rail Network - One ticket for Rail, Trams, Buses Goes Everywhere
Zurich Tram and Bus Map - Metro Area 2.4 million
Tokyo Commuter Rail and Metro Map - Metro Area 35 million
London Metro Map
New Gotthard Tunnel Under the Alps
Spain's High Speed Rail Network
China's High Speed Rail Network
South Korea's High Speed Rail Network
Kuala Lumpur(!) High Speed Metro
Istanbul Tunnel Under the Bosphorus Connecting Europe and Asia
Portland's Rail Network (built since 1986)
And then there's Seattle and Tacoma
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Tac Town Lame
When government investment is creating high-speed rail subway, commuter rail and light rail links that bridge continents, tunnel under Alps, move millions of people a day faster, more comfortably, more efficiently and with less pollution than the US dependence on air travel
and cars (hello, let's sit for a while) ... AND
The Spanish, the Turks, the Malaysians and even fucking communist Portland are kicking your ass at it-
It might be time to reconsider your position.
The problem isn't getting around the state nor the Country, The problem is getting around town. And your big phallic bullet trains don't serve that need. Only London and half ass Portland demonstrate better alternatives than driving your car to get around town. -
get back to me when the Swedish economy collapses next year, fuckosalemcoog said:
I'm just glad that we pay you to make 30 minute poasts that miss the point on a shit website.AZDuck said:
Japan's Shinkansen, Birthplace of High Speed RailPurpleJ said:Add rail transport to things ruined by the government.
France's TGV, World's Fastest Train
Germany's High Speed ICE Network
Switzerland's Integrated Rail Network - One ticket for Rail, Trams, Buses Goes Everywhere
Zurich Tram and Bus Map - Metro Area 2.4 million
Tokyo Commuter Rail and Metro Map - Metro Area 35 million
London Metro Map
New Gotthard Tunnel Under the Alps
Spain's High Speed Rail Network
China's High Speed Rail Network
South Korea's High Speed Rail Network
Kuala Lumpur(!) High Speed Metro
Istanbul Tunnel Under the Bosphorus Connecting Europe and Asia
Portland's Rail Network (built since 1986)
And then there's Seattle and Tacoma
Tac Town Lame
When government investment is creating high-speed rail subway, commuter rail and light rail links that bridge continents, tunnel under Alps, move millions of people a day faster, more comfortably, more efficiently and with less pollution than the US dependence on air travel
and cars (hello, let's sit for a while) ... AND
The Spanish, the Turks, the Malaysians and even fucking communist Portland are kicking your ass at it-
It might be time to reconsider your position.
The problem isn't getting around the state nor the Country, The problem is getting around town. And your big phallic bullet trains don't serve that need. Only London and half ass Portland demonstrate better alternatives than driving your car to get around town. -
Personally, whenever I need a ride, I'd rather just hit a button on my smart phone and have a vehicle show up that will take me anywhere I want to go, at any time of day, for an unsubsidized, modest fee.
21st century solutions for a 21st century world are working in over 75 countries/500 cities around the world, right now, today. Rapid expansion would be instantaneous if government would get the fuck out of the way.
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who paid for the road that your Uber drove on?doogie said:Personally, whenever I need a ride, I'd rather just hit a button on my smart phone and have a vehicle show up that will take me anywhere I want to go, at any time of day, for an unsubsidized, modest fee.
21st century solutions for a 21st century world are working in over 75 countries/500 cities around the world, right now, today. Rapid expansion would be instantaneous if government would get the fuck out of the way.
TAXPAYERS DID!
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After the government stole a bunch of the ROAD and GAS taxes to pay for idiotic 19th century techAZDuck said:
who paid for the road that your Uber drove on?doogie said:Personally, whenever I need a ride, I'd rather just hit a button on my smart phone and have a vehicle show up that will take me anywhere I want to go, at any time of day, for an unsubsidized, modest fee.
21st century solutions for a 21st century world are working in over 75 countries/500 cities around the world, right now, today. Rapid expansion would be instantaneous if government would get the fuck out of the way.
TAXPAYERS DID!
