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What I think about taxes
Comments
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Can you stop plagiarising my shit, fucko? I own rape this week.2001400ex said:
It'll feel like it when I'm done.TurdBuffer said:
Hondo is a gang?2001400ex said:
You see, part of your benefits goes into a pension. Just like business offer 401k plans and put money into that. When they put money into the pension, it grows over time. Then later you have an annuity that pays you out your earnings. And if the plan is fully funded, it's fully your money. Are you saying the Boeing mechanic that gets $45k a year in pension is sucking off Boeing's teet?TurdBuffer said:
Okay, expert: Enlighten.2001400ex said:
That's not how pensions work.oregonblitzkrieg said:
Bellotti doesn't need to be suckling off the state of Oregon's teat to the tune of $44,749.83 per month.2001400ex said:
It's almost like you don't understand how pensions work.oregonblitzkrieg said:
I'm more concerned that Mike Belotti will be able to continue to receive his lifetime monthly salary of $44,749.83 from Oregon PERS.2001400ex said:
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.oregonblitzkrieg said:Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
And you sound poor.
It's almost like you don't understand obscene government waste.
Again turdfucker, you are fucking clueless. How does it feel to get repeatedly gang raped by Hondo? -
Too much conflating. Education is not a pure public good, though it may and can be argued to have some characteristics in common with public goods. And "public" education is not the only answer to benefitting society as a whole with an educated citizenry.AZDuck said:
Alright, so I'm seeing "command him to do at gunpoint," and I'm interpreting that as "taxes," because my experience of libertarian cosmology is that taxes are forcibly taken from the taxpayer either by coercion or the threat of coercion or actual force.GrundleStiltzkin said:
I've more thoughts than willing type on phone.AZDuck said:
It's more fun when I'm not arguing with GoebbelsDuck.GrundleStiltzkin said:
Perhaps we crossed terms. I meantt good as in goods & services. No question that broadly available public education is a societal good. Compulsory, publicly funded education is probably on balance a good thing(tm). Could also be the largest corporate welfare program in history.AZDuck said:
Gotta disagree. Education makes the pack (flock?) smarter and better. Also keeps the little hoodlums off the streets. Show me a country with an entirely private educational system and I'll show you sub-Saharan Africa, or the Middle Ages.GrundleStiltzkin said:
Education of any level is a legitimate private good. Coercive force is not.AZDuck said:
Srsly. Do you really fucking think primary education and public safety are private goods? If so, kill your face with a rusty cheese grater in the ass. If you're trolling, well done.Fenderbender123 said:
Why pretend like taxes are the only way to pay for stuff? Are you incapable of spending money yourself?2001400ex said:
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.oregonblitzkrieg said:Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
I do think "primary education and public safety" is a false equivalency.
I would posit that an educated society is as important to public safety, if not more so, than the police and fire departments combined.
Seems to be a fundamental theme of most people of good will along spectrum. We? basically want the same good things in life for another. The difference is the means by which to affect those outcomes. To be even more reductive: what are the things I would convince my neighbor to do, and what are the things I'd command him to do at gunpoint.
Again, I would argue that a democratic system, with all of its flaws and shortcomings, serves as the means of convincing my neighbors. To do otherwise would be to have a system of voluntary contributions to pay for the good in question (public education), which leads us to the good old "free rider" problem or the "tragedy of the commons." But if we reduce education as a good to be received only by those whose parents pay for it, we're back in private-education land which is worse for all of us. (See, e.g. Liberia, 19th century America, other places where the overall life expectancy is somewhere between 35-50).
Put another way, "taxes are the price we pay for living in a civilized society." I didn't come up with that, Oliver Wendell Holmes did.
The libertarian ethos is really attractive and tempting because its logic is simple and elegant - you put in what you take out. But the world as we know it is strewn with cases where it isn't that simple.
There are no free markets for house fires, muggings, terrorist bombings, and cancer. Those are just bad things that happen to some people and not to others. But the overwhelming majority of Americans would readily agree that we should pay taxes for firemen, policemen, armed forces, and a lesser proportion who would agree that we should pay taxes to subsidize health care, because we? (society) as a whole benefit(s). Again, I think schools go in that list as well.
Democracy is the least bad way of paying for these goods - everyone has an interest, therefore everyone pays. If taxes get too high - the peasants revolt. Too low, the government either fails to function effectively or it borrows itself into oblivion. Also, history has shown that high levels of income inequality correlate strongly with corruption and societal violence.
The Scandinavian countries were among the world's poorest in the 19th century, but the overall levels of income inequality were relatively low for the time. Thus, Scandinavia sent millions of immigrants to America and Canada and also maintained strong levels of societal cohesion. When Scandinavia became wealthy, the levels of inequality remained low, and thus those countries do really well on indices of crime, public safety, health, and educational attainment. Finland is generally regarded as having the best primary school system in the world. Their system is entirely-state-run, to include subsidized meals for all students, and begins with pre-K and goes through college. Life expectancy is 84 for women and 78 for men.
Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere with extraordinarily high levels of income inequality. 90% of Haiti's schools are non-public, corruption is high, and literacy is around 60%. It is also one of the most dangerous places in the Western Hemisphere. Life expectancy at birth is about 63.
Without a strong public school system, I believe America is well on its way to becoming Brazil with nukes. But I also think there is still time to fix the problem. -
Did you read about"fully funded"? If they put in 4% of his salary over 21 years into the pension plan, the payments make more sense.TurdBuffer said:
That's not how Bellotti's pension is funded, at all, Hondo. It's a Defined Benefit Plan, not a Defined Contribution Plan, where a particular amount is pre-determined and the plan administrators then try to maximize the fund's return to keep all the promises they gave away to people like Belotti. Yes, a fraction of Belotti's salary or benefits package goes to fund the pension, but not nearly enough to cover it's cost, without presuming fantastic annual returns by the fund. The assumed annual returns on the Oregon PERS Plan have been 7.5%, which is ridiculous and because the fund has been earning returns of around 3% to date, will have to rise to 10.5% to catch up with it's obligations and prevent a massive budget crises for the State of Oregon this year. The classic "Defined Benefit Plan" is more akin to Social Security where many beneficiaries withdraw far more than they ever paid into the fund, than a 401k, so you get a "D+" on this assignment for not knowing the difference.2001400ex said:
You see, part of your benefits goes into a pension. Just like business offer 401k plans and put money into that. When they put money into the pension, it grows over time. Then later you have an annuity that pays you out your earnings. And if the plan is fully funded, it's fully your money. Are you saying the Boeing mechanic that gets $45k a year in pension is sucking off Boeing's teet?TurdBuffer said:
Okay, expert: Enlighten.2001400ex said:
That's not how pensions work.oregonblitzkrieg said:
Bellotti doesn't need to be suckling off the state of Oregon's teat to the tune of $44,749.83 per month.2001400ex said:
It's almost like you don't understand how pensions work.oregonblitzkrieg said:
I'm more concerned that Mike Belotti will be able to continue to receive his lifetime monthly salary of $44,749.83 from Oregon PERS.2001400ex said:
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.oregonblitzkrieg said:Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
And you sound poor.
It's almost like you don't understand obscene government waste.
Again turdfucker, you are fucking clueless. How does it feel to get repeatedly gang raped by Hondo?
Nothing's funnier than watching a burger-flipper talk above his pay grade and rope-a-doping him into hanging himself with his own rope. -
To give Hondo a 'slight' benefit of the doubt, there are varying degrees of the PERS plan. My gravy train is on PERS II, for instance. PERS 1 is the shit but that's kind of going the way of the dinosaur - newbies don't get that any more.TurdBuffer said:
That's not how Bellotti's pension is funded, at all, Hondo. It's a Defined Benefit Plan, not a Defined Contribution Plan, where a particular amount is pre-determined and the plan administrators then try to maximize the fund's return to keep all the promises they gave away to people like Belotti. Yes, a fraction of Belotti's salary or benefits package goes to fund the pension, but not nearly enough to cover it's cost, without presuming fantastic annual returns by the fund. The assumed annual returns on the Oregon PERS Plan have been 7.5%, which is ridiculous and because the fund has been earning returns of around 3% to date, will have to rise to 10.5% to catch up with it's obligations and prevent a massive budget crises for the State of Oregon this year. The classic "Defined Benefit Plan" is more akin to Social Security where many beneficiaries withdraw far more than they ever paid into the fund, than a 401k, so you get a "D+" on this assignment for not knowing the difference.2001400ex said:
You see, part of your benefits goes into a pension. Just like business offer 401k plans and put money into that. When they put money into the pension, it grows over time. Then later you have an annuity that pays you out your earnings. And if the plan is fully funded, it's fully your money. Are you saying the Boeing mechanic that gets $45k a year in pension is sucking off Boeing's teet?TurdBuffer said:
Okay, expert: Enlighten.2001400ex said:
That's not how pensions work.oregonblitzkrieg said:
Bellotti doesn't need to be suckling off the state of Oregon's teat to the tune of $44,749.83 per month.2001400ex said:
It's almost like you don't understand how pensions work.oregonblitzkrieg said:
I'm more concerned that Mike Belotti will be able to continue to receive his lifetime monthly salary of $44,749.83 from Oregon PERS.2001400ex said:
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.oregonblitzkrieg said:Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
And you sound poor.
It's almost like you don't understand obscene government waste.
Again turdfucker, you are fucking clueless. How does it feel to get repeatedly gang raped by Hondo?
Nothing's funnier than watching a burger-flipper talk above his pay grade and rope-a-doping him into hanging himself with his own rope.
But, in general, his interpretation is fucked up and @TurdBuffer's is spot on.
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No, I don't think they are private services. I'm saying they could be. Hondo's comment implied that there is no other way to pay for these services other than taxes, which is incorrect.AZDuck said:
Srsly. Do you really fucking think primary education and public safety are private goods?
I guess it's hard for people to imagine a society where people were actually free to make their own choices on how to protect themselves, and how their children will be spending 15,000+ hours of their childhood development, so they just go along with the one-size-fits-all model we have going on, and assume that if it's taken away, there would suddenly be no such thing as safety or education anymore. -
The problem is that we have the worst public schools in he developed world and about 40% of my property taxes go to support them. And in Oregon we are at the bottom of the barrel. I realize that we need to fund a public school system, but they need to be managed 300% better than they currently are being managed. But there is no check nor balance to see that better results are attained. It's a lot like that in most government entities.TurdBuffer said:
There's a rather simple reply to this. We want an educated population. Not that we are guaranteed to have one, but kids in the US need to be educated and by doing so, we raise better citizens that we all have to share the community with. Empowerment of individuals is a noble goal, even for the kids of total bums who sit on the couch all day. At least the kids have a chance someday. There's no way we'd be a better society or have safer streets to walk on if we didn't pay taxes to help kids other than our own.Fenderbender123 said:
Why pretend like taxes are the only way to pay for stuff? Are you incapable of spending money yourself?2001400ex said:
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.oregonblitzkrieg said:Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
I wish people wouldn't have kids they can't support and educate, but the government needs future taxpayers, so the policy will always be to grow them like crops.
And honestly, one skim of these boreds tells us we have enough losers already. We don't need more. -
What if I said that if helping poor kids get an education was important to you, that you are free to open up your wallet and help pay for it? And what if I said you could have more money to pay for it if you weren't taxed for it in the first place?TurdBuffer said:There's no way we'd be a better society or have safer streets to walk on if we didn't pay taxes to help kids other than our own.
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Why? A guy that retired making $3.5 million annually and had almost 20 years there should have a pension to match.oregonblitzkrieg said:
I'm more concerned that Mike Belotti will be able to continue to receive his lifetime monthly salary of $44,749.83 from Oregon PERS.2001400ex said:
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.oregonblitzkrieg said:Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
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Bad logic. His rather prodigious income during employment is irrelevant except to act as a lightning rod pointing to the lack of need for a pension in his case. However, regardless of gluttony, he is entitled to the pension that was agreed upon in his terms of employment, period, end of argument.Mosster47 said:
Why? A guy that retired making $3.5 million annually and had almost 20 years there should have a pension to match.oregonblitzkrieg said:
I'm more concerned that Mike Belotti will be able to continue to receive his lifetime monthly salary of $44,749.83 from Oregon PERS.2001400ex said:
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.oregonblitzkrieg said:Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
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I like top use Oregon's highest paid employee as a baseline in my argument that employees don't pay enough into pensions. It's what I like to do.oregonblitzkrieg said:
If Belotti lives another 20 years from this month forward, he will have been paid $10,739,959.20 from Oregon PERS. Please to be providing stats showing Belotti paid this much or more into PERS. And after you do that, please to be bungee jumping off the Space Needle without a bungee cord.2001400ex said:
Again. The money is paid in during his tenure. What part of that don't you understand?oregonblitzkrieg said:
Who gives a fuck. Rip it up.AZDuck said:HE HAD A CONTRACT!
Seriously. It's right there, in the Contracts clause of the Constitution.
The State of Oregon offered way too generous of pension plan for employees for decades and then made some changes to where it isn't as abusive to the tax payer. However there are still plenty of Tier 1 folks out there that will live 20 or more years and there is no answer to funding that so far other than lowering the pension programs of existing state employees. It's what needs to be done as about 90% of the states private employees have not pension and about half have access to a 401K or like retirement account.
But for those that say that workers that DO have a pension are leeches, they need to become aware of the total cost of benefits as related to a job.
