Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
I'm more concerned that Mike Belotti will be able to continue to receive his lifetime monthly salary of $44,749.83 from Oregon PERS.
It's almost like you don't understand how pensions work.
And you sound poor.
Bellotti doesn't need to be suckling off the state of Oregon's teat to the tune of $44,749.83 per month.
It's almost like you don't understand obscene government waste.
That's not how pensions work.
Okay, expert: Enlighten.
You see, part of your benefits goes into a pension. Just like business offer 401k plans and put money into that. When they put money into the pension, it grows over time. Then later you have an annuity that pays you out your earnings. And if the plan is fully funded, it's fully your money. Are you saying the Boeing mechanic that gets $45k a year in pension is sucking off Boeing's teet?
Again turdfucker, you are fucking clueless. How does it feel to get repeatedly gang raped by Hondo?
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
Why pretend like taxes are the only way to pay for stuff? Are you incapable of spending money yourself?
Srsly. Do you really fucking think primary education and public safety are private goods? If so, kill your face with a rusty cheese grater in the ass. If you're trolling, well done.
Education of any level is a legitimate private good. Coercive force is not.
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
Why pretend like taxes are the only way to pay for stuff? Are you incapable of spending money yourself?
Srsly. Do you really fucking think primary education and public safety are private goods? If so, kill your face with a rusty cheese grater in the ass. If you're trolling, well done.
Education of any level is a legitimate private good. Coercive force is not.
Gotta disagree. Education makes the pack (flock?) smarter and better. Also keeps the little hoodlums off the streets. Show me a country with an entirely private educational system and I'll show you sub-Saharan Africa, or the Middle Ages.
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
Why pretend like taxes are the only way to pay for stuff? Are you incapable of spending money yourself?
Srsly. Do you really fucking think primary education and public safety are private goods? If so, kill your face with a rusty cheese grater in the ass. If you're trolling, well done.
Education of any level is a legitimate private good. Coercive force is not.
Gotta disagree. Education makes the pack (flock?) smarter and better. Also keeps the little hoodlums off the streets. Show me a country with an entirely private educational system and I'll show you sub-Saharan Africa, or the Middle Ages.
Perhaps we crossed terms. I meantt good as in goods & services. No question that broadly available public education is a societal good. Compulsory, publicly funded education is probably on balance a good thing(tm). Could also be the largest corporate welfare program in history.
I do think "primary education and public safety" is a false equivalency.
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
Why pretend like taxes are the only way to pay for stuff? Are you incapable of spending money yourself?
Srsly. Do you really fucking think primary education and public safety are private goods? If so, kill your face with a rusty cheese grater in the ass. If you're trolling, well done.
Education of any level is a legitimate private good. Coercive force is not.
Gotta disagree. Education makes the pack (flock?) smarter and better. Also keeps the little hoodlums off the streets. Show me a country with an entirely private educational system and I'll show you sub-Saharan Africa, or the Middle Ages.
Perhaps we crossed terms. I meantt good as in goods & services. No question that broadly available public education is a societal good. Compulsory, publicly funded education is probably on balance a good thing(tm). Could also be the largest corporate welfare program in history.
I do think "primary education and public safety" is a false equivalency.
It's more fun when I'm not arguing with GoebbelsDuck.
I would posit that an educated society is as important to public safety, if not more so, than the police and fire departments combined.
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
Why pretend like taxes are the only way to pay for stuff? Are you incapable of spending money yourself?
Srsly. Do you really fucking think primary education and public safety are private goods? If so, kill your face with a rusty cheese grater in the ass. If you're trolling, well done.
Education of any level is a legitimate private good. Coercive force is not.
Gotta disagree. Education makes the pack (flock?) smarter and better. Also keeps the little hoodlums off the streets. Show me a country with an entirely private educational system and I'll show you sub-Saharan Africa, or the Middle Ages.
Perhaps we crossed terms. I meantt good as in goods & services. No question that broadly available public education is a societal good. Compulsory, publicly funded education is probably on balance a good thing(tm). Could also be the largest corporate welfare program in history.
I do think "primary education and public safety" is a false equivalency.
It's more fun when I'm not arguing with GoebbelsDuck.
I would posit that an educated society is as important to public safety, if not more so, than the police and fire departments combined.
I've more thoughts than willing type on phone.
Seems to be a fundamental theme of most people of good will along spectrum. We? basically want the same good things in life for another. The difference is the means by which to affect those outcomes. To be even more reductive: what are the things I would convince my neighbor to do, and what are the things I'd command him to do at gunpoint.
Seriously. It's right there, in the Contracts clause of the Constitution.
Who gives a fuck. Rip it up.
Again. The money is paid in during his tenure. What part of that don't you understand?
If Belotti lives another 20 years from this month forward, he will have been paid $10,739,959.20 from Oregon PERS. Please to be providing stats showing Belotti paid this much or more into PERS. And after you do that, please to be bungee jumping off the Space Needle without a bungee cord.
Seriously. It's right there, in the Contracts clause of the Constitution.
Who gives a fuck. Rip it up.
Again. The money is paid in during his tenure. What part of that don't you understand?
If Belotti lives another 20 years from this month forward, he will have been paid $10,739,959.20 from Oregon PERS. Please to be providing stats showing Belotti paid this much or more into PERS. And after you do that, please to be bungee jumping off the Space Needle without a bungee cord.
Belotti was at Oregon for 21 years. You don't think over that time, that contributions for his benefit package don't add up to that amount? Have you heard of the time value of money?
Seriously. It's right there, in the Contracts clause of the Constitution.
Who gives a fuck. Rip it up.
Again. The money is paid in during his tenure. What part of that don't you understand?
If Belotti lives another 20 years from this month forward, he will have been paid $10,739,959.20 from Oregon PERS. Please to be providing stats showing Belotti paid this much or more into PERS. And after you do that, please to be bungee jumping off the Space Needle without a bungee cord.
Belotti was at Oregon for 21 years. You don't think over that time, that contributions for his benefit package don't add up to that amount? Have you heard of the time value of money?
The reason there is outrage is that private industry went away from the defined pension plan in the 1980's and replaced it with 401ks. Salaries generally were higher than in public service.
Government entities on the other hand stuck with that model - and in exchange workers received less in the way of salaries and wages.
As time has passed, government workers have hung on to the pension system AND progressively increased their wages. All with essentially no risk of termination due to civil service and public employee unions - a total farce.
Seriously. It's right there, in the Contracts clause of the Constitution.
Who gives a fuck. Rip it up.
Again. The money is paid in during his tenure. What part of that don't you understand?
If Belotti lives another 20 years from this month forward, he will have been paid $10,739,959.20 from Oregon PERS. Please to be providing stats showing Belotti paid this much or more into PERS. And after you do that, please to be bungee jumping off the Space Needle without a bungee cord.
Belotti was at Oregon for 21 years. You don't think over that time, that contributions for his benefit package don't add up to that amount? Have you heard of the time value of money?
The reason there is outrage is that private industry went away from the defined pension plan in the 1980's and replaced it with 401ks. Salaries generally were higher than in public service.
Government entities on the other hand stuck with that model - and in exchange workers received less in the way of salaries and wages.
As time has passed, government workers have hung on to the pension system AND progressively increased their wages. All with essentially no risk of termination due to civil service and public employee unions - a total farce.
Belotti is the winner of a fucked up system.
Belotti had to live in Eugene and survive parking lot rapes for 21 years. I don't call that winning.
Seriously. It's right there, in the Contracts clause of the Constitution.
Who gives a fuck. Rip it up.
Again. The money is paid in during his tenure. What part of that don't you understand?
If Belotti lives another 20 years from this month forward, he will have been paid $10,739,959.20 from Oregon PERS. Please to be providing stats showing Belotti paid this much or more into PERS. And after you do that, please to be bungee jumping off the Space Needle without a bungee cord.
Belotti was at Oregon for 21 years. You don't think over that time, that contributions for his benefit package don't add up to that amount? Have you heard of the time value of money?
The reason there is outrage is that private industry went away from the defined pension plan in the 1980's and replaced it with 401ks. Salaries generally were higher than in public service.
Government entities on the other hand stuck with that model - and in exchange workers received less in the way of salaries and wages.
As time has passed, government workers have hung on to the pension system AND progressively increased their wages. All with essentially no risk of termination due to civil service and public employee unions - a total farce.
Belotti is the winner of a fucked up system.
Belotti had to live in Eugene and commit parking lot rapes for 21 years. I don't call that winning.
Seriously. It's right there, in the Contracts clause of the Constitution.
Who gives a fuck. Rip it up.
Again. The money is paid in during his tenure. What part of that don't you understand?
If Belotti lives another 20 years from this month forward, he will have been paid $10,739,959.20 from Oregon PERS. Please to be providing stats showing Belotti paid this much or more into PERS. And after you do that, please to be bungee jumping off the Space Needle without a bungee cord.
Belotti was at Oregon for 21 years. You don't think over that time, that contributions for his benefit package don't add up to that amount? Have you heard of the time value of money?
The reason there is outrage is that private industry went away from the defined pension plan in the 1980's and replaced it with 401ks. Salaries generally were higher than in public service.
Government entities on the other hand stuck with that model - and in exchange workers received less in the way of salaries and wages.
As time has passed, government workers have hung on to the pension system AND progressively increased their wages. All with essentially no risk of termination due to civil service and public employee unions - a total farce.
Belotti is the winner of a fucked up system.
Belotti had to live in Eugene and survive parking lot rapes for 21 years. I don't call that winning.
His wife paid back the community with certain sexual favors. Community property state - fair trade.
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
Why pretend like taxes are the only way to pay for stuff? Are you incapable of spending money yourself?
Srsly. Do you really fucking think primary education and public safety are private goods? If so, kill your face with a rusty cheese grater in the ass. If you're trolling, well done.
Education of any level is a legitimate private good. Coercive force is not.
Gotta disagree. Education makes the pack (flock?) smarter and better. Also keeps the little hoodlums off the streets. Show me a country with an entirely private educational system and I'll show you sub-Saharan Africa, or the Middle Ages.
Perhaps we crossed terms. I meantt good as in goods & services. No question that broadly available public education is a societal good. Compulsory, publicly funded education is probably on balance a good thing(tm). Could also be the largest corporate welfare program in history.
I do think "primary education and public safety" is a false equivalency.
It's more fun when I'm not arguing with GoebbelsDuck.
I would posit that an educated society is as important to public safety, if not more so, than the police and fire departments combined.
I've more thoughts than willing type on phone.
Seems to be a fundamental theme of most people of good will along spectrum. We? basically want the same good things in life for another. The difference is the means by which to affect those outcomes. To be even more reductive: what are the things I would convince my neighbor to do, and what are the things I'd command him to do at gunpoint.
Well done @GrundleStiltzkin, you've made some excellent points in this thread regarding public vs private goods, and I agree, the OP was half right on this topic. Cheers.
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
Why pretend like taxes are the only way to pay for stuff? Are you incapable of spending money yourself?
Srsly. Do you really fucking think primary education and public safety are private goods? If so, kill your face with a rusty cheese grater in the ass. If you're trolling, well done.
Education of any level is a legitimate private good. Coercive force is not.
Gotta disagree. Education makes the pack (flock?) smarter and better. Also keeps the little hoodlums off the streets. Show me a country with an entirely private educational system and I'll show you sub-Saharan Africa, or the Middle Ages.
Perhaps we crossed terms. I meantt good as in goods & services. No question that broadly available public education is a societal good. Compulsory, publicly funded education is probably on balance a good thing(tm). Could also be the largest corporate welfare program in history.
I do think "primary education and public safety" is a false equivalency.
It's more fun when I'm not arguing with GoebbelsDuck.
I would posit that an educated society is as important to public safety, if not more so, than the police and fire departments combined.
I've more thoughts than willing type on phone.
Seems to be a fundamental theme of most people of good will along spectrum. We? basically want the same good things in life for another. The difference is the means by which to affect those outcomes. To be even more reductive: what are the things I would convince my neighbor to do, and what are the things I'd command him to do at gunpoint.
Alright, so I'm seeing "command him to do at gunpoint," and I'm interpreting that as "taxes," because my experience of libertarian cosmology is that taxes are forcibly taken from the taxpayer either by coercion or the threat of coercion or actual force.
Again, I would argue that a democratic system, with all of its flaws and shortcomings, serves as the means of convincing my neighbors. To do otherwise would be to have a system of voluntary contributions to pay for the good in question (public education), which leads us to the good old "free rider" problem or the "tragedy of the commons." But if we reduce education as a good to be received only by those whose parents pay for it, we're back in private-education land which is worse for all of us. (See, e.g. Liberia, 19th century America, other places where the overall life expectancy is somewhere between 35-50).
Put another way, "taxes are the price we pay for living in a civilized society." I didn't come up with that, Oliver Wendell Holmes did.
The libertarian ethos is really attractive and tempting because its logic is simple and elegant - you put in what you take out. But the world as we know it is strewn with cases where it isn't that simple.
There are no free markets for house fires, muggings, terrorist bombings, and cancer. Those are just bad things that happen to some people and not to others. But the overwhelming majority of Americans would readily agree that we should pay taxes for firemen, policemen, armed forces, and a lesser proportion who would agree that we should pay taxes to subsidize health care, because we? (society) as a whole benefit(s). Again, I think schools go in that list as well.
Democracy is the least bad way of paying for these goods - everyone has an interest, therefore everyone pays. If taxes get too high - the peasants revolt. Too low, the government either fails to function effectively or it borrows itself into oblivion. Also, history has shown that high levels of income inequality correlate strongly with corruption and societal violence.
The Scandinavian countries were among the world's poorest in the 19th century, but the overall levels of income inequality were relatively low for the time. Thus, Scandinavia sent millions of immigrants to America and Canada and also maintained strong levels of societal cohesion. When Scandinavia became wealthy, the levels of inequality remained low, and thus those countries do really well on indices of crime, public safety, health, and educational attainment. Finland is generally regarded as having the best primary school system in the world. Their system is entirely-state-run, to include subsidized meals for all students, and begins with pre-K and goes through college. Life expectancy is 84 for women and 78 for men.
Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere with extraordinarily high levels of income inequality. 90% of Haiti's schools are non-public, corruption is high, and literacy is around 60%. It is also one of the most dangerous places in the Western Hemisphere. Life expectancy at birth is about 63.
Without a strong public school system, I believe America is well on its way to becoming Brazil with nukes. But I also think there is still time to fix the problem.
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
I'm more concerned that Mike Belotti will be able to continue to receive his lifetime monthly salary of $44,749.83 from Oregon PERS.
It's almost like you don't understand how pensions work.
And you sound poor.
Bellotti doesn't need to be suckling off the state of Oregon's teat to the tune of $44,749.83 per month.
It's almost like you don't understand obscene government waste.
That's not how pensions work.
Okay, expert: Enlighten.
You see, part of your benefits goes into a pension. Just like business offer 401k plans and put money into that. When they put money into the pension, it grows over time. Then later you have an annuity that pays you out your earnings. And if the plan is fully funded, it's fully your money. Are you saying the Boeing mechanic that gets $45k a year in pension is sucking off Boeing's teet?
Again turdfucker, you are fucking clueless. How does it feel to get repeatedly gang raped by Hondo?
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
I'm more concerned that Mike Belotti will be able to continue to receive his lifetime monthly salary of $44,749.83 from Oregon PERS.
It's almost like you don't understand how pensions work.
And you sound poor.
Bellotti doesn't need to be suckling off the state of Oregon's teat to the tune of $44,749.83 per month.
It's almost like you don't understand obscene government waste.
That's not how pensions work.
Okay, expert: Enlighten.
You see, part of your benefits goes into a pension. Just like business offer 401k plans and put money into that. When they put money into the pension, it grows over time. Then later you have an annuity that pays you out your earnings. And if the plan is fully funded, it's fully your money. Are you saying the Boeing mechanic that gets $45k a year in pension is sucking off Boeing's teet?
Again turdfucker, you are fucking clueless. How does it feel to get repeatedly gang raped by Hondo?
Property taxes are just another form of state sanctioned theft and should be abolished. As long as property taxes exist, no one truly owns the land they live on and the basement they sleep in, they are just renting it from the government. Fuck property taxes.
Great idea. We don't need schools and police and shit.
I'm more concerned that Mike Belotti will be able to continue to receive his lifetime monthly salary of $44,749.83 from Oregon PERS.
It's almost like you don't understand how pensions work.
And you sound poor.
Bellotti doesn't need to be suckling off the state of Oregon's teat to the tune of $44,749.83 per month.
It's almost like you don't understand obscene government waste.
That's not how pensions work.
Okay, expert: Enlighten.
You see, part of your benefits goes into a pension. Just like business offer 401k plans and put money into that. When they put money into the pension, it grows over time. Then later you have an annuity that pays you out your earnings. And if the plan is fully funded, it's fully your money. Are you saying the Boeing mechanic that gets $45k a year in pension is sucking off Boeing's teet?
Again turdfucker, you are fucking clueless. How does it feel to get repeatedly gang raped by Hondo?
That's not how Bellotti's pension is funded, at all, Hondo. It's a Defined Benefit Plan, not a Defined Contribution Plan, where a particular amount is pre-determined and the plan administrators then try to maximize the fund's return to keep all the promises they gave away to people like Belotti. Yes, a fraction of Belotti's salary or benefits package goes to fund the pension, but not nearly enough to cover it's cost, without presuming fantastic annual returns by the fund. The assumed annual returns on the Oregon PERS Plan have been 7.5%, which is ridiculous and because the fund has been earning returns of around 3% to date, will have to rise to 10.5% to catch up with it's obligations and prevent a massive budget crises for the State of Oregon this year. The classic "Defined Benefit Plan" is more akin to Social Security where many beneficiaries withdraw far more than they ever paid into the fund, than a 401k, so you get a "D+" on this assignment for not knowing the difference.
Nothing's funnier than watching a burger-flipper talk above his pay grade and rope-a-doping him into hanging himself with his own rope.
Comments
Again turdfucker, you are fucking clueless. How does it feel to get repeatedly gang raped by Hondo?
I do think "primary education and public safety" is a false equivalency.
I would posit that an educated society is as important to public safety, if not more so, than the police and fire departments combined.
Seems to be a fundamental theme of most people of good will along spectrum. We? basically want the same good things in life for another. The difference is the means by which to affect those outcomes. To be even more reductive: what are the things I would convince my neighbor to do, and what are the things I'd command him to do at gunpoint.
Government entities on the other hand stuck with that model - and in exchange workers received less in the way of salaries and wages.
As time has passed, government workers have hung on to the pension system AND progressively increased their wages. All with essentially no risk of termination due to civil service and public employee unions - a total farce.
Belotti is the winner of a fucked up system.
Again, I would argue that a democratic system, with all of its flaws and shortcomings, serves as the means of convincing my neighbors. To do otherwise would be to have a system of voluntary contributions to pay for the good in question (public education), which leads us to the good old "free rider" problem or the "tragedy of the commons." But if we reduce education as a good to be received only by those whose parents pay for it, we're back in private-education land which is worse for all of us. (See, e.g. Liberia, 19th century America, other places where the overall life expectancy is somewhere between 35-50).
Put another way, "taxes are the price we pay for living in a civilized society." I didn't come up with that, Oliver Wendell Holmes did.
The libertarian ethos is really attractive and tempting because its logic is simple and elegant - you put in what you take out. But the world as we know it is strewn with cases where it isn't that simple.
There are no free markets for house fires, muggings, terrorist bombings, and cancer. Those are just bad things that happen to some people and not to others. But the overwhelming majority of Americans would readily agree that we should pay taxes for firemen, policemen, armed forces, and a lesser proportion who would agree that we should pay taxes to subsidize health care, because we? (society) as a whole benefit(s). Again, I think schools go in that list as well.
Democracy is the least bad way of paying for these goods - everyone has an interest, therefore everyone pays. If taxes get too high - the peasants revolt. Too low, the government either fails to function effectively or it borrows itself into oblivion. Also, history has shown that high levels of income inequality correlate strongly with corruption and societal violence.
The Scandinavian countries were among the world's poorest in the 19th century, but the overall levels of income inequality were relatively low for the time. Thus, Scandinavia sent millions of immigrants to America and Canada and also maintained strong levels of societal cohesion. When Scandinavia became wealthy, the levels of inequality remained low, and thus those countries do really well on indices of crime, public safety, health, and educational attainment. Finland is generally regarded as having the best primary school system in the world. Their system is entirely-state-run, to include subsidized meals for all students, and begins with pre-K and goes through college. Life expectancy is 84 for women and 78 for men.
Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere with extraordinarily high levels of income inequality. 90% of Haiti's schools are non-public, corruption is high, and literacy is around 60%. It is also one of the most dangerous places in the Western Hemisphere. Life expectancy at birth is about 63.
Without a strong public school system, I believe America is well on its way to becoming Brazil with nukes. But I also think there is still time to fix the problem.
Nothing's funnier than watching a burger-flipper talk above his pay grade and rope-a-doping him into hanging himself with his own rope.