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With both Sanders and Trump calling for single payer health care and increasing taxes on the wealthy
Comments
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It's unfair to characterize insurance companies as the only winners from Obamacare. As with any public policy, there are winners and plenty of collateral damage. Before Obamacare, there were millions of Americans who were flat out denied healthcare coverage because they were too risky to insure. That problem has been effectively eliminated by the law. Of course, the natural economic effect of flooding a large pool of risky customers into the marketplace meant that many people saw increased premiums, and in some cases, they lost their doctor. The next step is to lower costs and address the massive amounts of waste that exist in the current system. If I had a policy proposal that could do that, I'd be working in DC right now.RaceBannon said:
With medicare you could keep your doctor.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Or, you know, Medicare.RaceBannon said:Then we can all get great care like the VA
But it's totally moot. Single-payer is one of the most unachievable policies out there.
At this point we need to overhaul the system because we keep making it worse. People want those that can't afford care to get it. I do.
The question is how to do that while also allowing those that got good insurance from their job or union to keep it and keep the free choice of providers and care.
Obamacare was written by insurance companies. They were the only winners. Everyone else lost.
If I actually thought we could eliminate insurance with single payer and bring back our level of care I could go for it. I don't have a lot of trust -
We could have wrote a check to the folks who needed insurance or a doctor.GreenRiverGatorz said:
It's unfair to characterize insurance companies as the only winners from Obamacare. As with any public policy, there are winners and plenty of collateral damage. Before Obamacare, there were millions of Americans who were flat out denied healthcare coverage because they were too risky to insure. That problem has been effectively eliminated by the law. Of course, the natural economic effect of flooding a large pool of risky customers into the marketplace meant that many people saw increased premiums, and in some cases, they lost their doctor. The next step is to lower costs and address the massive amounts of waste that exist in the current system. If I had a policy proposal that could do that, I'd be working in DC right now.RaceBannon said:
With medicare you could keep your doctor.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Or, you know, Medicare.RaceBannon said:Then we can all get great care like the VA
But it's totally moot. Single-payer is one of the most unachievable policies out there.
At this point we need to overhaul the system because we keep making it worse. People want those that can't afford care to get it. I do.
The question is how to do that while also allowing those that got good insurance from their job or union to keep it and keep the free choice of providers and care.
Obamacare was written by insurance companies. They were the only winners. Everyone else lost.
If I actually thought we could eliminate insurance with single payer and bring back our level of care I could go for it. I don't have a lot of trust
The collateral damage is severe. -
I'm late but Japan is misclassified as single.UWhuskytskeet said:
Japan has single pay.whatshouldicareabout said:
Do you really know what a single-payer system is?OZONE said:
If 20+ other countries, have all figured out how to have a great, gov't run, single payer systems at a lower cost than ours -- I'm sure ours can.RaceBannon said:Then we can all get great care like the VA
Unless you doubt we are as great as some say we are...
The Netherlands has arguably the best healthcare system in Europe. Are they a single-payer system? Nope. Uh, what about Germany? Nah. Japan? No. France? Nah, multi-payer as well.
There are many wealthy nations that opt for national multi-payer systems versus single-payer. The reason why a single-payer system won't work well in the US is due to its geographic diversity and medical practice. Policies and purchasing is going to be different whether you're in the East, the South, the Midwest, and out here in the West. Blah, blah, blah, I could go into more but I'm lazy, so I'll just end it here.
http://truecostblog.com/2009/08/09/countries-with-universal-healthcare-by-date/
There is a big difference between single, two-pay (what most of the countries you listed have), and insurance mandate (what the US has). Two-tier also has coverage for everyone through the government.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-single-payer-two-tier-and-insurance-mandate-healthcare-systems
I'm lazy so here's wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system_in_Japan -
Or we could just go single payer and take profits out of people's health.RaceBannon said:
We could have wrote a check to the folks who needed insurance or a doctor.GreenRiverGatorz said:
It's unfair to characterize insurance companies as the only winners from Obamacare. As with any public policy, there are winners and plenty of collateral damage. Before Obamacare, there were millions of Americans who were flat out denied healthcare coverage because they were too risky to insure. That problem has been effectively eliminated by the law. Of course, the natural economic effect of flooding a large pool of risky customers into the marketplace meant that many people saw increased premiums, and in some cases, they lost their doctor. The next step is to lower costs and address the massive amounts of waste that exist in the current system. If I had a policy proposal that could do that, I'd be working in DC right now.RaceBannon said:
With medicare you could keep your doctor.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Or, you know, Medicare.RaceBannon said:Then we can all get great care like the VA
But it's totally moot. Single-payer is one of the most unachievable policies out there.
At this point we need to overhaul the system because we keep making it worse. People want those that can't afford care to get it. I do.
The question is how to do that while also allowing those that got good insurance from their job or union to keep it and keep the free choice of providers and care.
Obamacare was written by insurance companies. They were the only winners. Everyone else lost.
If I actually thought we could eliminate insurance with single payer and bring back our level of care I could go for it. I don't have a lot of trust
The collateral damage is severe.
Reality is that'll never happen because the insurance lobby. -
It's almost like we need a political revolution or something.GreenRiverGatorz said:
And that's yet another problem he can't solve, and even more smoke he's blowing up the asses of all of his supporters. Until Citizens United is overturned, nothing is going to change on that front. All he can do is appoint the most liberal justice available if a SCOTUS spot opens up. If that does eventually get overturned, then you have to actually have a Congress that's willing to pass a law that bans campaign contributions from anything other than a public fund. The GOP won't even blink an eye at that proposal. I'm guessing a lot of democrats won't either.allpurpleallgold said:
It can't be done because money in politics. Well too bad Bernie isn't talking about that problem. Then he'd really have something.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Then I'll shoot.allpurpleallgold said:
You'd be the first person to offer a real answer.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Do you want a real answer on why single-payer is not feasible, or are you just here to bitch and moan about the status quo?allpurpleallgold said:
Majority of Americans support a policy. Policy is completely unachievable. Candidate says system is rigged, need a political revolution. Candidate is unelectable.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Or, you know, Medicare.RaceBannon said:Then we can all get great care like the VA
But it's totally moot. Single-payer is one of the most unachievable policies out there.
Tell me again about how we're the greatest nation on earth. Lol.
Single-payer would first and foremost require an end to the massive medical insurance interests that exist in our country. There is simply way too much lobbying and campaign financing from these corporations to ever allow Congress to pass legislation that would effectively bankrupt their business in the United States. That alone makes single-payer a political non-starter. It's the entire reason Obamacare still caters to the industry; it would have never passed and near universal coverage would have never been achieved had it also ran counter to the interests of insurance companies.
Looking past that, there's also the hurdle (that we wouldn't even get to face until the insurance interests are magically erased from Congress) of how politically digestible single-payer would be to the electorate as a whole. While a majority of Americans may favor single-payer in theory (I don't actually know if that's true, but I'm taking your word for it), passing such a law would eliminate their current healthcare plan and start them over from scratch. That's a tough pill to swallow for every well-to-do American who already receives excellent healthcare coverage.
Then there's the issue of taxes, which would almost certainly have to be increased to finance a single-payer system. Of course, the rise in taxes would almost certainly be offset by the elimination of private healthcare premiums for a majority of Americans, but good luck convincing the electorate to make that connection and agree to a brand new payroll tax.
All of that combines for one impossible piece of legislation to push through. Bernie is promising rainbows and bullshit by even putting it on his platform.
Bernie is strong on ideals, and very light on actual solutions in today's political environment.
As long as people shrug their shoulders and say we can't, we won't. -
You're not going to get a revolution when such a large portion of our country finds the very idea of one appalling. Republicans will always control enough of Congress to stop any meaningful legislation from getting through. That's the reality of our political landscape. Bernie has no tools to deal with that.allpurpleallgold said:
It's almost like we need a political revolution or something.GreenRiverGatorz said:
And that's yet another problem he can't solve, and even more smoke he's blowing up the asses of all of his supporters. Until Citizens United is overturned, nothing is going to change on that front. All he can do is appoint the most liberal justice available if a SCOTUS spot opens up. If that does eventually get overturned, then you have to actually have a Congress that's willing to pass a law that bans campaign contributions from anything other than a public fund. The GOP won't even blink an eye at that proposal. I'm guessing a lot of democrats won't either.allpurpleallgold said:
It can't be done because money in politics. Well too bad Bernie isn't talking about that problem. Then he'd really have something.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Then I'll shoot.allpurpleallgold said:
You'd be the first person to offer a real answer.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Do you want a real answer on why single-payer is not feasible, or are you just here to bitch and moan about the status quo?allpurpleallgold said:
Majority of Americans support a policy. Policy is completely unachievable. Candidate says system is rigged, need a political revolution. Candidate is unelectable.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Or, you know, Medicare.RaceBannon said:Then we can all get great care like the VA
But it's totally moot. Single-payer is one of the most unachievable policies out there.
Tell me again about how we're the greatest nation on earth. Lol.
Single-payer would first and foremost require an end to the massive medical insurance interests that exist in our country. There is simply way too much lobbying and campaign financing from these corporations to ever allow Congress to pass legislation that would effectively bankrupt their business in the United States. That alone makes single-payer a political non-starter. It's the entire reason Obamacare still caters to the industry; it would have never passed and near universal coverage would have never been achieved had it also ran counter to the interests of insurance companies.
Looking past that, there's also the hurdle (that we wouldn't even get to face until the insurance interests are magically erased from Congress) of how politically digestible single-payer would be to the electorate as a whole. While a majority of Americans may favor single-payer in theory (I don't actually know if that's true, but I'm taking your word for it), passing such a law would eliminate their current healthcare plan and start them over from scratch. That's a tough pill to swallow for every well-to-do American who already receives excellent healthcare coverage.
Then there's the issue of taxes, which would almost certainly have to be increased to finance a single-payer system. Of course, the rise in taxes would almost certainly be offset by the elimination of private healthcare premiums for a majority of Americans, but good luck convincing the electorate to make that connection and agree to a brand new payroll tax.
All of that combines for one impossible piece of legislation to push through. Bernie is promising rainbows and bullshit by even putting it on his platform.
Bernie is strong on ideals, and very light on actual solutions in today's political environment.
As long as people shrug their shoulders and say we can't, we won't. -
Incrementalism seems to work so well.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Or, you know, Medicare.RaceBannon said:Then we can all get great care like the VA
But it's totally moot. Single-payer is one of the most unachievable policies out there. -
This.RaceBannon said:
With medicare you could keep your doctor.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Or, you know, Medicare.RaceBannon said:Then we can all get great care like the VA
But it's totally moot. Single-payer is one of the most unachievable policies out there.
At this point we need to overhaul the system because we keep making it worse. People want those that can't afford care to get it. I do.
The question is how to do that while also allowing those that got good insurance from their job or union to keep it and keep the free choice of providers and care.
Obamacare was written by insurance companies. They were the only winners. Everyone else lost.
If I actually thought we could eliminate insurance with single payer and bring back our level of care I could go for it. I don't have a lot of trust -
@OZONE
Repealing Glass-Steagall caused the latest Banking collapse and ended up costing the U.S. $6-8 trillion in eventual bailout, welfare damage and severely weakened the dollar via the new debt.
The AMA, ABA, big pharma, and hospitals are making healthcare unaffordable. Both of my parents have had emergency room visits in the past decade, where the hospitals charged them over $350,000 each for heart issues and about 10 days each in the hospital. The current health system isn't sustainable and is being sucked dry (in a bad way) by the above culprits.
Bernie is probably the only candidate who will actually tear apart these 2 broken systems. Everyone else in the field just seems to be owned by the above lobbyists = no change and more debt next year.
All the rest of the candidates look like they would love to be the next CEO of Goldman Scams. $$$
Taiwan is supposedly the healthcare system to model. 6% of GDP.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2015/05/14-taiwan-national-healthcare-cheng -
True, but there seems to be a notable difference between Bernie and the Clinton's, Bush, Obama, and Trump. You can't get to the point Bernie has without a huge ego, but he's more genuinely concerned about the people in this country than the others. The Clinton's Bush's, Obama, and Trump are in it for the power and celebrity. Bernie probably is too, at least part of him, but it doesn't come off as desperate and pathetic like it does for the others.GrundleStiltzkin said:
He's a career politician, nuff said on that..dnc said:
No shit man. It's called a punchline. Pretty sure everyone here understands he's not a commie, d2d notwithstanding.OZONE said:
Bernie is a Democratic Socialist, not a Communist.dnc said:
If Trump's the GOP candidate I'm voting libertarian again. Trump is unpredictable as hell, I don't trust him to follow through with anything he's saying, good or bad.OZONE said:...does this mean that you wingers that don't want single payer health care, and don't want your dads paying higher taxes... will become Hillary supporters?
Hillary is shady as fuck.
Bernies honest, but an honest commie is still a commie.
Fuck them all.
If you have to make up lies to make your point, you are doing nothing but exposing just how poor your point is.
I respect Bernie's integrity. I don't respect his policies.
