@creepycoug I hated math/science (my Pops was an engineer and math wiz with 1 semester of college, but got his education building landing strips in the South Pacific during WWII). When I got to grad school, (at age 24), I ate it up. There is no way I could have gone thru a math / science curriculum as an 18 year old...I wasn't mature enough to handle it.
I think a lot of kids run away from math around the time of middle school, because that's the time during which the serious kids hunker down and start doing the harder stuff, and incidentally that's the time when the public schools start offering different math tracks. So if you're like 75% of 13 to 15 year olds, you don't want to bust your ass doing hard math, so you leave it and, for most, never come back to it.
They have done studies that show that girls who mentally check out of math almost always do so in the 8th grade, and they never come back. Tragic. That has so much to do with caring about what boys think of them, not wanting to show them up in class, and dealing with asshole teachers. Private school has an edge here; because you're going to achieve some level of math curriculum or you're not graduating. There's no "math for _________" at a real college prep school. Public school is different.
The point of this is that there are a lot of people with innate talent for mathematics who, because of various life circumstances, aren't ready to be married to it at 12 or 13, and as soon as they make that decision, their fate is sealed. I would venture to say this happens to a whole bunch of people.
Its really interesting to me that the IT field is almost entirely dudes yet I believe the amount of women in the sciences hasn't actually changed. They just go into medicine.
I cant really think of any real reason it should be guys over girls in the tech stuff. Uncle Bob's talk on the future of programming was interesting because apparently until the mid to late 80s it was about 50 50
The number of women engineers and scientists is growing by leaps and bounds. As for programmers and other IT workers, there’s definitely a lag, but they’ll get there. Many of the lady IT people I know hail from Asia (India, China). I think US women will eventually catch up too, but it will be a little longer.
@creepycoug is right, I lost my love for math and comp sci freshman year of high school, for all the reasons he listed. (Remember, the internet was just getting off the ground at this point.) It wasn’t until my senior year that I took statistics that I got a teacher that was supportive and never spoke to me in a condescending manner. My senior project received the highest grade in the class. But by then the damage had been done and even though my SAT scores in math were high I had already told myself a STEM major wasn’t for me.
Yeah it's strange because in like a high school math class or something the girls did just as well or better than the boys. And yet it's entirely dominated by men.
I'm thinking it has to change. How can it not?
More focus needs to be done on those studies I mentioned. You have to get girls in middle school or they're gone for good. I don't know if they internalize the set backs more than the boys, but for whatever reason, once they make that decision in their minds they rarely recover.
Boys do much better fucking it up and then deciding to get back to it, pay the price to catch up, and get back on track in high school. Girls just don't. And they've really narrowed it down to that one year: 8th grade. Not 7th or 9th ... 8th grade. That's where we lose them.
I actually think the system that failed me is being slowly fixed now...I remember reading somewhere half of the degrees in science fields and engineering are being awarded to women (computer science is still way behind...I think it’s closer to 20% there). The next hurdle of getting these women hired, promoted, and retained is what needs to happen next.
Over and over, we see that these things are not helped with one simple change, like affirmative action or diversity programs aimed at clearing that first hurdle. It's a combination of things and, as I've learned raising 3 daughters, girls are different than boys. So you can't say, as maybe some of our friends in the Tug would, "Well, shit. The schools recruit them and give them an advantage in admissions, so what's the problem?" Well, the problem was never admissions. The problem is the messages girls get along the way, and if they manage to get there, the messages they continue to receive. We know it's not because they can't do the work. So you have to keep asking the question and finding solutions.
On the sports side, one of my girl's coaches used to say something to the effect that if you yell at them and try and coerce them into doing something, they'll do the minimum and they won't give you everything they've got. But if, after you've earned their trust, you ask them to do something for you, they'll run through a brick wall to get it done..
I think there may be something to that. But then again, that same kid's premier soccer coach was a Texas All American who was a ball buster, and my kid never played for anyone like she played for her. That includes college.
I have no answers, but I know it's not as simple as recruiting. It takes a multi-factor approach.
Agreed. It might shock you guys that one of the things I think is important is to get more women in the industry. Not out of social justice bullshit reasons it's just I think women are equally capable as men in office type jobs and I think the industry is full of dudes who cannot advance because they have no social skills.
Its like being in a frat for years with no parties. Its like dick measuring bullshit for no reason.
You make a really good point. I have worked with and for a lot of men who aren't worth a shit at their jobs, but have figured out how to play the club game. I know few women who have mastered that game, which does not favor them.
I’ve found that to be a huge barrier in my career. I’m trying to work on it. I’m also shit at negotiating / promoting *myself*, which is another thing lots of women struggle with. You have to be your own advocate.
My two female coworkers who are super smart and I could not be successful without has framed it as "only going for jobs/salaries she thinks she deserves, not ones she wants". While men go for what they want. I've had to push them and promote them and reframe so much of it as, look, so and so dumbass is at that level, you are definitely better than him/her, stop being afraid of going for it.
I actually see more confidence in this area in younger female hires... not sure what changed in the way women were treated or educated. The ones born in the early 90s have so much more work confidence than women born in the 70s.
The math stuff for women is interesting, I will have to watch my daughter, she has managed to keep pushing forward with math (now a 10th grader) but she didn't pick the hardest possible class for this year and as a result can only take AP Calc AB next year. She's targeting AP Statistics as a senior... I think she likes math and it is one of her better subjects but doesn't really show interest in STEM right now. She thinks she wants to be a sports writer or journalist. Sigh. Maybe she will become a technically gifted writer (she actually likes it so much right now that she started her own blog). I've at least been able to push the statistics on sports on her as proof she has to stay on the math path.
@creepycoug I hated math/science (my Pops was an engineer and math wiz with 1 semester of college, but got his education building landing strips in the South Pacific during WWII). When I got to grad school, (at age 24), I ate it up. There is no way I could have gone thru a math / science curriculum as an 18 year old...I wasn't mature enough to handle it.
I think a lot of kids run away from math around the time of middle school, because that's the time during which the serious kids hunker down and start doing the harder stuff, and incidentally that's the time when the public schools start offering different math tracks. So if you're like 75% of 13 to 15 year olds, you don't want to bust your ass doing hard math, so you leave it and, for most, never come back to it.
They have done studies that show that girls who mentally check out of math almost always do so in the 8th grade, and they never come back. Tragic. That has so much to do with caring about what boys think of them, not wanting to show them up in class, and dealing with asshole teachers. Private school has an edge here; because you're going to achieve some level of math curriculum or you're not graduating. There's no "math for _________" at a real college prep school. Public school is different.
The point of this is that there are a lot of people with innate talent for mathematics who, because of various life circumstances, aren't ready to be married to it at 12 or 13, and as soon as they make that decision, their fate is sealed. I would venture to say this happens to a whole bunch of people.
Its really interesting to me that the IT field is almost entirely dudes yet I believe the amount of women in the sciences hasn't actually changed. They just go into medicine.
I cant really think of any real reason it should be guys over girls in the tech stuff. Uncle Bob's talk on the future of programming was interesting because apparently until the mid to late 80s it was about 50 50
The number of women engineers and scientists is growing by leaps and bounds. As for programmers and other IT workers, there’s definitely a lag, but they’ll get there. Many of the lady IT people I know hail from Asia (India, China). I think US women will eventually catch up too, but it will be a little longer.
@creepycoug is right, I lost my love for math and comp sci freshman year of high school, for all the reasons he listed. (Remember, the internet was just getting off the ground at this point.) It wasn’t until my senior year that I took statistics that I got a teacher that was supportive and never spoke to me in a condescending manner. My senior project received the highest grade in the class. But by then the damage had been done and even though my SAT scores in math were high I had already told myself a STEM major wasn’t for me.
Yeah it's strange because in like a high school math class or something the girls did just as well or better than the boys. And yet it's entirely dominated by men.
I'm thinking it has to change. How can it not?
More focus needs to be done on those studies I mentioned. You have to get girls in middle school or they're gone for good. I don't know if they internalize the set backs more than the boys, but for whatever reason, once they make that decision in their minds they rarely recover.
Boys do much better fucking it up and then deciding to get back to it, pay the price to catch up, and get back on track in high school. Girls just don't. And they've really narrowed it down to that one year: 8th grade. Not 7th or 9th ... 8th grade. That's where we lose them.
I actually think the system that failed me is being slowly fixed now...I remember reading somewhere half of the degrees in science fields and engineering are being awarded to women (computer science is still way behind...I think it’s closer to 20% there). The next hurdle of getting these women hired, promoted, and retained is what needs to happen next.
Over and over, we see that these things are not helped with one simple change, like affirmative action or diversity programs aimed at clearing that first hurdle. It's a combination of things and, as I've learned raising 3 daughters, girls are different than boys. So you can't say, as maybe some of our friends in the Tug would, "Well, shit. The schools recruit them and give them an advantage in admissions, so what's the problem?" Well, the problem was never admissions. The problem is the messages girls get along the way, and if they manage to get there, the messages they continue to receive. We know it's not because they can't do the work. So you have to keep asking the question and finding solutions.
On the sports side, one of my girl's coaches used to say something to the effect that if you yell at them and try and coerce them into doing something, they'll do the minimum and they won't give you everything they've got. But if, after you've earned their trust, you ask them to do something for you, they'll run through a brick wall to get it done..
I think there may be something to that. But then again, that same kid's premier soccer coach was a Texas All American who was a ball buster, and my kid never played for anyone like she played for her. That includes college.
I have no answers, but I know it's not as simple as recruiting. It takes a multi-factor approach.
Agreed. It might shock you guys that one of the things I think is important is to get more women in the industry. Not out of social justice bullshit reasons it's just I think women are equally capable as men in office type jobs and I think the industry is full of dudes who cannot advance because they have no social skills.
Its like being in a frat for years with no parties. Its like dick measuring bullshit for no reason.
You make a really good point. I have worked with and for a lot of men who aren't worth a shit at their jobs, but have figured out how to play the club game. I know few women who have mastered that game, which does not favor them.
I’ve found that to be a huge barrier in my career. I’m trying to work on it. I’m also shit at negotiating / promoting *myself*, which is another thing lots of women struggle with. You have to be your own advocate.
You do. There is a subtle art to it. As with many things, it isn't a strength for me either. In women, I have found it to be more of black and white thing (generalizing massively here). Those who are bent on doing it often come off like it's over-the-top. But then again, would I perceive it that way if a man were doing exactly the same thing? I often think that Hilary gets a little of her shit because she's a woman ... said another way, would she we quite as despised if she were a man with the exact same behavior and personality? And then, there are those who just suffer in obscurity and work their asses off and are taken for granted.
It's quite a thing you're talking about here. It's real. I see it, and because I have girls, I pay attention to it and have tried to be empathetic and help where I can. My view is that if you can the work you should be treated accordingly.
Also, big of you to be aware of it, own it and work on it.
My unsolicited advice? Find a good mentor ... man or woman, who will champion you. If you have the resources, or if your company HR will pay for it, consider an executive coach. This will be a PhD in psychology who has organizational behavior expertise. Changed my life. Makes you see all kinds of things about yourself and you learn how others see you. Very important. PM me and I can give you a reference if you are interested. They're not cheap; but they're cheaper than lawyers.
The problem is that women who act like dudes are unattractive
@creepycoug I hated math/science (my Pops was an engineer and math wiz with 1 semester of college, but got his education building landing strips in the South Pacific during WWII). When I got to grad school, (at age 24), I ate it up. There is no way I could have gone thru a math / science curriculum as an 18 year old...I wasn't mature enough to handle it.
I think a lot of kids run away from math around the time of middle school, because that's the time during which the serious kids hunker down and start doing the harder stuff, and incidentally that's the time when the public schools start offering different math tracks. So if you're like 75% of 13 to 15 year olds, you don't want to bust your ass doing hard math, so you leave it and, for most, never come back to it.
They have done studies that show that girls who mentally check out of math almost always do so in the 8th grade, and they never come back. Tragic. That has so much to do with caring about what boys think of them, not wanting to show them up in class, and dealing with asshole teachers. Private school has an edge here; because you're going to achieve some level of math curriculum or you're not graduating. There's no "math for _________" at a real college prep school. Public school is different.
The point of this is that there are a lot of people with innate talent for mathematics who, because of various life circumstances, aren't ready to be married to it at 12 or 13, and as soon as they make that decision, their fate is sealed. I would venture to say this happens to a whole bunch of people.
Its really interesting to me that the IT field is almost entirely dudes yet I believe the amount of women in the sciences hasn't actually changed. They just go into medicine.
I cant really think of any real reason it should be guys over girls in the tech stuff. Uncle Bob's talk on the future of programming was interesting because apparently until the mid to late 80s it was about 50 50
The number of women engineers and scientists is growing by leaps and bounds. As for programmers and other IT workers, there’s definitely a lag, but they’ll get there. Many of the lady IT people I know hail from Asia (India, China). I think US women will eventually catch up too, but it will be a little longer.
@creepycoug is right, I lost my love for math and comp sci freshman year of high school, for all the reasons he listed. (Remember, the internet was just getting off the ground at this point.) It wasn’t until my senior year that I took statistics that I got a teacher that was supportive and never spoke to me in a condescending manner. My senior project received the highest grade in the class. But by then the damage had been done and even though my SAT scores in math were high I had already told myself a STEM major wasn’t for me.
Yeah it's strange because in like a high school math class or something the girls did just as well or better than the boys. And yet it's entirely dominated by men.
I'm thinking it has to change. How can it not?
More focus needs to be done on those studies I mentioned. You have to get girls in middle school or they're gone for good. I don't know if they internalize the set backs more than the boys, but for whatever reason, once they make that decision in their minds they rarely recover.
Boys do much better fucking it up and then deciding to get back to it, pay the price to catch up, and get back on track in high school. Girls just don't. And they've really narrowed it down to that one year: 8th grade. Not 7th or 9th ... 8th grade. That's where we lose them.
I actually think the system that failed me is being slowly fixed now...I remember reading somewhere half of the degrees in science fields and engineering are being awarded to women (computer science is still way behind...I think it’s closer to 20% there). The next hurdle of getting these women hired, promoted, and retained is what needs to happen next.
Over and over, we see that these things are not helped with one simple change, like affirmative action or diversity programs aimed at clearing that first hurdle. It's a combination of things and, as I've learned raising 3 daughters, girls are different than boys. So you can't say, as maybe some of our friends in the Tug would, "Well, shit. The schools recruit them and give them an advantage in admissions, so what's the problem?" Well, the problem was never admissions. The problem is the messages girls get along the way, and if they manage to get there, the messages they continue to receive. We know it's not because they can't do the work. So you have to keep asking the question and finding solutions.
On the sports side, one of my girl's coaches used to say something to the effect that if you yell at them and try and coerce them into doing something, they'll do the minimum and they won't give you everything they've got. But if, after you've earned their trust, you ask them to do something for you, they'll run through a brick wall to get it done..
I think there may be something to that. But then again, that same kid's premier soccer coach was a Texas All American who was a ball buster, and my kid never played for anyone like she played for her. That includes college.
I have no answers, but I know it's not as simple as recruiting. It takes a multi-factor approach.
If they don’t have daddy issues and stay off the pole. You deserve a medal sir
@creepycoug I hated math/science (my Pops was an engineer and math wiz with 1 semester of college, but got his education building landing strips in the South Pacific during WWII). When I got to grad school, (at age 24), I ate it up. There is no way I could have gone thru a math / science curriculum as an 18 year old...I wasn't mature enough to handle it.
I think a lot of kids run away from math around the time of middle school, because that's the time during which the serious kids hunker down and start doing the harder stuff, and incidentally that's the time when the public schools start offering different math tracks. So if you're like 75% of 13 to 15 year olds, you don't want to bust your ass doing hard math, so you leave it and, for most, never come back to it.
They have done studies that show that girls who mentally check out of math almost always do so in the 8th grade, and they never come back. Tragic. That has so much to do with caring about what boys think of them, not wanting to show them up in class, and dealing with asshole teachers. Private school has an edge here; because you're going to achieve some level of math curriculum or you're not graduating. There's no "math for _________" at a real college prep school. Public school is different.
The point of this is that there are a lot of people with innate talent for mathematics who, because of various life circumstances, aren't ready to be married to it at 12 or 13, and as soon as they make that decision, their fate is sealed. I would venture to say this happens to a whole bunch of people.
Its really interesting to me that the IT field is almost entirely dudes yet I believe the amount of women in the sciences hasn't actually changed. They just go into medicine.
I cant really think of any real reason it should be guys over girls in the tech stuff. Uncle Bob's talk on the future of programming was interesting because apparently until the mid to late 80s it was about 50 50
The number of women engineers and scientists is growing by leaps and bounds. As for programmers and other IT workers, there’s definitely a lag, but they’ll get there. Many of the lady IT people I know hail from Asia (India, China). I think US women will eventually catch up too, but it will be a little longer.
@creepycoug is right, I lost my love for math and comp sci freshman year of high school, for all the reasons he listed. (Remember, the internet was just getting off the ground at this point.) It wasn’t until my senior year that I took statistics that I got a teacher that was supportive and never spoke to me in a condescending manner. My senior project received the highest grade in the class. But by then the damage had been done and even though my SAT scores in math were high I had already told myself a STEM major wasn’t for me.
Yeah it's strange because in like a high school math class or something the girls did just as well or better than the boys. And yet it's entirely dominated by men.
I'm thinking it has to change. How can it not?
More focus needs to be done on those studies I mentioned. You have to get girls in middle school or they're gone for good. I don't know if they internalize the set backs more than the boys, but for whatever reason, once they make that decision in their minds they rarely recover.
Boys do much better fucking it up and then deciding to get back to it, pay the price to catch up, and get back on track in high school. Girls just don't. And they've really narrowed it down to that one year: 8th grade. Not 7th or 9th ... 8th grade. That's where we lose them.
I actually think the system that failed me is being slowly fixed now...I remember reading somewhere half of the degrees in science fields and engineering are being awarded to women (computer science is still way behind...I think it’s closer to 20% there). The next hurdle of getting these women hired, promoted, and retained is what needs to happen next.
Over and over, we see that these things are not helped with one simple change, like affirmative action or diversity programs aimed at clearing that first hurdle. It's a combination of things and, as I've learned raising 3 daughters, girls are different than boys. So you can't say, as maybe some of our friends in the Tug would, "Well, shit. The schools recruit them and give them an advantage in admissions, so what's the problem?" Well, the problem was never admissions. The problem is the messages girls get along the way, and if they manage to get there, the messages they continue to receive. We know it's not because they can't do the work. So you have to keep asking the question and finding solutions.
On the sports side, one of my girl's coaches used to say something to the effect that if you yell at them and try and coerce them into doing something, they'll do the minimum and they won't give you everything they've got. But if, after you've earned their trust, you ask them to do something for you, they'll run through a brick wall to get it done..
I think there may be something to that. But then again, that same kid's premier soccer coach was a Texas All American who was a ball buster, and my kid never played for anyone like she played for her. That includes college.
I have no answers, but I know it's not as simple as recruiting. It takes a multi-factor approach.
Agreed. It might shock you guys that one of the things I think is important is to get more women in the industry. Not out of social justice bullshit reasons it's just I think women are equally capable as men in office type jobs and I think the industry is full of dudes who cannot advance because they have no social skills.
Its like being in a frat for years with no parties. Its like dick measuring bullshit for no reason.
You make a really good point. I have worked with and for a lot of men who aren't worth a shit at their jobs, but have figured out how to play the club game. I know few women who have mastered that game, which does not favor them.
I’ve found that to be a huge barrier in my career. I’m trying to work on it. I’m also shit at negotiating / promoting *myself*, which is another thing lots of women struggle with. You have to be your own advocate.
You do. There is a subtle art to it. As with many things, it isn't a strength for me either. In women, I have found it to be more of black and white thing (generalizing massively here). Those who are bent on doing it often come off like it's over-the-top. But then again, would I perceive it that way if a man were doing exactly the same thing? I often think that Hilary gets a little of her shit because she's a woman ... said another way, would she we quite as despised if she were a man with the exact same behavior and personality? And then, there are those who just suffer in obscurity and work their asses off and are taken for granted.
It's quite a thing you're talking about here. It's real. I see it, and because I have girls, I pay attention to it and have tried to be empathetic and help where I can. My view is that if you can the work you should be treated accordingly.
Also, big of you to be aware of it, own it and work on it.
My unsolicited advice? Find a good mentor ... man or woman, who will champion you. If you have the resources, or if your company HR will pay for it, consider an executive coach. This will be a PhD in psychology who has organizational behavior expertise. Changed my life. Makes you see all kinds of things about yourself and you learn how others see you. Very important. PM me and I can give you a reference if you are interested. They're not cheap; but they're cheaper than lawyers.
The problem is that women who act like dudes are unattractive
@creepycoug I hated math/science (my Pops was an engineer and math wiz with 1 semester of college, but got his education building landing strips in the South Pacific during WWII). When I got to grad school, (at age 24), I ate it up. There is no way I could have gone thru a math / science curriculum as an 18 year old...I wasn't mature enough to handle it.
I think a lot of kids run away from math around the time of middle school, because that's the time during which the serious kids hunker down and start doing the harder stuff, and incidentally that's the time when the public schools start offering different math tracks. So if you're like 75% of 13 to 15 year olds, you don't want to bust your ass doing hard math, so you leave it and, for most, never come back to it.
They have done studies that show that girls who mentally check out of math almost always do so in the 8th grade, and they never come back. Tragic. That has so much to do with caring about what boys think of them, not wanting to show them up in class, and dealing with asshole teachers. Private school has an edge here; because you're going to achieve some level of math curriculum or you're not graduating. There's no "math for _________" at a real college prep school. Public school is different.
The point of this is that there are a lot of people with innate talent for mathematics who, because of various life circumstances, aren't ready to be married to it at 12 or 13, and as soon as they make that decision, their fate is sealed. I would venture to say this happens to a whole bunch of people.
Its really interesting to me that the IT field is almost entirely dudes yet I believe the amount of women in the sciences hasn't actually changed. They just go into medicine.
I cant really think of any real reason it should be guys over girls in the tech stuff. Uncle Bob's talk on the future of programming was interesting because apparently until the mid to late 80s it was about 50 50
The number of women engineers and scientists is growing by leaps and bounds. As for programmers and other IT workers, there’s definitely a lag, but they’ll get there. Many of the lady IT people I know hail from Asia (India, China). I think US women will eventually catch up too, but it will be a little longer.
@creepycoug is right, I lost my love for math and comp sci freshman year of high school, for all the reasons he listed. (Remember, the internet was just getting off the ground at this point.) It wasn’t until my senior year that I took statistics that I got a teacher that was supportive and never spoke to me in a condescending manner. My senior project received the highest grade in the class. But by then the damage had been done and even though my SAT scores in math were high I had already told myself a STEM major wasn’t for me.
Yeah it's strange because in like a high school math class or something the girls did just as well or better than the boys. And yet it's entirely dominated by men.
I'm thinking it has to change. How can it not?
More focus needs to be done on those studies I mentioned. You have to get girls in middle school or they're gone for good. I don't know if they internalize the set backs more than the boys, but for whatever reason, once they make that decision in their minds they rarely recover.
Boys do much better fucking it up and then deciding to get back to it, pay the price to catch up, and get back on track in high school. Girls just don't. And they've really narrowed it down to that one year: 8th grade. Not 7th or 9th ... 8th grade. That's where we lose them.
I actually think the system that failed me is being slowly fixed now...I remember reading somewhere half of the degrees in science fields and engineering are being awarded to women (computer science is still way behind...I think it’s closer to 20% there). The next hurdle of getting these women hired, promoted, and retained is what needs to happen next.
Over and over, we see that these things are not helped with one simple change, like affirmative action or diversity programs aimed at clearing that first hurdle. It's a combination of things and, as I've learned raising 3 daughters, girls are different than boys. So you can't say, as maybe some of our friends in the Tug would, "Well, shit. The schools recruit them and give them an advantage in admissions, so what's the problem?" Well, the problem was never admissions. The problem is the messages girls get along the way, and if they manage to get there, the messages they continue to receive. We know it's not because they can't do the work. So you have to keep asking the question and finding solutions.
On the sports side, one of my girl's coaches used to say something to the effect that if you yell at them and try and coerce them into doing something, they'll do the minimum and they won't give you everything they've got. But if, after you've earned their trust, you ask them to do something for you, they'll run through a brick wall to get it done..
I think there may be something to that. But then again, that same kid's premier soccer coach was a Texas All American who was a ball buster, and my kid never played for anyone like she played for her. That includes college.
I have no answers, but I know it's not as simple as recruiting. It takes a multi-factor approach.
Agreed. It might shock you guys that one of the things I think is important is to get more women in the industry. Not out of social justice bullshit reasons it's just I think women are equally capable as men in office type jobs and I think the industry is full of dudes who cannot advance because they have no social skills.
Its like being in a frat for years with no parties. Its like dick measuring bullshit for no reason.
You make a really good point. I have worked with and for a lot of men who aren't worth a shit at their jobs, but have figured out how to play the club game. I know few women who have mastered that game, which does not favor them.
I’ve found that to be a huge barrier in my career. I’m trying to work on it. I’m also shit at negotiating / promoting *myself*, which is another thing lots of women struggle with. You have to be your own advocate.
You do. There is a subtle art to it. As with many things, it isn't a strength for me either. In women, I have found it to be more of black and white thing (generalizing massively here). Those who are bent on doing it often come off like it's over-the-top. But then again, would I perceive it that way if a man were doing exactly the same thing? I often think that Hilary gets a little of her shit because she's a woman ... said another way, would she we quite as despised if she were a man with the exact same behavior and personality? And then, there are those who just suffer in obscurity and work their asses off and are taken for granted.
It's quite a thing you're talking about here. It's real. I see it, and because I have girls, I pay attention to it and have tried to be empathetic and help where I can. My view is that if you can the work you should be treated accordingly.
Also, big of you to be aware of it, own it and work on it.
My unsolicited advice? Find a good mentor ... man or woman, who will champion you. If you have the resources, or if your company HR will pay for it, consider an executive coach. This will be a PhD in psychology who has organizational behavior expertise. Changed my life. Makes you see all kinds of things about yourself and you learn how others see you. Very important. PM me and I can give you a reference if you are interested. They're not cheap; but they're cheaper than lawyers.
The problem is that women who act like dudes are unattractive
@creepycoug I hated math/science (my Pops was an engineer and math wiz with 1 semester of college, but got his education building landing strips in the South Pacific during WWII). When I got to grad school, (at age 24), I ate it up. There is no way I could have gone thru a math / science curriculum as an 18 year old...I wasn't mature enough to handle it.
I think a lot of kids run away from math around the time of middle school, because that's the time during which the serious kids hunker down and start doing the harder stuff, and incidentally that's the time when the public schools start offering different math tracks. So if you're like 75% of 13 to 15 year olds, you don't want to bust your ass doing hard math, so you leave it and, for most, never come back to it.
They have done studies that show that girls who mentally check out of math almost always do so in the 8th grade, and they never come back. Tragic. That has so much to do with caring about what boys think of them, not wanting to show them up in class, and dealing with asshole teachers. Private school has an edge here; because you're going to achieve some level of math curriculum or you're not graduating. There's no "math for _________" at a real college prep school. Public school is different.
The point of this is that there are a lot of people with innate talent for mathematics who, because of various life circumstances, aren't ready to be married to it at 12 or 13, and as soon as they make that decision, their fate is sealed. I would venture to say this happens to a whole bunch of people.
Its really interesting to me that the IT field is almost entirely dudes yet I believe the amount of women in the sciences hasn't actually changed. They just go into medicine.
I cant really think of any real reason it should be guys over girls in the tech stuff. Uncle Bob's talk on the future of programming was interesting because apparently until the mid to late 80s it was about 50 50
The number of women engineers and scientists is growing by leaps and bounds. As for programmers and other IT workers, there’s definitely a lag, but they’ll get there. Many of the lady IT people I know hail from Asia (India, China). I think US women will eventually catch up too, but it will be a little longer.
@creepycoug is right, I lost my love for math and comp sci freshman year of high school, for all the reasons he listed. (Remember, the internet was just getting off the ground at this point.) It wasn’t until my senior year that I took statistics that I got a teacher that was supportive and never spoke to me in a condescending manner. My senior project received the highest grade in the class. But by then the damage had been done and even though my SAT scores in math were high I had already told myself a STEM major wasn’t for me.
Yeah it's strange because in like a high school math class or something the girls did just as well or better than the boys. And yet it's entirely dominated by men.
I'm thinking it has to change. How can it not?
More focus needs to be done on those studies I mentioned. You have to get girls in middle school or they're gone for good. I don't know if they internalize the set backs more than the boys, but for whatever reason, once they make that decision in their minds they rarely recover.
Boys do much better fucking it up and then deciding to get back to it, pay the price to catch up, and get back on track in high school. Girls just don't. And they've really narrowed it down to that one year: 8th grade. Not 7th or 9th ... 8th grade. That's where we lose them.
I actually think the system that failed me is being slowly fixed now...I remember reading somewhere half of the degrees in science fields and engineering are being awarded to women (computer science is still way behind...I think it’s closer to 20% there). The next hurdle of getting these women hired, promoted, and retained is what needs to happen next.
Over and over, we see that these things are not helped with one simple change, like affirmative action or diversity programs aimed at clearing that first hurdle. It's a combination of things and, as I've learned raising 3 daughters, girls are different than boys. So you can't say, as maybe some of our friends in the Tug would, "Well, shit. The schools recruit them and give them an advantage in admissions, so what's the problem?" Well, the problem was never admissions. The problem is the messages girls get along the way, and if they manage to get there, the messages they continue to receive. We know it's not because they can't do the work. So you have to keep asking the question and finding solutions.
On the sports side, one of my girl's coaches used to say something to the effect that if you yell at them and try and coerce them into doing something, they'll do the minimum and they won't give you everything they've got. But if, after you've earned their trust, you ask them to do something for you, they'll run through a brick wall to get it done..
I think there may be something to that. But then again, that same kid's premier soccer coach was a Texas All American who was a ball buster, and my kid never played for anyone like she played for her. That includes college.
I have no answers, but I know it's not as simple as recruiting. It takes a multi-factor approach.
Agreed. It might shock you guys that one of the things I think is important is to get more women in the industry. Not out of social justice bullshit reasons it's just I think women are equally capable as men in office type jobs and I think the industry is full of dudes who cannot advance because they have no social skills.
Its like being in a frat for years with no parties. Its like dick measuring bullshit for no reason.
You make a really good point. I have worked with and for a lot of men who aren't worth a shit at their jobs, but have figured out how to play the club game. I know few women who have mastered that game, which does not favor them.
I’ve found that to be a huge barrier in my career. I’m trying to work on it. I’m also shit at negotiating / promoting *myself*, which is another thing lots of women struggle with. You have to be your own advocate.
You do. There is a subtle art to it. As with many things, it isn't a strength for me either. In women, I have found it to be more of black and white thing (generalizing massively here). Those who are bent on doing it often come off like it's over-the-top. But then again, would I perceive it that way if a man were doing exactly the same thing? I often think that Hilary gets a little of her shit because she's a woman ... said another way, would she we quite as despised if she were a man with the exact same behavior and personality? And then, there are those who just suffer in obscurity and work their asses off and are taken for granted.
It's quite a thing you're talking about here. It's real. I see it, and because I have girls, I pay attention to it and have tried to be empathetic and help where I can. My view is that if you can the work you should be treated accordingly.
Also, big of you to be aware of it, own it and work on it.
My unsolicited advice? Find a good mentor ... man or woman, who will champion you. If you have the resources, or if your company HR will pay for it, consider an executive coach. This will be a PhD in psychology who has organizational behavior expertise. Changed my life. Makes you see all kinds of things about yourself and you learn how others see you. Very important. PM me and I can give you a reference if you are interested. They're not cheap; but they're cheaper than lawyers.
The problem is that women who act like dudes are unattractive
You nailed it...Men who are demanding, intense, in-your-face, are considered “leaders”, women who do the same, even on smaller levels, are “bitches”...
@creepycoug I hated math/science (my Pops was an engineer and math wiz with 1 semester of college, but got his education building landing strips in the South Pacific during WWII). When I got to grad school, (at age 24), I ate it up. There is no way I could have gone thru a math / science curriculum as an 18 year old...I wasn't mature enough to handle it.
I think a lot of kids run away from math around the time of middle school, because that's the time during which the serious kids hunker down and start doing the harder stuff, and incidentally that's the time when the public schools start offering different math tracks. So if you're like 75% of 13 to 15 year olds, you don't want to bust your ass doing hard math, so you leave it and, for most, never come back to it.
They have done studies that show that girls who mentally check out of math almost always do so in the 8th grade, and they never come back. Tragic. That has so much to do with caring about what boys think of them, not wanting to show them up in class, and dealing with asshole teachers. Private school has an edge here; because you're going to achieve some level of math curriculum or you're not graduating. There's no "math for _________" at a real college prep school. Public school is different.
The point of this is that there are a lot of people with innate talent for mathematics who, because of various life circumstances, aren't ready to be married to it at 12 or 13, and as soon as they make that decision, their fate is sealed. I would venture to say this happens to a whole bunch of people.
Its really interesting to me that the IT field is almost entirely dudes yet I believe the amount of women in the sciences hasn't actually changed. They just go into medicine.
I cant really think of any real reason it should be guys over girls in the tech stuff. Uncle Bob's talk on the future of programming was interesting because apparently until the mid to late 80s it was about 50 50
The number of women engineers and scientists is growing by leaps and bounds. As for programmers and other IT workers, there’s definitely a lag, but they’ll get there. Many of the lady IT people I know hail from Asia (India, China). I think US women will eventually catch up too, but it will be a little longer.
@creepycoug is right, I lost my love for math and comp sci freshman year of high school, for all the reasons he listed. (Remember, the internet was just getting off the ground at this point.) It wasn’t until my senior year that I took statistics that I got a teacher that was supportive and never spoke to me in a condescending manner. My senior project received the highest grade in the class. But by then the damage had been done and even though my SAT scores in math were high I had already told myself a STEM major wasn’t for me.
Yeah it's strange because in like a high school math class or something the girls did just as well or better than the boys. And yet it's entirely dominated by men.
I'm thinking it has to change. How can it not?
More focus needs to be done on those studies I mentioned. You have to get girls in middle school or they're gone for good. I don't know if they internalize the set backs more than the boys, but for whatever reason, once they make that decision in their minds they rarely recover.
Boys do much better fucking it up and then deciding to get back to it, pay the price to catch up, and get back on track in high school. Girls just don't. And they've really narrowed it down to that one year: 8th grade. Not 7th or 9th ... 8th grade. That's where we lose them.
I actually think the system that failed me is being slowly fixed now...I remember reading somewhere half of the degrees in science fields and engineering are being awarded to women (computer science is still way behind...I think it’s closer to 20% there). The next hurdle of getting these women hired, promoted, and retained is what needs to happen next.
Over and over, we see that these things are not helped with one simple change, like affirmative action or diversity programs aimed at clearing that first hurdle. It's a combination of things and, as I've learned raising 3 daughters, girls are different than boys. So you can't say, as maybe some of our friends in the Tug would, "Well, shit. The schools recruit them and give them an advantage in admissions, so what's the problem?" Well, the problem was never admissions. The problem is the messages girls get along the way, and if they manage to get there, the messages they continue to receive. We know it's not because they can't do the work. So you have to keep asking the question and finding solutions.
On the sports side, one of my girl's coaches used to say something to the effect that if you yell at them and try and coerce them into doing something, they'll do the minimum and they won't give you everything they've got. But if, after you've earned their trust, you ask them to do something for you, they'll run through a brick wall to get it done..
I think there may be something to that. But then again, that same kid's premier soccer coach was a Texas All American who was a ball buster, and my kid never played for anyone like she played for her. That includes college.
I have no answers, but I know it's not as simple as recruiting. It takes a multi-factor approach.
Agreed. It might shock you guys that one of the things I think is important is to get more women in the industry. Not out of social justice bullshit reasons it's just I think women are equally capable as men in office type jobs and I think the industry is full of dudes who cannot advance because they have no social skills.
Its like being in a frat for years with no parties. Its like dick measuring bullshit for no reason.
You make a really good point. I have worked with and for a lot of men who aren't worth a shit at their jobs, but have figured out how to play the club game. I know few women who have mastered that game, which does not favor them.
I’ve found that to be a huge barrier in my career. I’m trying to work on it. I’m also shit at negotiating / promoting *myself*, which is another thing lots of women struggle with. You have to be your own advocate.
You do. There is a subtle art to it. As with many things, it isn't a strength for me either. In women, I have found it to be more of black and white thing (generalizing massively here). Those who are bent on doing it often come off like it's over-the-top. But then again, would I perceive it that way if a man were doing exactly the same thing? I often think that Hilary gets a little of her shit because she's a woman ... said another way, would she we quite as despised if she were a man with the exact same behavior and personality? And then, there are those who just suffer in obscurity and work their asses off and are taken for granted.
It's quite a thing you're talking about here. It's real. I see it, and because I have girls, I pay attention to it and have tried to be empathetic and help where I can. My view is that if you can the work you should be treated accordingly.
Also, big of you to be aware of it, own it and work on it.
My unsolicited advice? Find a good mentor ... man or woman, who will champion you. If you have the resources, or if your company HR will pay for it, consider an executive coach. This will be a PhD in psychology who has organizational behavior expertise. Changed my life. Makes you see all kinds of things about yourself and you learn how others see you. Very important. PM me and I can give you a reference if you are interested. They're not cheap; but they're cheaper than lawyers.
The problem is that women who act like dudes are unattractive
@creepycoug I hated math/science (my Pops was an engineer and math wiz with 1 semester of college, but got his education building landing strips in the South Pacific during WWII). When I got to grad school, (at age 24), I ate it up. There is no way I could have gone thru a math / science curriculum as an 18 year old...I wasn't mature enough to handle it.
I think a lot of kids run away from math around the time of middle school, because that's the time during which the serious kids hunker down and start doing the harder stuff, and incidentally that's the time when the public schools start offering different math tracks. So if you're like 75% of 13 to 15 year olds, you don't want to bust your ass doing hard math, so you leave it and, for most, never come back to it.
They have done studies that show that girls who mentally check out of math almost always do so in the 8th grade, and they never come back. Tragic. That has so much to do with caring about what boys think of them, not wanting to show them up in class, and dealing with asshole teachers. Private school has an edge here; because you're going to achieve some level of math curriculum or you're not graduating. There's no "math for _________" at a real college prep school. Public school is different.
The point of this is that there are a lot of people with innate talent for mathematics who, because of various life circumstances, aren't ready to be married to it at 12 or 13, and as soon as they make that decision, their fate is sealed. I would venture to say this happens to a whole bunch of people.
Its really interesting to me that the IT field is almost entirely dudes yet I believe the amount of women in the sciences hasn't actually changed. They just go into medicine.
I cant really think of any real reason it should be guys over girls in the tech stuff. Uncle Bob's talk on the future of programming was interesting because apparently until the mid to late 80s it was about 50 50
The number of women engineers and scientists is growing by leaps and bounds. As for programmers and other IT workers, there’s definitely a lag, but they’ll get there. Many of the lady IT people I know hail from Asia (India, China). I think US women will eventually catch up too, but it will be a little longer.
@creepycoug is right, I lost my love for math and comp sci freshman year of high school, for all the reasons he listed. (Remember, the internet was just getting off the ground at this point.) It wasn’t until my senior year that I took statistics that I got a teacher that was supportive and never spoke to me in a condescending manner. My senior project received the highest grade in the class. But by then the damage had been done and even though my SAT scores in math were high I had already told myself a STEM major wasn’t for me.
Yeah it's strange because in like a high school math class or something the girls did just as well or better than the boys. And yet it's entirely dominated by men.
I'm thinking it has to change. How can it not?
More focus needs to be done on those studies I mentioned. You have to get girls in middle school or they're gone for good. I don't know if they internalize the set backs more than the boys, but for whatever reason, once they make that decision in their minds they rarely recover.
Boys do much better fucking it up and then deciding to get back to it, pay the price to catch up, and get back on track in high school. Girls just don't. And they've really narrowed it down to that one year: 8th grade. Not 7th or 9th ... 8th grade. That's where we lose them.
I actually think the system that failed me is being slowly fixed now...I remember reading somewhere half of the degrees in science fields and engineering are being awarded to women (computer science is still way behind...I think it’s closer to 20% there). The next hurdle of getting these women hired, promoted, and retained is what needs to happen next.
Over and over, we see that these things are not helped with one simple change, like affirmative action or diversity programs aimed at clearing that first hurdle. It's a combination of things and, as I've learned raising 3 daughters, girls are different than boys. So you can't say, as maybe some of our friends in the Tug would, "Well, shit. The schools recruit them and give them an advantage in admissions, so what's the problem?" Well, the problem was never admissions. The problem is the messages girls get along the way, and if they manage to get there, the messages they continue to receive. We know it's not because they can't do the work. So you have to keep asking the question and finding solutions.
On the sports side, one of my girl's coaches used to say something to the effect that if you yell at them and try and coerce them into doing something, they'll do the minimum and they won't give you everything they've got. But if, after you've earned their trust, you ask them to do something for you, they'll run through a brick wall to get it done..
I think there may be something to that. But then again, that same kid's premier soccer coach was a Texas All American who was a ball buster, and my kid never played for anyone like she played for her. That includes college.
I have no answers, but I know it's not as simple as recruiting. It takes a multi-factor approach.
Agreed. It might shock you guys that one of the things I think is important is to get more women in the industry. Not out of social justice bullshit reasons it's just I think women are equally capable as men in office type jobs and I think the industry is full of dudes who cannot advance because they have no social skills.
Its like being in a frat for years with no parties. Its like dick measuring bullshit for no reason.
You make a really good point. I have worked with and for a lot of men who aren't worth a shit at their jobs, but have figured out how to play the club game. I know few women who have mastered that game, which does not favor them.
I’ve found that to be a huge barrier in my career. I’m trying to work on it. I’m also shit at negotiating / promoting *myself*, which is another thing lots of women struggle with. You have to be your own advocate.
You do. There is a subtle art to it. As with many things, it isn't a strength for me either. In women, I have found it to be more of black and white thing (generalizing massively here). Those who are bent on doing it often come off like it's over-the-top. But then again, would I perceive it that way if a man were doing exactly the same thing? I often think that Hilary gets a little of her shit because she's a woman ... said another way, would she we quite as despised if she were a man with the exact same behavior and personality? And then, there are those who just suffer in obscurity and work their asses off and are taken for granted.
It's quite a thing you're talking about here. It's real. I see it, and because I have girls, I pay attention to it and have tried to be empathetic and help where I can. My view is that if you can the work you should be treated accordingly.
Also, big of you to be aware of it, own it and work on it.
My unsolicited advice? Find a good mentor ... man or woman, who will champion you. If you have the resources, or if your company HR will pay for it, consider an executive coach. This will be a PhD in psychology who has organizational behavior expertise. Changed my life. Makes you see all kinds of things about yourself and you learn how others see you. Very important. PM me and I can give you a reference if you are interested. They're not cheap; but they're cheaper than lawyers.
The problem is that women who act like dudes are unattractive
You nailed it...Men who are demanding, intense, in-your-face, are considered “leaders”, women who do the same, even on smaller levels, are “bitches”...
Well yeah. Its very off putting and unfeminine. Feminine chicks are attractive.
But no I think most of those guys are just considered annoying.
@creepycoug I hated math/science (my Pops was an engineer and math wiz with 1 semester of college, but got his education building landing strips in the South Pacific during WWII). When I got to grad school, (at age 24), I ate it up. There is no way I could have gone thru a math / science curriculum as an 18 year old...I wasn't mature enough to handle it.
I think a lot of kids run away from math around the time of middle school, because that's the time during which the serious kids hunker down and start doing the harder stuff, and incidentally that's the time when the public schools start offering different math tracks. So if you're like 75% of 13 to 15 year olds, you don't want to bust your ass doing hard math, so you leave it and, for most, never come back to it.
They have done studies that show that girls who mentally check out of math almost always do so in the 8th grade, and they never come back. Tragic. That has so much to do with caring about what boys think of them, not wanting to show them up in class, and dealing with asshole teachers. Private school has an edge here; because you're going to achieve some level of math curriculum or you're not graduating. There's no "math for _________" at a real college prep school. Public school is different.
The point of this is that there are a lot of people with innate talent for mathematics who, because of various life circumstances, aren't ready to be married to it at 12 or 13, and as soon as they make that decision, their fate is sealed. I would venture to say this happens to a whole bunch of people.
Its really interesting to me that the IT field is almost entirely dudes yet I believe the amount of women in the sciences hasn't actually changed. They just go into medicine.
I cant really think of any real reason it should be guys over girls in the tech stuff. Uncle Bob's talk on the future of programming was interesting because apparently until the mid to late 80s it was about 50 50
The number of women engineers and scientists is growing by leaps and bounds. As for programmers and other IT workers, there’s definitely a lag, but they’ll get there. Many of the lady IT people I know hail from Asia (India, China). I think US women will eventually catch up too, but it will be a little longer.
@creepycoug is right, I lost my love for math and comp sci freshman year of high school, for all the reasons he listed. (Remember, the internet was just getting off the ground at this point.) It wasn’t until my senior year that I took statistics that I got a teacher that was supportive and never spoke to me in a condescending manner. My senior project received the highest grade in the class. But by then the damage had been done and even though my SAT scores in math were high I had already told myself a STEM major wasn’t for me.
Yeah it's strange because in like a high school math class or something the girls did just as well or better than the boys. And yet it's entirely dominated by men.
I'm thinking it has to change. How can it not?
More focus needs to be done on those studies I mentioned. You have to get girls in middle school or they're gone for good. I don't know if they internalize the set backs more than the boys, but for whatever reason, once they make that decision in their minds they rarely recover.
Boys do much better fucking it up and then deciding to get back to it, pay the price to catch up, and get back on track in high school. Girls just don't. And they've really narrowed it down to that one year: 8th grade. Not 7th or 9th ... 8th grade. That's where we lose them.
I actually think the system that failed me is being slowly fixed now...I remember reading somewhere half of the degrees in science fields and engineering are being awarded to women (computer science is still way behind...I think it’s closer to 20% there). The next hurdle of getting these women hired, promoted, and retained is what needs to happen next.
Over and over, we see that these things are not helped with one simple change, like affirmative action or diversity programs aimed at clearing that first hurdle. It's a combination of things and, as I've learned raising 3 daughters, girls are different than boys. So you can't say, as maybe some of our friends in the Tug would, "Well, shit. The schools recruit them and give them an advantage in admissions, so what's the problem?" Well, the problem was never admissions. The problem is the messages girls get along the way, and if they manage to get there, the messages they continue to receive. We know it's not because they can't do the work. So you have to keep asking the question and finding solutions.
On the sports side, one of my girl's coaches used to say something to the effect that if you yell at them and try and coerce them into doing something, they'll do the minimum and they won't give you everything they've got. But if, after you've earned their trust, you ask them to do something for you, they'll run through a brick wall to get it done..
I think there may be something to that. But then again, that same kid's premier soccer coach was a Texas All American who was a ball buster, and my kid never played for anyone like she played for her. That includes college.
I have no answers, but I know it's not as simple as recruiting. It takes a multi-factor approach.
Agreed. It might shock you guys that one of the things I think is important is to get more women in the industry. Not out of social justice bullshit reasons it's just I think women are equally capable as men in office type jobs and I think the industry is full of dudes who cannot advance because they have no social skills.
Its like being in a frat for years with no parties. Its like dick measuring bullshit for no reason.
You make a really good point. I have worked with and for a lot of men who aren't worth a shit at their jobs, but have figured out how to play the club game. I know few women who have mastered that game, which does not favor them.
I’ve found that to be a huge barrier in my career. I’m trying to work on it. I’m also shit at negotiating / promoting *myself*, which is another thing lots of women struggle with. You have to be your own advocate.
You do. There is a subtle art to it. As with many things, it isn't a strength for me either. In women, I have found it to be more of black and white thing (generalizing massively here). Those who are bent on doing it often come off like it's over-the-top. But then again, would I perceive it that way if a man were doing exactly the same thing? I often think that Hilary gets a little of her shit because she's a woman ... said another way, would she we quite as despised if she were a man with the exact same behavior and personality? And then, there are those who just suffer in obscurity and work their asses off and are taken for granted.
It's quite a thing you're talking about here. It's real. I see it, and because I have girls, I pay attention to it and have tried to be empathetic and help where I can. My view is that if you can the work you should be treated accordingly.
Also, big of you to be aware of it, own it and work on it.
My unsolicited advice? Find a good mentor ... man or woman, who will champion you. If you have the resources, or if your company HR will pay for it, consider an executive coach. This will be a PhD in psychology who has organizational behavior expertise. Changed my life. Makes you see all kinds of things about yourself and you learn how others see you. Very important. PM me and I can give you a reference if you are interested. They're not cheap; but they're cheaper than lawyers.
The problem is that women who act like dudes are unattractive
You nailed it...Men who are demanding, intense, in-your-face, are considered “leaders”, women who do the same, even on smaller levels, are “bitches”...
Well yeah. Its very off putting and unfeminine. Feminine chicks are attractive.
But no I think most of those guys are just considered annoying.
Wimpy, submissive chicks suck. Gotta ride the lightning man.
Is Willamtte any good academically? I tend to be anti private school unless it’s elite enough to merit the cost.
I sent two to public schools and one to Willamette. My bias is public as well, but I ended up being pretty impressed with Willamette. (Some of my best friends went to Whitman, but honestly, that school felt like a cult to me as a touring parent.)
Is Willamtte any good academically? I tend to be anti private school unless it’s elite enough to merit the cost.
I sent two to public schools and one to Willamette. My bias is public as well, but I ended up being pretty impressed with Willamette. (Some of my best friends went to Whitman, but honestly, that school felt like a cult to me as a touring parent.)
Whitman is definitely its own center of gravity and the kids who go there are of a type. Willamette, I would expect, is going to have a bit more of a well rounded student body. The kids at Whitman will show a lot of intellectualism and also a lot of quirky. My youngest was recruited there for soccer, and it was one of the early schools so we showed enthusiasm, but as other coaches started expressing interest it was easier for us to see the things that made it not a great fit for her.
I enjoy hearing about all this stuff. I had super good grades and people were a bit confused I didn't try to get in to top schools. But I got paid to go to school, no debt, raged hard, and started making pretty good money right out of school so I don't really regret it.
Thing was I didn't really know what I wanted to do so I figured it was wise to have no debt and then figure it out from there.
Luckily I found my passion so I feel pretty good about the future but if I could do it all over again I would have tried to get into a top school for engineering.
That just wasn't even on my radar back then though.
I think doing some high level sales is good for everyone in that you get to get some pretty good insight into business at an earlier age and you aren't super intimidated by owners and higher level people.
Course then I lost all my money going out on my own but I learned some shit and it's pretty easy to spin in an interview lol.
I enjoy hearing about all this stuff. I had super good grades and people were a bit confused I didn't try to get in to top schools. But I got paid to go to school, no debt, raged hard, and started making pretty good money right out of school so I don't really regret it.
Thing was I didn't really know what I wanted to do so I figured it was wise to have no debt and then figure it out from there.
Luckily I found my passion so I feel pretty good about the future but if I could do it all over again I would have tried to get into a top school for engineering.
That just wasn't even on my radar back then though.
I think doing some high level sales is good for everyone in that you get to get some pretty good insight into business at an earlier age and you aren't super intimidated by owners and higher level people.
Course then I lost all my money going out on my own but I learned some shit and it's pretty easy to spin in an interview lol.
That's good perspective. Your undergrad really stops mattering after a short period of time. Also, I'm not convinced that there is that much of a difference in any event. Sure, if you're at MIT you're going to notice everybody is really fucking quant. If you're at Boston College, are you really going to notice a huge difference between those kids and the kids at Penn State? ASU? Florida State?
I enjoy hearing about all this stuff. I had super good grades and people were a bit confused I didn't try to get in to top schools. But I got paid to go to school, no debt, raged hard, and started making pretty good money right out of school so I don't really regret it.
Thing was I didn't really know what I wanted to do so I figured it was wise to have no debt and then figure it out from there.
Luckily I found my passion so I feel pretty good about the future but if I could do it all over again I would have tried to get into a top school for engineering.
That just wasn't even on my radar back then though.
I think doing some high level sales is good for everyone in that you get to get some pretty good insight into business at an earlier age and you aren't super intimidated by owners and higher level people.
Course then I lost all my money going out on my own but I learned some shit and it's pretty easy to spin in an interview lol.
Nice thing about sales. You learn early what it's all about. You don't need to go through climbing the ladder trying to master the glad handing and politics. Sales is refreshingly simple: you produce, we love you. You don't, we don't, no matter how good you are at the game.
@creepycoug how do I keep my sons from becoming lowly quooks or boovs?
@YellowSnow Well I have some advice ~ the same advice that my dad gave me when I was about 13.
If you like it, have fun with this, you are just the guy to deliver this kind of message. Your kids might even eventually believe you. They will certainly remember that you believed in them enough to say it. Kiss.
Here is what he said, don't exactly remember how it came up but i was being bushwacked with a time released capsule of information that i would not understand until later ~ which was the style that both of my parents employed frequently throughout my childhood. I was repeatedly abused in exactly that fashion.
His words were, if you want to be successful in life all that you have to do is to be the very best at what you do.
My response was thank you so much dad... jeasze sounds simple enough. [I was thinking WTF? why tell me that its impossible to really be successful? Doesn't he realize how competitive jr high is much less life in general?]
This was a bear trap. He continued unruffled by my lack of immediate inspiration.
He proceeded to say: I don't mean be good at what you do, i mean be the very best. He emphasizes: Be number 1. And he says, there is a difference. What it takes to be number one is much different than what it takes to be "good at what you do". Remember that he says.
I'm thinking great, more fucking awesome advice. Yow.
So he continues: I will tell you what this means... don't waste your time on stuff that you are moderately interested in.
Don't try to be good at stuff that you don't care about unless it is for amusement purposes. Identify your best skills and interests and build on exactly those those skills and experiences.
Assuming that you actually have the ethic and intention to only focus on what you are really interested in and build on the skills that you are really good at; and that you never [fucking] quit; and that you continue to work at it with all of your power until you are long since the last man standing ~ you actually will be the best at what you do.
He finishes with: everyone will have quit long before you, and the simple part is that if you are the best at what you are do ~ there is simply no competition, and your life turns into what you dream of.
There is one more aspect to this which is very important: concentrate your efforts on blue water adventures: Do things that have never been done before.
@creepycoug how do I keep my sons from becoming lowly quooks or boovs?
@YellowSnow Well I have some advice ~ the same advice that my dad gave me when I was about 13.
If you like it, have fun with this, you are just the guy to deliver this kind of message. Your kids might even eventually believe you. They will certainly remember that you believed in them enough to say it. Kiss.
Here is what he said, don't exactly remember how it came up but i was being bushwacked with a time released capsule of information that i would not understand until later ~ which was the style that both of my parents employed frequently throughout my childhood. I was repeatedly abused in exactly that fashion.
His words were, if you want to be successful in life all that you have to do is to be the very best at what you do.
My response was thank you so much dad... jeasze sounds simple enough. [I was thinking WTF? why tell me that its impossible to really be successful? Doesn't he realize how competitive jr high is much less life in general?]
This was a bear trap. He continued unruffled by my lack of immediate inspiration.
He proceeded to say: I don't mean be good at what you do, i mean be the very best. He emphasizes: Be number 1. And he says, there is a difference. What it takes to be number one is much different than what it takes to be "good at what you do". Remember that he says.
I'm thinking great, more fucking awesome advice. Yow.
So he continues: I will tell you what this means... don't waste your time on stuff that you are moderately interested in.
Don't try to be good at stuff that you don't care about unless it is for amusement purposes. Identify your best skills and interests and build on exactly those those skills and experiences.
Assuming that you actually have the ethic and intention to only focus on what you are really interested in and build on the skills that you are really good at; and that you never [fucking] quit; and that you continue to work at it with all of your power until you are long since the last man standing ~ you actually will be the best at what you do.
He finishes with: everyone will have quit long before you, and the simple part is that if you are the best at what you are do ~ there is simply no competition, and your life turns into what you dream of.
There is one more aspect to this which is very important: concentrate your efforts on blue water adventures: Do things that have never been done before.
Sage advice, but.a tall order. I wonder ... how many of us actually did this? Did you?
I actually did take his advice over time without really realizing it and had good success. And yes, i did achieved number 1 status.
That isn't what is really important however, what is important is the mind set of how to be a winner ~ that means developing the killer desire to achieve, and that means the effort of continuing on when all others have quit and or failed ~ and then that is the beginning of continuing on until you have become the best.
Row boy is going to understand that which is why I added this response to his question.
Comments
I actually see more confidence in this area in younger female hires... not sure what changed in the way women were treated or educated. The ones born in the early 90s have so much more work confidence than women born in the 70s.
But no I think most of those guys are just considered annoying.
Thing was I didn't really know what I wanted to do so I figured it was wise to have no debt and then figure it out from there.
Luckily I found my passion so I feel pretty good about the future but if I could do it all over again I would have tried to get into a top school for engineering.
That just wasn't even on my radar back then though.
I think doing some high level sales is good for everyone in that you get to get some pretty good insight into business at an earlier age and you aren't super intimidated by owners and higher level people.
Course then I lost all my money going out on my own but I learned some shit and it's pretty easy to spin in an interview lol.
Probably not.
If you like it, have fun with this, you are just the guy to deliver this kind of message. Your kids might even eventually believe you. They will certainly remember that you believed in them enough to say it. Kiss.
Here is what he said, don't exactly remember how it came up but i was being bushwacked with a time released capsule of information that i would not understand until later ~ which was the style that both of my parents employed frequently throughout my childhood. I was repeatedly abused in exactly that fashion.
His words were, if you want to be successful in life all that you have to do is to be the very best at what you do.
My response was thank you so much dad... jeasze sounds simple enough. [I was thinking WTF? why tell me that its impossible to really be successful? Doesn't he realize how competitive jr high is much less life in general?]
This was a bear trap. He continued unruffled by my lack of immediate inspiration.
He proceeded to say: I don't mean be good at what you do, i mean be the very best. He emphasizes: Be number 1. And he says, there is a difference. What it takes to be number one is much different than what it takes to be "good at what you do". Remember that he says.
I'm thinking great, more fucking awesome advice. Yow.
So he continues: I will tell you what this means... don't waste your time on stuff that you are moderately interested in.
Don't try to be good at stuff that you don't care about unless it is for amusement purposes. Identify your best skills and interests and build on exactly those those skills and experiences.
Assuming that you actually have the ethic and intention to only focus on what you are really interested in and build on the skills that you are really good at; and that you never [fucking] quit; and that you continue to work at it with all of your power until you are long since the last man standing ~ you actually will be the best at what you do.
He finishes with: everyone will have quit long before you, and the simple part is that if you are the best at what you are do ~ there is simply no competition, and your life turns into what you dream of.
There is one more aspect to this which is very important: concentrate your efforts on blue water adventures: Do things that have never been done before.
That isn't what is really important however, what is important is the mind set of how to be a winner ~ that means developing the killer desire to achieve, and that means the effort of continuing on when all others have quit and or failed ~ and then that is the beginning of continuing on until you have become the best.
Row boy is going to understand that which is why I added this response to his question.