I keep coming back to this thread for Silmaril hot talk and am continually let down.
Did the Arkenstone have properties similar to the Simirils that evokes strong greed?
OR
Is the gold lust unique to dwarves?
I would argue that the arkenstone in the books displays almost no magical will at all and that gold lust isn't even really a thing specifically for dwarves.
The movies obviously dive into things such as Throin's dragon sickness and the gold lust and greed of the dwarves especially when around the arkenstone but the books actually focus a lot more on the uncorruptibility of the dwarves will.
In the books Thorin's quest is much more about the recapture of his homeland and his obsession with the cultural heritage of the dwarves. Remember the only reason Biblo was even along for the ride was an a bugler, not to steal a mountains worth of gold but instead steal back a few select important items related to the kingdom and its history, the arkenstone being one. The predominate theme/trope throughout the book is the dwarves, who are basically dwarf racial supremacists, learning that they may need the help of a hobbit, wood elves, lake people to achieve their ends. This trope culminates in the final battle of the five armies.
To demonstrate this, look no futher that how incorruptible the dwarves will is even the power of the rings which struggle to enslave and control them; "The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it."
So yes the rings could enflame their greed, but only on a limited scope and scale. I dont believe that the arkenstone, which is mostly described as a wonderous and fantastical artifact, nowhere nearly as magically powerful or dangerous as the rings, could have the same effect.
As a quick aside I think if the arkenstone could invoke such an evil lust on par with the rings in the dwarves Gandalf may have been much more hesitant to help with the journey in the first place as well.
In the end I think its safe to say that dwarves may naturally have a predisposition or weakness towards greed but its not a behavior overtly present by simply being around gold/wealth any more so than any other race.
Perhaps another good question for @ThomasFremont and @Mad_Son is does the dragons power come from their gold hoards itself, or more pointedly, does gold carry a Morgothian element of dark magic that is both corrupting to the races and empowering towards evil like dragons. If Dragons can become empowered by their gold horde, could the dragon-sickness experience actually be a soft/passive corruption emitting from a dragon empowered with a particularly valuable horde of gold?
I keep coming back to this thread for Silmaril hot talk and am continually let down.
Did the Arkenstone have properties similar to the Simirils that evokes strong greed?
OR
Is the gold lust unique to dwarves?
I would argue that the arkenstone in the books displays almost no magical will at all and that gold lust isn't even really a thing specifically for dwarves.
The movies obviously dive into things such as Throin's dragon sickness and the gold lust and greed of the dwarves especially when around the arkenstone but the books actually focus a lot more on the uncorruptibility of the dwarves will.
In the books Thorin's quest is much more about the recapture of his homeland and his obsession with the cultural heritage of the dwarves. Remember the only reason Biblo was even along for the ride was an a bugler, not to steal a mountains worth of gold but instead steal back a few select important items related to the kingdom and its history, the arkenstone being one. The predominate theme/trope throughout the book is the dwarves, who are basically dwarf racial supremacists, learning that they may need the help of a hobbit, wood elves, lake people to achieve their ends. This trope culminates in the final battle of the five armies.
To demonstrate this, look no futher that how incorruptible the dwarves will is even the power of the rings which struggle to enslave and control them; "The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it."
So yes the rings could enflame their greed, but only on a limited scope and scale. I dont believe that the arkenstone, which is mostly described as a wonderous and fantastical artifact, nowhere nearly as magically powerful or dangerous as the rings, could have the same effect.
As a quick aside I think if the arkenstone could invoke such an evil lust on par with the rings in the dwarves Gandalf may have been much more hesitant to help with the journey in the first place as well.
In the end I think its safe to say that dwarves may naturally have a predisposition or weakness towards greed but its not a behavior overtly present by simply being around gold/wealth any more so than any other race.
Perhaps another good question for @ThomasFremont and @Mad_Son is does the dragons power come from their gold hoards itself, or more pointedly, does gold carry a Morgothian element of dark magic that is both corrupting to the races and empowering towards evil like dragons. If Dragons can become empowered by their gold horde, could the dragon-sickness experience actually be a soft/passive corruption emitting from a dragon empowered with a particularly valuable horde of gold?
I keep coming back to this thread for Silmaril hot talk and am continually let down.
Did the Arkenstone have properties similar to the Simirils that evokes strong greed?
OR
Is the gold lust unique to dwarves?
I would argue that the arkenstone in the books displays almost no magical will at all and that gold lust isn't even really a thing specifically for dwarves.
The movies obviously dive into things such as Throin's dragon sickness and the gold lust and greed of the dwarves especially when around the arkenstone but the books actually focus a lot more on the uncorruptibility of the dwarves will.
In the books Thorin's quest is much more about the recapture of his homeland and his obsession with the cultural heritage of the dwarves. Remember the only reason Biblo was even along for the ride was an a bugler, not to steal a mountains worth of gold but instead steal back a few select important items related to the kingdom and its history, the arkenstone being one. The predominate theme/trope throughout the book is the dwarves, who are basically dwarf racial supremacists, learning that they may need the help of a hobbit, wood elves, lake people to achieve their ends. This trope culminates in the final battle of the five armies.
To demonstrate this, look no futher that how incorruptible the dwarves will is even the power of the rings which struggle to enslave and control them; "The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it."
So yes the rings could enflame their greed, but only on a limited scope and scale. I dont believe that the arkenstone, which is mostly described as a wonderous and fantastical artifact, nowhere nearly as magically powerful or dangerous as the rings, could have the same effect.
As a quick aside I think if the arkenstone could invoke such an evil lust on par with the rings in the dwarves Gandalf may have been much more hesitant to help with the journey in the first place as well.
In the end I think its safe to say that dwarves may naturally have a predisposition or weakness towards greed but its not a behavior overtly present by simply being around gold/wealth any more so than any other race.
Perhaps another good question for @ThomasFremont and @Mad_Son is does the dragons power come from their gold hoards itself, or more pointedly, does gold carry a Morgothian element of dark magic that is both corrupting to the races and empowering towards evil like dragons. If Dragons can become empowered by their gold horde, could the dragon-sickness experience actually be a soft/passive corruption emitting from a dragon empowered with a particularly valuable horde of gold?
thanks for reading and being a supporter
Don’t be afraid to just jump right into the discussion next time
I keep coming back to this thread for Silmaril hot talk and am continually let down.
Did the Arkenstone have properties similar to the Simirils that evokes strong greed?
OR
Is the gold lust unique to dwarves?
I would argue that the arkenstone in the books displays almost no magical will at all and that gold lust isn't even really a thing specifically for dwarves.
The movies obviously dive into things such as Throin's dragon sickness and the gold lust and greed of the dwarves especially when around the arkenstone but the books actually focus a lot more on the uncorruptibility of the dwarves will.
In the books Thorin's quest is much more about the recapture of his homeland and his obsession with the cultural heritage of the dwarves. Remember the only reason Biblo was even along for the ride was an a bugler, not to steal a mountains worth of gold but instead steal back a few select important items related to the kingdom and its history, the arkenstone being one. The predominate theme/trope throughout the book is the dwarves, who are basically dwarf racial supremacists, learning that they may need the help of a hobbit, wood elves, lake people to achieve their ends. This trope culminates in the final battle of the five armies.
To demonstrate this, look no futher that how incorruptible the dwarves will is even the power of the rings which struggle to enslave and control them; "The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it."
So yes the rings could enflame their greed, but only on a limited scope and scale. I dont believe that the arkenstone, which is mostly described as a wonderous and fantastical artifact, nowhere nearly as magically powerful or dangerous as the rings, could have the same effect.
As a quick aside I think if the arkenstone could invoke such an evil lust on par with the rings in the dwarves Gandalf may have been much more hesitant to help with the journey in the first place as well.
In the end I think its safe to say that dwarves may naturally have a predisposition or weakness towards greed but its not a behavior overtly present by simply being around gold/wealth any more so than any other race.
Perhaps another good question for @ThomasFremont and @Mad_Son is does the dragons power come from their gold hoards itself, or more pointedly, does gold carry a Morgothian element of dark magic that is both corrupting to the races and empowering towards evil like dragons. If Dragons can become empowered by their gold horde, could the dragon-sickness experience actually be a soft/passive corruption emitting from a dragon empowered with a particularly valuable horde of gold?
thanks for reading and being a supporter
Don’t be afraid to just jump right into the discussion next time
What the fuck?! Why was I was told to lurk a bit and get a feel for this place, and PM @TolkienDawg22 if I needed help getting my Silmarillion reads down first??
I keep coming back to this thread for Silmaril hot talk and am continually let down.
Did the Arkenstone have properties similar to the Simirils that evokes strong greed?
OR
Is the gold lust unique to dwarves?
I would argue that the arkenstone in the books displays almost no magical will at all and that gold lust isn't even really a thing specifically for dwarves.
The movies obviously dive into things such as Throin's dragon sickness and the gold lust and greed of the dwarves especially when around the arkenstone but the books actually focus a lot more on the uncorruptibility of the dwarves will.
In the books Thorin's quest is much more about the recapture of his homeland and his obsession with the cultural heritage of the dwarves. Remember the only reason Biblo was even along for the ride was an a bugler, not to steal a mountains worth of gold but instead steal back a few select important items related to the kingdom and its history, the arkenstone being one. The predominate theme/trope throughout the book is the dwarves, who are basically dwarf racial supremacists, learning that they may need the help of a hobbit, wood elves, lake people to achieve their ends. This trope culminates in the final battle of the five armies.
To demonstrate this, look no futher that how incorruptible the dwarves will is even the power of the rings which struggle to enslave and control them; "The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it."
So yes the rings could enflame their greed, but only on a limited scope and scale. I dont believe that the arkenstone, which is mostly described as a wonderous and fantastical artifact, nowhere nearly as magically powerful or dangerous as the rings, could have the same effect.
As a quick aside I think if the arkenstone could invoke such an evil lust on par with the rings in the dwarves Gandalf may have been much more hesitant to help with the journey in the first place as well.
In the end I think its safe to say that dwarves may naturally have a predisposition or weakness towards greed but its not a behavior overtly present by simply being around gold/wealth any more so than any other race.
Perhaps another good question for @ThomasFremont and @Mad_Son is does the dragons power come from their gold hoards itself, or more pointedly, does gold carry a Morgothian element of dark magic that is both corrupting to the races and empowering towards evil like dragons. If Dragons can become empowered by their gold horde, could the dragon-sickness experience actually be a soft/passive corruption emitting from a dragon empowered with a particularly valuable horde of gold?
One important thing to keep in mind is who made these objects of power.
The Simirils were made by Feanor of the Noldor, of the light of Valar. The oldest and greatest of the elven tribes.
While the rings carry a great deal of power, they were crafted by Sauron. Though he is the big bad of the Third age, he is a servant compared to Morgoth, his master in the previous age and the original dark lord. He is of a lower order of divine beings as set forth by Tolkien in the Silmarilion.
The rings are of a lower starting power as a result. Even if Sauron put all of his essence into the One ring, it would be diminished in comparison to the Light of Valar and the craftsmanship of Feanor.
Since we do not know many details of the Arkenstone (other than being able to reasonably surmise that it is almost certainly not a Simiril), we cant fully state its power level or origin.
In the Hobbit, the Arkenstone clearly has a corrupting influence on Thorin Oakenshield. Even when Ereabor is secured and Smaug is dead, he cannot be satisfied until he has it. He goes so far as to threaten Bilbo, and nearly kills him over it.
Perhaps this is the corruption of the dragon gold all around them. But his single mindedness about the stone predates contact with the Lonely Mountain. The other dwarves seem reluctant but duty bound to obey Thorin, even in his madness. None challenge him over his choices, despite his dishonorable words.
My thought is that the dragon essenced gold is what twists his mind.
Even when offered the Arkenstone for the return of the gold of Dale and aid for LakeTown, he refuses. The symbol that meant everything at the beginning is now not worth a small fraction of his massive store of gold?
Perhaps he was being cunning and biding his time to when Dain would soon arrive with reinforcements to alter the terms. He also had no way of knowing a full blown attack was about to happen. But the way he suddenly cast aside the priceless symbol of his fathers throne in favor of greed is the work of darkness. Bilbo makes many comments about the dragon smell and bad feelings the Mountain gave him. Smaug’s evil definitely lingers. Only through the purifying glory of battle does Thorin redeem himself and live long enough to issue his apology to those that aided his folk in reclaiming their ancestral home.
I keep coming back to this thread for Silmaril hot talk and am continually let down.
Did the Arkenstone have properties similar to the Simirils that evokes strong greed?
OR
Is the gold lust unique to dwarves?
I would argue that the arkenstone in the books displays almost no magical will at all and that gold lust isn't even really a thing specifically for dwarves.
The movies obviously dive into things such as Throin's dragon sickness and the gold lust and greed of the dwarves especially when around the arkenstone but the books actually focus a lot more on the uncorruptibility of the dwarves will.
In the books Thorin's quest is much more about the recapture of his homeland and his obsession with the cultural heritage of the dwarves. Remember the only reason Biblo was even along for the ride was an a bugler, not to steal a mountains worth of gold but instead steal back a few select important items related to the kingdom and its history, the arkenstone being one. The predominate theme/trope throughout the book is the dwarves, who are basically dwarf racial supremacists, learning that they may need the help of a hobbit, wood elves, lake people to achieve their ends. This trope culminates in the final battle of the five armies.
To demonstrate this, look no futher that how incorruptible the dwarves will is even the power of the rings which struggle to enslave and control them; "The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it."
So yes the rings could enflame their greed, but only on a limited scope and scale. I dont believe that the arkenstone, which is mostly described as a wonderous and fantastical artifact, nowhere nearly as magically powerful or dangerous as the rings, could have the same effect.
As a quick aside I think if the arkenstone could invoke such an evil lust on par with the rings in the dwarves Gandalf may have been much more hesitant to help with the journey in the first place as well.
In the end I think its safe to say that dwarves may naturally have a predisposition or weakness towards greed but its not a behavior overtly present by simply being around gold/wealth any more so than any other race.
Perhaps another good question for @ThomasFremont and @Mad_Son is does the dragons power come from their gold hoards itself, or more pointedly, does gold carry a Morgothian element of dark magic that is both corrupting to the races and empowering towards evil like dragons. If Dragons can become empowered by their gold horde, could the dragon-sickness experience actually be a soft/passive corruption emitting from a dragon empowered with a particularly valuable horde of gold?
Babuska has been killing it with his recruitment of transfers. Just in the last 2 years, he’s brought in a ton of guys who were highly recruited of of high school:
-Tre’Shaun Harrison -Trey Lowe -Charles Moore (big time DL) -Addison Gumbs -Tristan Gebbia -Tyjon Lindsay -Avery Roberts
Babuska has been killing it with his recruitment of transfers. Just in the last 2 years, he’s brought in a ton of guys who were highly recruited of of high school:
-Tre’Shaun Harrison -Trey Lowe -Charles Moore (big time DL) -Addison Gumbs -Tristan Gebbia -Tyjon Lindsay -Avery Roberts
Good place for guys like that who were mostly buried at their old schools and want to play. You get an easy path to playing time for the Beavs and a chance to be featured and put up big numbers.
Babuska has been killing it with his recruitment of transfers. Just in the last 2 years, he’s brought in a ton of guys who were highly recruited of of high school:
-Tre’Shaun Harrison -Trey Lowe -Charles Moore (big time DL) -Addison Gumbs -Tristan Gebbia -Tyjon Lindsay -Avery Roberts
Good place for guys like that who were mostly buried at their old schools and want to play. You get an easy path to playing time for the Beavs and a chance to be featured and put up big numbers.
Smith has embraced the Dennis Erickson coaching method
It worked while he was their QB, so we'll probably see them raid JUCOs and transfer portal annually
Comments
OR
Is the gold lust unique to dwarves?
The movies obviously dive into things such as Throin's dragon sickness and the gold lust and greed of the dwarves especially when around the arkenstone but the books actually focus a lot more on the uncorruptibility of the dwarves will.
In the books Thorin's quest is much more about the recapture of his homeland and his obsession with the cultural heritage of the dwarves. Remember the only reason Biblo was even along for the ride was an a bugler, not to steal a mountains worth of gold but instead steal back a few select important items related to the kingdom and its history, the arkenstone being one. The predominate theme/trope throughout the book is the dwarves, who are basically dwarf racial supremacists, learning that they may need the help of a hobbit, wood elves, lake people to achieve their ends. This trope culminates in the final battle of the five armies.
To demonstrate this, look no futher that how incorruptible the dwarves will is even the power of the rings which struggle to enslave and control them; "The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it."
So yes the rings could enflame their greed, but only on a limited scope and scale. I dont believe that the arkenstone, which is mostly described as a wonderous and fantastical artifact, nowhere nearly as magically powerful or dangerous as the rings, could have the same effect.
As a quick aside I think if the arkenstone could invoke such an evil lust on par with the rings in the dwarves Gandalf may have been much more hesitant to help with the journey in the first place as well.
In the end I think its safe to say that dwarves may naturally have a predisposition or weakness towards greed but its not a behavior overtly present by simply being around gold/wealth any more so than any other race.
Perhaps another good question for @ThomasFremont and @Mad_Son is does the dragons power come from their gold hoards itself, or more pointedly, does gold carry a Morgothian element of dark magic that is both corrupting to the races and empowering towards evil like dragons. If Dragons can become empowered by their gold horde, could the dragon-sickness experience actually be a soft/passive corruption emitting from a dragon empowered with a particularly valuable horde of gold?
Come for treshaun ... Stay for the arkenstone hawt talk.
Don’t be afraid to just jump right into the discussion next time
The Simirils were made by Feanor of the Noldor, of the light of Valar. The oldest and greatest of the elven tribes.
While the rings carry a great deal of power, they were crafted by Sauron. Though he is the big bad of the Third age, he is a servant compared to Morgoth, his master in the previous age and the original dark lord. He is of a lower order of divine beings as set forth by Tolkien in the Silmarilion.
The rings are of a lower starting power as a result. Even if Sauron put all of his essence into the One ring, it would be diminished in comparison to the Light of Valar and the craftsmanship of Feanor.
Since we do not know many details of the Arkenstone (other than being able to reasonably surmise that it is almost certainly not a Simiril), we cant fully state its power level or origin.
In the Hobbit, the Arkenstone clearly has a corrupting influence on Thorin Oakenshield. Even when Ereabor is secured and Smaug is dead, he cannot be satisfied until he has it. He goes so far as to threaten Bilbo, and nearly kills him over it.
Perhaps this is the corruption of the dragon gold all around them. But his single mindedness about the stone predates contact with the Lonely Mountain. The other dwarves seem reluctant but duty bound to obey Thorin, even in his madness. None challenge him over his choices, despite his dishonorable words.
My thought is that the dragon essenced gold is what twists his mind.
Even when offered the Arkenstone for the return of the gold of Dale and aid for LakeTown, he refuses. The symbol that meant everything at the beginning is now not worth a small fraction of his massive store of gold?
Perhaps he was being cunning and biding his time to when Dain would soon arrive with reinforcements to alter the terms. He also had no way of knowing a full blown attack was about to happen. But the way he suddenly cast aside the priceless symbol of his fathers throne in favor of greed is the work of darkness. Bilbo makes many comments about the dragon smell and bad feelings the Mountain gave him. Smaug’s evil definitely lingers. Only through the purifying glory of battle does Thorin redeem himself and live long enough to issue his apology to those that aided his folk in reclaiming their ancestral home.
-Tre’Shaun Harrison
-Trey Lowe
-Charles Moore (big time DL)
-Addison Gumbs
-Tristan Gebbia
-Tyjon Lindsay
-Avery Roberts
It worked while he was their QB, so we'll probably see them raid JUCOs and transfer portal annually