This NRO piece sums up my view of the Impeachment proceedings
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
Comments
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Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/ -
@creepycoug you have always seemed a fair, if swarthy, poster. How do you view this "court" assembled by Schiff? What about the evidence? You appear to be no fan of Trump, so I'd like your take on how this impeachment is being conducted. TIAFYS
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No worries the Senate will use federal rules of evidence and none of these people will be able to speak as hearsay is not allowed.
And the subpoena list will be fun! And IIRC have the force of law. -
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/ -
Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/ -
If his personal aim had been better there would have been no evidence.HHusky said:
Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
Clinton's degeneracy very much affected his discharge of his duties as POTUS. How much time and energy do sex scandals take up from the hardest job in the world? -
Is perjury a felony consuelo?HHusky said:
Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
Can you hold a job in law enforcement, military, intelligence service or even be an attorney with a felony conviction? -
But you were talking about his perjury. His degeneracy was simply a hobby. Like golf.YellowSnow said:
If his personal aim had been better there would have been no evidence.HHusky said:
Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
Clinton's degeneracy very much affected his discharge of his duties as POTUS. How much time and energy do sex scandals take up from the hardest job in the world? -
I'll be honest here: for most of this investigation / witch hunt stuff, choose your term, I've tried to maintain an agnostic position on the facts because I'm not really in a position to know anything. I'm just here in Seattle, soaking wet, trying to pull off convincing everyone I'm a real lawyer. It's hard. That goes from SCOTUS hearings, Mueller and Russia to Ukraine Gate.Swaye said:@creepycoug you have always seemed a fair, if swarthy, poster. How do you view this "court" assembled by Schiff? What about the evidence? You appear to be no fan of Trump, so I'd like your take on how this impeachment is being conducted. TIAFYS
On Trump in general, I'm truly ambivalent. There's a lot of this neo-con platform I like and some I don't. As for Trump himself, I think he's a guy who's used to being a CEO-like figure and thus tends to default to doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. That all said, there no question in my mind that the left is fractured and phuked up; the centrists have lost and the party is now being run by a bunch of reactionary idiots who are easily lured into overplaying their hand to the point where they have no credibility. Do I believe that crowd is capable of staging a mob witch hunt and doing shit they shouldn't do and justify to themselves that the goal of "saving the country", which they're convinced they're doing, justifies their shady behavior? W/o question, yes, I believe that.
But as Yella pointed out, whatever Trump did, even the worst version of that is not Watergate-level and thus, on the basis of maintain some credibility in our processes he should not suffer as severe a fate as did Nixon. So if I had the deciding vote, based only what I know, I'd vote against impeachment, which, btw, would be a favor to the left.
On the blow by blow of Schiff and Jordan and this committee met in a basement and deep state this and Al Barr that, ... honestly I leave that for others to follow because I haven't the attention span for it. I'm 3500 miles away and don't have connections close enough to those circles to have any intel. As a pretend lawyer, it's drilled into your head in pretend law school to focus more on what you don't know than what you do know.
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Nixon only lost in the court of public opinion once the tapes were released and his own words impugned him. Holding up tax payer appropriated funds to further his own personal political goals is far worse than watergate or blowjobgate BUT the dems and the public are still lacking a "tape" of Trump explicitly directing the scheme. Would Mulvaney or Bolton provide that smoking gun? Maybe. Without that though this won't go anywhere.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/ -
This is a policy difference dressed up as an offense
Trump actually delivered aid that Obama didn't
Pop quiz who was president when Russia waltzed into the crimea? -
Investigating Ukraine interference in the 2016 election and Biden corruption is not a personal matter for Trump
What a stupid talking point. -
Must be why his personal lawyer was running a shadow foreign policy to get it done. Thanks Einstein!RaceBannon said:Investigating Ukraine interference in the 2016 election and Biden corruption is not a personal matter for Trump
What a stupid talking point. -
No answer to my question consuelo?
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Personal lawyer or representative of the presidentHHusky said:
Must be why his personal lawyer was running a shadow foreign policy to get it done. Thanks Einstein!RaceBannon said:Investigating Ukraine interference in the 2016 election and Biden corruption is not a personal matter for Trump
What a stupid talking point.
Suck harder
Shadow foreign policy. How does that work with the focus group? -
They support trump’s impeachment.RaceBannon said:
Personal lawyer or representative of the presidentHHusky said:
Must be why his personal lawyer was running a shadow foreign policy to get it done. Thanks Einstein!RaceBannon said:Investigating Ukraine interference in the 2016 election and Biden corruption is not a personal matter for Trump
What a stupid talking point.
Suck harder
Shadow foreign policy. How does that work with the focus group? -
"consuelo" means "comfort"or "solace" in Spanish. Is there some humor from that term the rest of us are supposed to understand?Sledog said:
Is perjury a felony consuelo?HHusky said:
Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
Can you hold a job in law enforcement, military, intelligence service or even be an attorney with a felony conviction? -
Perhaps.GDS said:
Nixon only lost in the court of public opinion once the tapes were released and his own words impugned him. Holding up tax payer appropriated funds to further his own personal political goals is far worse than watergate or blowjobgate BUT the dems and the public are still lacking a "tape" of Trump explicitly directing the scheme. Would Mulvaney or Bolton provide that smoking gun? Maybe. Without that though this won't go anywhere.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
People forget that Nixon's worst "impeachable" offense came in days leading up to the 1968 election. And we only new about it because LBJ was spying on Nixon. -
Evidently not.creepycoug said:
"consuelo" means "comfort"or "solace" in Spanish. Is there some humor from that term the rest of us are supposed to understand?Sledog said:
Is perjury a felony consuelo?HHusky said:
Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
Can you hold a job in law enforcement, military, intelligence service or even be an attorney with a felony conviction? -
Evidently.
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This is why you are an adult in the room. Even if you like to pick on the local retards.creepycoug said:
I'll be honest here: for most of this investigation / witch hunt stuff, choose your term, I've tried to maintain an agnostic position on the facts because I'm not really in a position to know anything. I'm just here in Seattle, soaking wet, trying to pull off convincing everyone I'm a real lawyer. It's hard. That goes from SCOTUS hearings, Mueller and Russia to Ukraine Gate.Swaye said:@creepycoug you have always seemed a fair, if swarthy, poster. How do you view this "court" assembled by Schiff? What about the evidence? You appear to be no fan of Trump, so I'd like your take on how this impeachment is being conducted. TIAFYS
On Trump in general, I'm truly ambivalent. There's a lot of this neo-con platform I like and some I don't. As for Trump himself, I think he's a guy who's used to being a CEO-like figure and thus tends to default to doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. That all said, there no question in my mind that the left is fractured and phuked up; the centrists have lost and the party is now being run by a bunch of reactionary idiots who are easily lured into overplaying their hand to the point where they have no credibility. Do I believe that crowd is capable of staging a mob witch hunt and doing shit they shouldn't do and justify to themselves that the goal of "saving the country", which they're convinced they're doing, justifies their shady behavior? W/o question, yes, I believe that.
But as Yella pointed out, whatever Trump did, even the worst version of that is not Watergate-level and thus, on the basis of maintain some credibility in our processes he should not suffer as severe a fate as did Nixon. So if I had the deciding vote, based only what I know, I'd vote against impeachment, which, btw, would be a favor to the left.
On the blow by blow of Schiff and Jordan and this committee met in a basement and deep state this and Al Barr that, ... honestly I leave that for others to follow because I haven't the attention span for it. I'm 3500 miles away and don't have connections close enough to those circles to have any intel. As a pretend lawyer, it's drilled into your head in pretend law school to focus more on what you don't know than what you do know. -
We? the public only learned about the evidence of Nixon's overtures to Thieu after he was gone...again lacked the "smoking gun".YellowSnow said:
Perhaps.GDS said:
Nixon only lost in the court of public opinion once the tapes were released and his own words impugned him. Holding up tax payer appropriated funds to further his own personal political goals is far worse than watergate or blowjobgate BUT the dems and the public are still lacking a "tape" of Trump explicitly directing the scheme. Would Mulvaney or Bolton provide that smoking gun? Maybe. Without that though this won't go anywhere.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
People forget that Nixon's worst "impeachable" offense came in days leading up to the 1968 election. And we only new about it because LBJ was spying on Nixon. -
Hillary.RaceBannon said:This is a policy difference dressed up as an offense
Trump actually delivered aid that Obama didn't
Pop quiz who was president when Russia waltzed into the crimea?
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Hence why @creepycoug is my consigliere . His personal loyalty to me based on row boat respeck can never be doubted.UW_Doog_Bot said:
This is why you are an adult in the room. Even if you like to pick on the local retards.creepycoug said:
I'll be honest here: for most of this investigation / witch hunt stuff, choose your term, I've tried to maintain an agnostic position on the facts because I'm not really in a position to know anything. I'm just here in Seattle, soaking wet, trying to pull off convincing everyone I'm a real lawyer. It's hard. That goes from SCOTUS hearings, Mueller and Russia to Ukraine Gate.Swaye said:@creepycoug you have always seemed a fair, if swarthy, poster. How do you view this "court" assembled by Schiff? What about the evidence? You appear to be no fan of Trump, so I'd like your take on how this impeachment is being conducted. TIAFYS
On Trump in general, I'm truly ambivalent. There's a lot of this neo-con platform I like and some I don't. As for Trump himself, I think he's a guy who's used to being a CEO-like figure and thus tends to default to doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. That all said, there no question in my mind that the left is fractured and phuked up; the centrists have lost and the party is now being run by a bunch of reactionary idiots who are easily lured into overplaying their hand to the point where they have no credibility. Do I believe that crowd is capable of staging a mob witch hunt and doing shit they shouldn't do and justify to themselves that the goal of "saving the country", which they're convinced they're doing, justifies their shady behavior? W/o question, yes, I believe that.
But as Yella pointed out, whatever Trump did, even the worst version of that is not Watergate-level and thus, on the basis of maintain some credibility in our processes he should not suffer as severe a fate as did Nixon. So if I had the deciding vote, based only what I know, I'd vote against impeachment, which, btw, would be a favor to the left.
On the blow by blow of Schiff and Jordan and this committee met in a basement and deep state this and Al Barr that, ... honestly I leave that for others to follow because I haven't the attention span for it. I'm 3500 miles away and don't have connections close enough to those circles to have any intel. As a pretend lawyer, it's drilled into your head in pretend law school to focus more on what you don't know than what you do know.
If any of you guy's gets in my way, just one call to Creep and problem solved.
-
Is there a person alive who watched Godfather who didn't say, "fuck yeah!" upon watch the horse head scene? That pompous ass Holywood director ... all because Johnny moved in on his piece of ass? Be a man!YellowSnow said:
Hence why @creepycoug is my consigliere . His personal loyalty to me based on row boat respeck can never be doubted.UW_Doog_Bot said:
This is why you are an adult in the room. Even if you like to pick on the local retards.creepycoug said:
I'll be honest here: for most of this investigation / witch hunt stuff, choose your term, I've tried to maintain an agnostic position on the facts because I'm not really in a position to know anything. I'm just here in Seattle, soaking wet, trying to pull off convincing everyone I'm a real lawyer. It's hard. That goes from SCOTUS hearings, Mueller and Russia to Ukraine Gate.Swaye said:@creepycoug you have always seemed a fair, if swarthy, poster. How do you view this "court" assembled by Schiff? What about the evidence? You appear to be no fan of Trump, so I'd like your take on how this impeachment is being conducted. TIAFYS
On Trump in general, I'm truly ambivalent. There's a lot of this neo-con platform I like and some I don't. As for Trump himself, I think he's a guy who's used to being a CEO-like figure and thus tends to default to doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. That all said, there no question in my mind that the left is fractured and phuked up; the centrists have lost and the party is now being run by a bunch of reactionary idiots who are easily lured into overplaying their hand to the point where they have no credibility. Do I believe that crowd is capable of staging a mob witch hunt and doing shit they shouldn't do and justify to themselves that the goal of "saving the country", which they're convinced they're doing, justifies their shady behavior? W/o question, yes, I believe that.
But as Yella pointed out, whatever Trump did, even the worst version of that is not Watergate-level and thus, on the basis of maintain some credibility in our processes he should not suffer as severe a fate as did Nixon. So if I had the deciding vote, based only what I know, I'd vote against impeachment, which, btw, would be a favor to the left.
On the blow by blow of Schiff and Jordan and this committee met in a basement and deep state this and Al Barr that, ... honestly I leave that for others to follow because I haven't the attention span for it. I'm 3500 miles away and don't have connections close enough to those circles to have any intel. As a pretend lawyer, it's drilled into your head in pretend law school to focus more on what you don't know than what you do know.
If any of you guy's gets in my way, just one call to Creep and problem solved. -
Point being, numerous POTUS have broken the rules BIGLY and never got caught or NOC.GDS said:
We? the public only learned about the evidence of Nixon's overtures to Thieu after he was gone...again lacked the "smoking gun".YellowSnow said:
Perhaps.GDS said:
Nixon only lost in the court of public opinion once the tapes were released and his own words impugned him. Holding up tax payer appropriated funds to further his own personal political goals is far worse than watergate or blowjobgate BUT the dems and the public are still lacking a "tape" of Trump explicitly directing the scheme. Would Mulvaney or Bolton provide that smoking gun? Maybe. Without that though this won't go anywhere.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
People forget that Nixon's worst "impeachable" offense came in days leading up to the 1968 election. And we only new about it because LBJ was spying on Nixon.
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Good chit. TYFYScreepycoug said:
I'll be honest here: for most of this investigation / witch hunt stuff, choose your term, I've tried to maintain an agnostic position on the facts because I'm not really in a position to know anything. I'm just here in Seattle, soaking wet, trying to pull off convincing everyone I'm a real lawyer. It's hard. That goes from SCOTUS hearings, Mueller and Russia to Ukraine Gate.Swaye said:@creepycoug you have always seemed a fair, if swarthy, poster. How do you view this "court" assembled by Schiff? What about the evidence? You appear to be no fan of Trump, so I'd like your take on how this impeachment is being conducted. TIAFYS
On Trump in general, I'm truly ambivalent. There's a lot of this neo-con platform I like and some I don't. As for Trump himself, I think he's a guy who's used to being a CEO-like figure and thus tends to default to doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. That all said, there no question in my mind that the left is fractured and phuked up; the centrists have lost and the party is now being run by a bunch of reactionary idiots who are easily lured into overplaying their hand to the point where they have no credibility. Do I believe that crowd is capable of staging a mob witch hunt and doing shit they shouldn't do and justify to themselves that the goal of "saving the country", which they're convinced they're doing, justifies their shady behavior? W/o question, yes, I believe that.
But as Yella pointed out, whatever Trump did, even the worst version of that is not Watergate-level and thus, on the basis of maintain some credibility in our processes he should not suffer as severe a fate as did Nixon. So if I had the deciding vote, based only what I know, I'd vote against impeachment, which, btw, would be a favor to the left.
On the blow by blow of Schiff and Jordan and this committee met in a basement and deep state this and Al Barr that, ... honestly I leave that for others to follow because I haven't the attention span for it. I'm 3500 miles away and don't have connections close enough to those circles to have any intel. As a pretend lawyer, it's drilled into your head in pretend law school to focus more on what you don't know than what you do know. -
Picking on retards is my way of dealing with the dysfunction acquired from the beatings I suffered behind Kane Hall. Axe @YellowSnow about it. He knows what happened to me.UW_Doog_Bot said:
This is why you are an adult in the room. Even if you like to pick on the local retards.creepycoug said:
I'll be honest here: for most of this investigation / witch hunt stuff, choose your term, I've tried to maintain an agnostic position on the facts because I'm not really in a position to know anything. I'm just here in Seattle, soaking wet, trying to pull off convincing everyone I'm a real lawyer. It's hard. That goes from SCOTUS hearings, Mueller and Russia to Ukraine Gate.Swaye said:@creepycoug you have always seemed a fair, if swarthy, poster. How do you view this "court" assembled by Schiff? What about the evidence? You appear to be no fan of Trump, so I'd like your take on how this impeachment is being conducted. TIAFYS
On Trump in general, I'm truly ambivalent. There's a lot of this neo-con platform I like and some I don't. As for Trump himself, I think he's a guy who's used to being a CEO-like figure and thus tends to default to doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. That all said, there no question in my mind that the left is fractured and phuked up; the centrists have lost and the party is now being run by a bunch of reactionary idiots who are easily lured into overplaying their hand to the point where they have no credibility. Do I believe that crowd is capable of staging a mob witch hunt and doing shit they shouldn't do and justify to themselves that the goal of "saving the country", which they're convinced they're doing, justifies their shady behavior? W/o question, yes, I believe that.
But as Yella pointed out, whatever Trump did, even the worst version of that is not Watergate-level and thus, on the basis of maintain some credibility in our processes he should not suffer as severe a fate as did Nixon. So if I had the deciding vote, based only what I know, I'd vote against impeachment, which, btw, would be a favor to the left.
On the blow by blow of Schiff and Jordan and this committee met in a basement and deep state this and Al Barr that, ... honestly I leave that for others to follow because I haven't the attention span for it. I'm 3500 miles away and don't have connections close enough to those circles to have any intel. As a pretend lawyer, it's drilled into your head in pretend law school to focus more on what you don't know than what you do know. -
Wouldn't you agree that had congress and the public had access to the information at the time he doesn't even survive until 1974? Nixon knew the charge was serious hence why he called LBJ to try and claim he didn't make the overture he made.YellowSnow said:
Point being, numerous POTUS have broken the rules BIGLY and never got caught or NOC.GDS said:
We? the public only learned about the evidence of Nixon's overtures to Thieu after he was gone...again lacked the "smoking gun".YellowSnow said:
Perhaps.GDS said:
Nixon only lost in the court of public opinion once the tapes were released and his own words impugned him. Holding up tax payer appropriated funds to further his own personal political goals is far worse than watergate or blowjobgate BUT the dems and the public are still lacking a "tape" of Trump explicitly directing the scheme. Would Mulvaney or Bolton provide that smoking gun? Maybe. Without that though this won't go anywhere.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
People forget that Nixon's worst "impeachable" offense came in days leading up to the 1968 election. And we only new about it because LBJ was spying on Nixon.
I have to disagree with the notion that because Nixon got away with (arguably) treason in the lead up to the 68 election we? shouldn't hold future presidents accountable for (arguably) lesser but still serious charges. -
It's not a hard and fast rule. But like the death penalty, you should strive for what they call at the appellate level for those cases "proportionate imposition of the ultimate penalty". Why? Because the whole thing will almost always involve partisanship, and ideally you want your institutions to have some level of an outward appearance of fairness. Otherwise they don't mean anything and nobody takes them seriously.GDS said:
Wouldn't you agree that had congress and the public had access to the information at the time he doesn't even survive until 1974? Nixon knew the charge was serious hence why he called LBJ to try and claim he didn't make the overture he made.YellowSnow said:
Point being, numerous POTUS have broken the rules BIGLY and never got caught or NOC.GDS said:
We? the public only learned about the evidence of Nixon's overtures to Thieu after he was gone...again lacked the "smoking gun".YellowSnow said:
Perhaps.GDS said:
Nixon only lost in the court of public opinion once the tapes were released and his own words impugned him. Holding up tax payer appropriated funds to further his own personal political goals is far worse than watergate or blowjobgate BUT the dems and the public are still lacking a "tape" of Trump explicitly directing the scheme. Would Mulvaney or Bolton provide that smoking gun? Maybe. Without that though this won't go anywhere.YellowSnow said:
Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.creepycoug said:
Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.YellowSnow said:Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.
"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/
People forget that Nixon's worst "impeachable" offense came in days leading up to the 1968 election. And we only new about it because LBJ was spying on Nixon.
I have to disagree with the notion that because Nixon got away with (arguably) treason in the lead up to the 68 election we? shouldn't hold future presidents accountable for (arguably) lesser but still serious charges.
