This NRO piece sums up my view of the Impeachment proceedings

YellowSnow

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

creepycoug

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Swaye

@creepycoug you have always seemed a fair, if swarthy, poster. How do you view this "court" assembled by Schiff? What about the evidence? You appear to be no fan of Trump, so I'd like your take on how this impeachment is being conducted. TIAFYS

Sledog

No worries the Senate will use federal rules of evidence and none of these people will be able to speak as hearsay is not allowed.

And the subpoena list will be fun! And IIRC have the force of law.

YellowSnow

creepycoug said:

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.

HHusky

YellowSnow said:

creepycoug said:

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.

Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.

YellowSnow

HHusky said:

YellowSnow said:

creepycoug said:

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.

Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.

If his personal aim had been better there would have been no evidence.

Clinton's degeneracy very much affected his discharge of his duties as POTUS. How much time and energy do sex scandals take up from the hardest job in the world?

Sledog

HHusky said:

YellowSnow said:

creepycoug said:

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.

Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.

Is perjury a felony consuelo?

Can you hold a job in law enforcement, military, intelligence service or even be an attorney with a felony conviction?

HHusky

YellowSnow said:

HHusky said:

YellowSnow said:

creepycoug said:

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.

Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.

If his personal aim had been better there would have been no evidence.

Clinton's degeneracy very much affected his discharge of his duties as POTUS. How much time and energy do sex scandals take up from the hardest job in the world?

But you were talking about his perjury. His degeneracy was simply a hobby. Like golf.

creepycoug

Swaye said:

@creepycoug you have always seemed a fair, if swarthy, poster. How do you view this "court" assembled by Schiff? What about the evidence? You appear to be no fan of Trump, so I'd like your take on how this impeachment is being conducted. TIAFYS

I'll be honest here: for most of this investigation / witch hunt stuff, choose your term, I've tried to maintain an agnostic position on the facts because I'm not really in a position to know anything. I'm just here in Seattle, soaking wet, trying to pull off convincing everyone I'm a real lawyer. It's hard. That goes from SCOTUS hearings, Mueller and Russia to Ukraine Gate.

On Trump in general, I'm truly ambivalent. There's a lot of this neo-con platform I like and some I don't. As for Trump himself, I think he's a guy who's used to being a CEO-like figure and thus tends to default to doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. That all said, there no question in my mind that the left is fractured and phuked up; the centrists have lost and the party is now being run by a bunch of reactionary idiots who are easily lured into overplaying their hand to the point where they have no credibility. Do I believe that crowd is capable of staging a mob witch hunt and doing shit they shouldn't do and justify to themselves that the goal of "saving the country", which they're convinced they're doing, justifies their shady behavior? W/o question, yes, I believe that.

But as Yella pointed out, whatever Trump did, even the worst version of that is not Watergate-level and thus, on the basis of maintain some credibility in our processes he should not suffer as severe a fate as did Nixon. So if I had the deciding vote, based only what I know, I'd vote against impeachment, which, btw, would be a favor to the left.

On the blow by blow of Schiff and Jordan and this committee met in a basement and deep state this and Al Barr that, ... honestly I leave that for others to follow because I haven't the attention span for it. I'm 3500 miles away and don't have connections close enough to those circles to have any intel. As a pretend lawyer, it's drilled into your head in pretend law school to focus more on what you don't know than what you do know.

GDS

YellowSnow said:

creepycoug said:

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.

Nixon only lost in the court of public opinion once the tapes were released and his own words impugned him. Holding up tax payer appropriated funds to further his own personal political goals is far worse than watergate or blowjobgate BUT the dems and the public are still lacking a "tape" of Trump explicitly directing the scheme. Would Mulvaney or Bolton provide that smoking gun? Maybe. Without that though this won't go anywhere.

RaceBannon

This is a policy difference dressed up as an offense
Trump actually delivered aid that Obama didn't

Pop quiz who was president when Russia waltzed into the crimea?

RaceBannon

Investigating Ukraine interference in the 2016 election and Biden corruption is not a personal matter for Trump

What a stupid talking point.

HHusky

RaceBannon said:

Investigating Ukraine interference in the 2016 election and Biden corruption is not a personal matter for Trump

What a stupid talking point.

Must be why his personal lawyer was running a shadow foreign policy to get it done. Thanks Einstein!

Sledog

No answer to my question consuelo?

RaceBannon

HHusky said:

RaceBannon said:

Investigating Ukraine interference in the 2016 election and Biden corruption is not a personal matter for Trump

What a stupid talking point.

Must be why his personal lawyer was running a shadow foreign policy to get it done. Thanks Einstein!

Personal lawyer or representative of the president

Suck harder

Shadow foreign policy. How does that work with the focus group?

CirrhosisDawg

RaceBannon said:

HHusky said:

RaceBannon said:

Investigating Ukraine interference in the 2016 election and Biden corruption is not a personal matter for Trump

What a stupid talking point.

Must be why his personal lawyer was running a shadow foreign policy to get it done. Thanks Einstein!

Personal lawyer or representative of the president

Suck harder

Shadow foreign policy. How does that work with the focus group?

They support trump’s impeachment.

creepycoug

Sledog said:

HHusky said:

YellowSnow said:

creepycoug said:

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.

Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.

Is perjury a felony consuelo?

Can you hold a job in law enforcement, military, intelligence service or even be an attorney with a felony conviction?

"consuelo" means "comfort"or "solace" in Spanish. Is there some humor from that term the rest of us are supposed to understand?

YellowSnow

GDS said:

YellowSnow said:

creepycoug said:

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.

Nixon only lost in the court of public opinion once the tapes were released and his own words impugned him. Holding up tax payer appropriated funds to further his own personal political goals is far worse than watergate or blowjobgate BUT the dems and the public are still lacking a "tape" of Trump explicitly directing the scheme. Would Mulvaney or Bolton provide that smoking gun? Maybe. Without that though this won't go anywhere.

Perhaps.

People forget that Nixon's worst "impeachable" offense came in days leading up to the 1968 election. And we only new about it because LBJ was spying on Nixon.

Sledog

creepycoug said:

Sledog said:

HHusky said:

YellowSnow said:

creepycoug said:

YellowSnow said:

Trump is a Boob @Swaye . But where do his transgressions rank in the History of the Republic? I can think of plenty worse by past Presidents who never came close to losing their jobs.

"This is a country that backed away from removing Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and that avoided the first successful impeachment of a sitting president because of Richard Nixon’s resignation. A Senate vote to remove Trump would effectively declare that Trump’s phone call to the Ukrainian president, and other efforts to hold up congressionally appropriated aid to Ukraine, was the worst decision of any president in American history, and the only one that warranted this ultimate punishment."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/decide-trumps-fate-at-the-ballot-box/

Stare decisis. It doesn't technically apply to these proceedings; for as many have pointed out, this is political, not legal. That said, it still matters as a fundamental indicator of fairness and intellectual honesty in how we? manage important processes.

Impeachment is very much political and not criminal. Nixon lost in the court of public opinion which is why he had to resign. In this current era of 50/50 scorched Earth polarization, something equivalent to quid pro quo badgering of a foreign leader ain't enough to get it done. I think Clinton's perjury is probably morally equivalent to Trump's phone call and yet the Dems told us we needed to Moveon.Org because of 60% approval ratings.

Clinton’s perjury didn’t involve a conflict between the discharge of his core duties as President and his personal aims.

Is perjury a felony consuelo?

Can you hold a job in law enforcement, military, intelligence service or even be an attorney with a felony conviction?

"consuelo" means "comfort"or "solace" in Spanish. Is there some humor from that term the rest of us are supposed to understand?

Evidently not.

creepycoug

Evidently.