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Yang on Shapiro

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Comments

  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 35,311 Founders Club
    edited April 2019

    Swaye said:

    I cannot understand what has happened to my lone liberal cool bro APAG. Ah well, things change and I can handle the ups and downs of AOC the bartenders cult of personality I suppose.

    Point of order though - Ben Shapiro, whether he hates Jews or not, is not some small time guy. He is actually becoming a pretty big player in the ultra conservative uber intelligent great policy debater circles of the world. It is known Jon Snow.

    Impressed Yang would do this - Shaprio routinely destroys everyone with his grasp of policy and keen intellect, so even going on there takes balls of steel and true belief. Of course I don't agree with most of his policies, but I automatically like him more than all the rest of the field because he is likeable, rational and has a strong command of the issues - unlike most of the retards the Dems have shit out to run this cycle.

    I'm a liberal cool bro @Swaye compared to our ideologically pure right wingers at HH.
    I’m the most liberal person here. Fact.
    Actually I am
    You and @MikeDamone are both welcome in my liberal party.
    I prefer the one before the leftists took the word.

    Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.
    That's what I meant. Alas, it take a lot more governance to run a modern post industrial society of 320,000,000 in 2019 than a pre-industrial one of 3,000,000 in 1776.
    Like what?

    In 1776 @MikeDamone most of the citizenry were pour farmers and life expectancy was something like 36 (i.e., not that many old fuckers to take care of). The pours could keep moving West and get land for dirt cheap or free. This relieved a lot of social pressure where as in places like France around the same time, the pours decided to revolt over bread prices and other shit. Other than the Revolution and 1812 we were protected by 2 massive oceans and with no real external threats until the 20th century. That made for one low cost defense budget.

    But once the pours moved off the farms and into the cities in the later 19th and early 20th century it started getting harder to relieve their grievances. Like it or not, in a democracy you can only have so much of a spread in standard of living between the pours/middle class and the upper classes. Marx predicted that revolution would first come in the industrialized west- i.e., USA, France, Britain, etc - and yet that never happened because those societies conceded that a certain amount of welfare state / economic redistribution was necessary to stave off revolutions.

    The problem we have now is that the way we redistribute wealth in this country is terribly bureaucratic , inefficient and create disincentive towards work. This is what we need to fix.
    Nothing you said has anything to do with this:

    “Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.”
    What in the hell do you think was the proximate cause of the Revolution in the first place? Britain became a world empire in the wake of the Seven Years / French and Indian War and in 1763 decided to keep a large army in the Colonies and had to levy a bunch of new taxes (w/o representation in Westminster) on the colonials to pay for it.

    In 2019, Damone, what would you say is your #1 political grievance and biggest threat to your liberty? Is it just me or have I heard you state that #taxationistheft multiple times? So I wrote a few paragraphs on why the size of government and what we have to pay in taxes is much higher in 2019 than 1776.
  • UW_Doog_BotUW_Doog_Bot Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 15,632 Swaye's Wigwam

    Swaye said:

    I cannot understand what has happened to my lone liberal cool bro APAG. Ah well, things change and I can handle the ups and downs of AOC the bartenders cult of personality I suppose.

    Point of order though - Ben Shapiro, whether he hates Jews or not, is not some small time guy. He is actually becoming a pretty big player in the ultra conservative uber intelligent great policy debater circles of the world. It is known Jon Snow.

    Impressed Yang would do this - Shaprio routinely destroys everyone with his grasp of policy and keen intellect, so even going on there takes balls of steel and true belief. Of course I don't agree with most of his policies, but I automatically like him more than all the rest of the field because he is likeable, rational and has a strong command of the issues - unlike most of the retards the Dems have shit out to run this cycle.

    I'm a liberal cool bro @Swaye compared to our ideologically pure right wingers at HH.
    I’m the most liberal person here. Fact.
    Actually I am
    You and @MikeDamone are both welcome in my liberal party.
    I prefer the one before the leftists took the word.

    Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.
    That's what I meant. Alas, it take a lot more governance to run a modern post industrial society of 320,000,000 in 2019 than a pre-industrial one of 3,000,000 in 1776.
    Like what?

    In 1776 @MikeDamone most of the citizenry were pour farmers and life expectancy was something like 36 (i.e., not that many old fuckers to take care of). The pours could keep moving West and get land for dirt cheap or free. This relieved a lot of social pressure where as in places like France around the same time, the pours decided to revolt over bread prices and other shit. Other than the Revolution and 1812 we were protected by 2 massive oceans and with no real external threats until the 20th century. That made for one low cost defense budget.

    But once the pours moved off the farms and into the cities in the later 19th and early 20th century it started getting harder to relieve their grievances. Like it or not, in a democracy you can only have so much of a spread in standard of living between the pours/middle class and the upper classes. Marx predicted that revolution would first come in the industrialized west- i.e., USA, France, Britain, etc - and yet that never happened because those societies conceded that a certain amount of welfare state / economic redistribution was necessary to stave off revolutions.

    The problem we have now is that the way we redistribute wealth in this country is terribly bureaucratic , inefficient and create disincentive towards work. This is what we need to fix.
    Among other flaws in this thinking, Marx's prediction proved false because free markets made everyone in a nation richer, not just a select few. The most free markets have consistently produced more wealth for their entire populations than any socialized system devised that doesn't resemble a Saudi oil state.

    Related to the line of thinking, contrary to popular government produced history textbooks, the Gilded Age monopolies were very much helped along by rent-seeking politics and not the product of Laissez-faire capitalism. Standard Oil, The Railroads, Jp Morgan, Cattle Barons, etc. all had paid and bought for politicians, abused imminent domain, created laws against organized labor, and used licensing and regulations to dominate market share. None of those actions are trademarks of a "free market" where classical liberal values of protecting an individual's rights are paramount. Quite the opposite and in line with Mike's point that government institutions should be viewed as a "necessary evil" that are closely guarded against themselves.
  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 35,311 Founders Club

    Swaye said:

    I cannot understand what has happened to my lone liberal cool bro APAG. Ah well, things change and I can handle the ups and downs of AOC the bartenders cult of personality I suppose.

    Point of order though - Ben Shapiro, whether he hates Jews or not, is not some small time guy. He is actually becoming a pretty big player in the ultra conservative uber intelligent great policy debater circles of the world. It is known Jon Snow.

    Impressed Yang would do this - Shaprio routinely destroys everyone with his grasp of policy and keen intellect, so even going on there takes balls of steel and true belief. Of course I don't agree with most of his policies, but I automatically like him more than all the rest of the field because he is likeable, rational and has a strong command of the issues - unlike most of the retards the Dems have shit out to run this cycle.

    I'm a liberal cool bro @Swaye compared to our ideologically pure right wingers at HH.
    I’m the most liberal person here. Fact.
    Actually I am
    You and @MikeDamone are both welcome in my liberal party.
    I prefer the one before the leftists took the word.

    Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.
    That's what I meant. Alas, it take a lot more governance to run a modern post industrial society of 320,000,000 in 2019 than a pre-industrial one of 3,000,000 in 1776.
    Like what?

    In 1776 @MikeDamone most of the citizenry were pour farmers and life expectancy was something like 36 (i.e., not that many old fuckers to take care of). The pours could keep moving West and get land for dirt cheap or free. This relieved a lot of social pressure where as in places like France around the same time, the pours decided to revolt over bread prices and other shit. Other than the Revolution and 1812 we were protected by 2 massive oceans and with no real external threats until the 20th century. That made for one low cost defense budget.

    But once the pours moved off the farms and into the cities in the later 19th and early 20th century it started getting harder to relieve their grievances. Like it or not, in a democracy you can only have so much of a spread in standard of living between the pours/middle class and the upper classes. Marx predicted that revolution would first come in the industrialized west- i.e., USA, France, Britain, etc - and yet that never happened because those societies conceded that a certain amount of welfare state / economic redistribution was necessary to stave off revolutions.

    The problem we have now is that the way we redistribute wealth in this country is terribly bureaucratic , inefficient and create disincentive towards work. This is what we need to fix.
    Among other flaws in this thinking, Marx's prediction proved false because free markets made everyone in a nation richer, not just a select few. The most free markets have consistently produced more wealth for their entire populations than any socialized system devised that doesn't resemble a Saudi oil state.

    Related to the line of thinking, contrary to popular government produced history textbooks, the Gilded Age monopolies were very much helped along by rent-seeking politics and not the product of Laissez-faire capitalism. Standard Oil, The Railroads, Jp Morgan, Cattle Barons, etc. all had paid and bought for politicians, abused imminent domain, created laws against organized labor, and used licensing and regulations to dominate market share. None of those actions are trademarks of a "free market" where classical liberal values of protecting an individual's rights are paramount. Quite the opposite and in line with Mike's point that government institutions should be viewed as a "necessary evil" that are closely guarded against themselves.
    I wholeheartedly agree with everything above. But again my perception as it relates to MD's grievances about individual rights and liberties have a heck of a lot to do with #taxationistheft
  • MikeDamoneMikeDamone Member Posts: 37,781

    Swaye said:

    I cannot understand what has happened to my lone liberal cool bro APAG. Ah well, things change and I can handle the ups and downs of AOC the bartenders cult of personality I suppose.

    Point of order though - Ben Shapiro, whether he hates Jews or not, is not some small time guy. He is actually becoming a pretty big player in the ultra conservative uber intelligent great policy debater circles of the world. It is known Jon Snow.

    Impressed Yang would do this - Shaprio routinely destroys everyone with his grasp of policy and keen intellect, so even going on there takes balls of steel and true belief. Of course I don't agree with most of his policies, but I automatically like him more than all the rest of the field because he is likeable, rational and has a strong command of the issues - unlike most of the retards the Dems have shit out to run this cycle.

    I'm a liberal cool bro @Swaye compared to our ideologically pure right wingers at HH.
    I’m the most liberal person here. Fact.
    Actually I am
    You and @MikeDamone are both welcome in my liberal party.
    I prefer the one before the leftists took the word.

    Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.
    That's what I meant. Alas, it take a lot more governance to run a modern post industrial society of 320,000,000 in 2019 than a pre-industrial one of 3,000,000 in 1776.
    Like what?

    In 1776 @MikeDamone most of the citizenry were pour farmers and life expectancy was something like 36 (i.e., not that many old fuckers to take care of). The pours could keep moving West and get land for dirt cheap or free. This relieved a lot of social pressure where as in places like France around the same time, the pours decided to revolt over bread prices and other shit. Other than the Revolution and 1812 we were protected by 2 massive oceans and with no real external threats until the 20th century. That made for one low cost defense budget.

    But once the pours moved off the farms and into the cities in the later 19th and early 20th century it started getting harder to relieve their grievances. Like it or not, in a democracy you can only have so much of a spread in standard of living between the pours/middle class and the upper classes. Marx predicted that revolution would first come in the industrialized west- i.e., USA, France, Britain, etc - and yet that never happened because those societies conceded that a certain amount of welfare state / economic redistribution was necessary to stave off revolutions.

    The problem we have now is that the way we redistribute wealth in this country is terribly bureaucratic , inefficient and create disincentive towards work. This is what we need to fix.
    Nothing you said has anything to do with this:

    “Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.”
    What in the hell do you think was the proximate cause of the Revolution in the first place? Britain became a world empire in the wake of the Seven Years / French and Indian War and in 1763 decided to keep a large army in the Colonies and had to levy a bunch of new taxes (w/o representation in Westminster) on the colonials to pay for it.

    In 2019, Damone, what would you say is your #1 political grievance and biggest threat to your liberty? Is it just me or have I heard you state that #taxationistheft multiple times? So I wrote a few paragraphs on why the size of government and what we have to pay in taxes is much higher in 2019 than 1776.
    I’m still not sure what your paragraphs have to do with the quote.
  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 35,311 Founders Club

    Swaye said:

    I cannot understand what has happened to my lone liberal cool bro APAG. Ah well, things change and I can handle the ups and downs of AOC the bartenders cult of personality I suppose.

    Point of order though - Ben Shapiro, whether he hates Jews or not, is not some small time guy. He is actually becoming a pretty big player in the ultra conservative uber intelligent great policy debater circles of the world. It is known Jon Snow.

    Impressed Yang would do this - Shaprio routinely destroys everyone with his grasp of policy and keen intellect, so even going on there takes balls of steel and true belief. Of course I don't agree with most of his policies, but I automatically like him more than all the rest of the field because he is likeable, rational and has a strong command of the issues - unlike most of the retards the Dems have shit out to run this cycle.

    I'm a liberal cool bro @Swaye compared to our ideologically pure right wingers at HH.
    I’m the most liberal person here. Fact.
    Actually I am
    You and @MikeDamone are both welcome in my liberal party.
    I prefer the one before the leftists took the word.

    Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.
    That's what I meant. Alas, it take a lot more governance to run a modern post industrial society of 320,000,000 in 2019 than a pre-industrial one of 3,000,000 in 1776.
    Like what?

    In 1776 @MikeDamone most of the citizenry were pour farmers and life expectancy was something like 36 (i.e., not that many old fuckers to take care of). The pours could keep moving West and get land for dirt cheap or free. This relieved a lot of social pressure where as in places like France around the same time, the pours decided to revolt over bread prices and other shit. Other than the Revolution and 1812 we were protected by 2 massive oceans and with no real external threats until the 20th century. That made for one low cost defense budget.

    But once the pours moved off the farms and into the cities in the later 19th and early 20th century it started getting harder to relieve their grievances. Like it or not, in a democracy you can only have so much of a spread in standard of living between the pours/middle class and the upper classes. Marx predicted that revolution would first come in the industrialized west- i.e., USA, France, Britain, etc - and yet that never happened because those societies conceded that a certain amount of welfare state / economic redistribution was necessary to stave off revolutions.

    The problem we have now is that the way we redistribute wealth in this country is terribly bureaucratic , inefficient and create disincentive towards work. This is what we need to fix.
    Nothing you said has anything to do with this:

    “Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.”
    What in the hell do you think was the proximate cause of the Revolution in the first place? Britain became a world empire in the wake of the Seven Years / French and Indian War and in 1763 decided to keep a large army in the Colonies and had to levy a bunch of new taxes (w/o representation in Westminster) on the colonials to pay for it.

    In 2019, Damone, what would you say is your #1 political grievance and biggest threat to your liberty? Is it just me or have I heard you state that #taxationistheft multiple times? So I wrote a few paragraphs on why the size of government and what we have to pay in taxes is much higher in 2019 than 1776.
    I’m still not sure what your paragraphs have to do with the quote.
    I give up man. You've lost me.
  • MikeDamoneMikeDamone Member Posts: 37,781

    Swaye said:

    I cannot understand what has happened to my lone liberal cool bro APAG. Ah well, things change and I can handle the ups and downs of AOC the bartenders cult of personality I suppose.

    Point of order though - Ben Shapiro, whether he hates Jews or not, is not some small time guy. He is actually becoming a pretty big player in the ultra conservative uber intelligent great policy debater circles of the world. It is known Jon Snow.

    Impressed Yang would do this - Shaprio routinely destroys everyone with his grasp of policy and keen intellect, so even going on there takes balls of steel and true belief. Of course I don't agree with most of his policies, but I automatically like him more than all the rest of the field because he is likeable, rational and has a strong command of the issues - unlike most of the retards the Dems have shit out to run this cycle.

    I'm a liberal cool bro @Swaye compared to our ideologically pure right wingers at HH.
    I’m the most liberal person here. Fact.
    Actually I am
    You and @MikeDamone are both welcome in my liberal party.
    I prefer the one before the leftists took the word.

    Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.
    That's what I meant. Alas, it take a lot more governance to run a modern post industrial society of 320,000,000 in 2019 than a pre-industrial one of 3,000,000 in 1776.
    Like what?

    In 1776 @MikeDamone most of the citizenry were pour farmers and life expectancy was something like 36 (i.e., not that many old fuckers to take care of). The pours could keep moving West and get land for dirt cheap or free. This relieved a lot of social pressure where as in places like France around the same time, the pours decided to revolt over bread prices and other shit. Other than the Revolution and 1812 we were protected by 2 massive oceans and with no real external threats until the 20th century. That made for one low cost defense budget.

    But once the pours moved off the farms and into the cities in the later 19th and early 20th century it started getting harder to relieve their grievances. Like it or not, in a democracy you can only have so much of a spread in standard of living between the pours/middle class and the upper classes. Marx predicted that revolution would first come in the industrialized west- i.e., USA, France, Britain, etc - and yet that never happened because those societies conceded that a certain amount of welfare state / economic redistribution was necessary to stave off revolutions.

    The problem we have now is that the way we redistribute wealth in this country is terribly bureaucratic , inefficient and create disincentive towards work. This is what we need to fix.
    Nothing you said has anything to do with this:

    “Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.”
    What in the hell do you think was the proximate cause of the Revolution in the first place? Britain became a world empire in the wake of the Seven Years / French and Indian War and in 1763 decided to keep a large army in the Colonies and had to levy a bunch of new taxes (w/o representation in Westminster) on the colonials to pay for it.

    In 2019, Damone, what would you say is your #1 political grievance and biggest threat to your liberty? Is it just me or have I heard you state that #taxationistheft multiple times? So I wrote a few paragraphs on why the size of government and what we have to pay in taxes is much higher in 2019 than 1776.
    I’m still not sure what your paragraphs have to do with the quote.
    I give up man. You've lost me.
    You’re basically agreeing with the “necessary evil” sentence. Nothing in the what you said is inconsistent with the quote. Identity politics and populism are the biggest threats to liberty in my opinion.
  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 35,311 Founders Club

    Swaye said:

    I cannot understand what has happened to my lone liberal cool bro APAG. Ah well, things change and I can handle the ups and downs of AOC the bartenders cult of personality I suppose.

    Point of order though - Ben Shapiro, whether he hates Jews or not, is not some small time guy. He is actually becoming a pretty big player in the ultra conservative uber intelligent great policy debater circles of the world. It is known Jon Snow.

    Impressed Yang would do this - Shaprio routinely destroys everyone with his grasp of policy and keen intellect, so even going on there takes balls of steel and true belief. Of course I don't agree with most of his policies, but I automatically like him more than all the rest of the field because he is likeable, rational and has a strong command of the issues - unlike most of the retards the Dems have shit out to run this cycle.

    I'm a liberal cool bro @Swaye compared to our ideologically pure right wingers at HH.
    I’m the most liberal person here. Fact.
    Actually I am
    You and @MikeDamone are both welcome in my liberal party.
    I prefer the one before the leftists took the word.

    Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.
    That's what I meant. Alas, it take a lot more governance to run a modern post industrial society of 320,000,000 in 2019 than a pre-industrial one of 3,000,000 in 1776.
    Like what?

    In 1776 @MikeDamone most of the citizenry were pour farmers and life expectancy was something like 36 (i.e., not that many old fuckers to take care of). The pours could keep moving West and get land for dirt cheap or free. This relieved a lot of social pressure where as in places like France around the same time, the pours decided to revolt over bread prices and other shit. Other than the Revolution and 1812 we were protected by 2 massive oceans and with no real external threats until the 20th century. That made for one low cost defense budget.

    But once the pours moved off the farms and into the cities in the later 19th and early 20th century it started getting harder to relieve their grievances. Like it or not, in a democracy you can only have so much of a spread in standard of living between the pours/middle class and the upper classes. Marx predicted that revolution would first come in the industrialized west- i.e., USA, France, Britain, etc - and yet that never happened because those societies conceded that a certain amount of welfare state / economic redistribution was necessary to stave off revolutions.

    The problem we have now is that the way we redistribute wealth in this country is terribly bureaucratic , inefficient and create disincentive towards work. This is what we need to fix.
    Nothing you said has anything to do with this:

    “Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. As the revolutionary American pamphleteer Thomas Paine expressed it in Common Sense (1776), government is at best “a necessary evil.” Laws, judges, and police are needed to secure the individual’s life and liberty, but their coercive power may also be turned against him. The problem, then, is to devise a system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also prevents those who govern from abusing that power.”
    What in the hell do you think was the proximate cause of the Revolution in the first place? Britain became a world empire in the wake of the Seven Years / French and Indian War and in 1763 decided to keep a large army in the Colonies and had to levy a bunch of new taxes (w/o representation in Westminster) on the colonials to pay for it.

    In 2019, Damone, what would you say is your #1 political grievance and biggest threat to your liberty? Is it just me or have I heard you state that #taxationistheft multiple times? So I wrote a few paragraphs on why the size of government and what we have to pay in taxes is much higher in 2019 than 1776.
    I’m still not sure what your paragraphs have to do with the quote.
    I give up man. You've lost me.
    You’re basically agreeing with the “necessary evil” sentence. Nothing in the what you said is inconsistent with the quote. Identity politics and populism are the biggest threats to liberty in my opinion.
    Of course I agree with the "necessary evil" part of the quote. My original observation was simply that the size of the government (measured by spending) is by necessary evil a hell of a lot bigger in 2019 than 1776.

    And yes, fuck identity politics and populism. My kid starts Seattle public kindygarten this fall and everything is diversity this, diversity that, blah, blah, blah. When little Yella akes me why there are tents along I-5, I say because they are lazy and don't want to go to work like Mommy and Daddy.
  • MikeDamoneMikeDamone Member Posts: 37,781
    edited April 2019
    “Of course I agree with the "necessary evil" part of the quote. My original observation was simply that the size of the government (measured by spending) is by necessary evil a hell of a lot bigger in 2019 than 1776.”


    Ok. But you made up something to argue about that was never part of the original statement.
  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 35,311 Founders Club

    “Of course I agree with the "necessary evil" part of the quote. My original observation was simply that the size of the government (measured by spending) is by necessary evil a hell of a lot bigger in 2019 than 1776.”


    Ok. But you made up something to argue about that was never part of the original statement.

    My bad. I wasn't trying to come at you bro.
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