PM to AOCfs
Comments
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In defense of India, I'm hearing they have the safest Muslim temples in the world.2001400ex said:allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
Go to India. It's wonderful. No regulations that are enforced sure is freedom. -
That's the point.Sledog said:
Who would go to a country where they shit on the street and it runs into the same river they dump all their dead bodies of both people and animals and then they drink, wash and bathe in it? Who would eat that fucking food? Who would sleep in anything they washed?2001400ex said:
Hey fuckstick. I didn't say move to India. I said go to India. Spend a week there. That's all you'll need. Or visit any other country that has shit for regulations and low taxes. And libertarian principles that you want.MikeDamone said:2001400ex said:
Are you knew hear?MikeDamone said:
Hey dumbfuck, do you ever actually have an argument?2001400ex said:allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
Go to India. It's wonderful. No regulations that are enforced sure is freedom.
Ergo decedo
Ergo decedo, Latin for "therefore leave" or "then go off", a truncation of argumentum ergo decedo, and colloquially denominated the traitorous critic fallacy,[1] denotes responding to the criticism of a critic by implying that the critic is motivated by undisclosed favorability or affiliation to an out-group, rather than responding to the criticism itself. The fallacy impliedly alleges that the critic does not appreciate the values and customs of the criticized group or is traitorous, and thus suggests that the critic should avoid the question or topic entirely, typically by leaving the criticized group.[2]
Argumentum ergo decedo is generally categorized as a species of informal fallacy and more specifically as a species of the subclass of ad hominem informal fallacies.
Contents
In politics Edit
Argumentum ergo decedo is directly related to the tu quoque fallacy when responding to political criticism. As whataboutism is used against external criticism, ergo decedo is used against internal criticism.
Examples Edit
Critic: "I think we need to work on improving Nauru's taxation system. The current system suffers from multiple issues that have been resolved in other places such as Tuvalu and the Marshall Islands."
Respondent
"Well, if you don't like it, why don't you just leave and go somewhere you think is better?"
Critic: "Our office's atmosphere is unsuitable for starting constructive conversations about reforms for the future of the company. A number of improvements are needed."
Respondent
"Well, if you don't like the corporate system, then why are you here? You should just leave!"
So you don’t ever have an argument. Got it!
Look, I don't like government more than anyone else. But we do need some regulations. We do need a lot of the services the government provides.
There is a laundry list of reasons America is the most productive country. The main one being we had the resources to be self sufficient early in the industrial age to give us a leg up. One other item is the growth in infrastructure that provide clean water and electricity. And the Government taking over the post office and building interstates for easy transportation of goods and communication.
Libertarians like you would have waited for the private sector to build roads and schools and shit. Go to a country built like that for a week and tell me how you like it.
Probably why Hondo suffered so much brain damage. -
There's like 5 people here who get that. Touche.HillsboroDuck said:
In defense of India, I'm hearing they have the safest Muslim temples in the world.2001400ex said:allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
Go to India. It's wonderful. No regulations that are enforced sure is freedom. -
30 years later and they've moved as many people out of poverty as there are currently living in the US.2001400ex said:
So 30 years later they just need more tim to get their guys in there.SFGbob said:Indian was a socialist country far longer than it's been a capitalist economy and any improvements in the quality of life and the Indian economy have all come since they've rejected Socialism.
Check out the nearly flat-line GDP under Hondo's Socialism and then compare it to free market capitalism. That's the kind of economic vitality Hondo wants for the US.
source: tradingeconomics.com
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Hondo likes Shit stained hands preparing his curry. Loves the earthy diarrhea undertone.SFGbob said:
30 years later and they've moved as many people out of poverty as there are currently living in the US.2001400ex said:
So 30 years later they just need more tim to get their guys in there.SFGbob said:Indian was a socialist country far longer than it's been a capitalist economy and any improvements in the quality of life and the Indian economy have all come since they've rejected Socialism.
Check out the nearly flat-line GDP under Hondo's Socialism and then compare it to free market capitalism. That's the kind of economic vitality Hondo wants for the US.
source: tradingeconomics.com -
They also have 3 times the population yet 1/8 the GDP.SFGbob said:
30 years later and they've moved as many people out of poverty as there are currently living in the US.2001400ex said:
So 30 years later they just need more tim to get their guys in there.SFGbob said:Indian was a socialist country far longer than it's been a capitalist economy and any improvements in the quality of life and the Indian economy have all come since they've rejected Socialism.
Check out the nearly flat-line GDP under Hondo's Socialism and then compare it to free market capitalism. That's the kind of economic vitality Hondo wants for the US.
source: tradingeconomics.com
Not to mention you lack context of how much their population grew in that period compared to us.
Fuck you are stupid and not even attempting to argue the point. -
Not to mention that Hondo fucks a little strawman ass and doesn't refute a fucking word I said. There population growth compared to ours has nothing to do with what I said Kunt. India is poised to become the 5th largest economy in the world and will over take Germany for the 4th spot if they maintain their growth which has been averaging 7% a year.2001400ex said:
They also have 3 times the population yet 1/8 the GDP.SFGbob said:
30 years later and they've moved as many people out of poverty as there are currently living in the US.2001400ex said:
So 30 years later they just need more tim to get their guys in there.SFGbob said:Indian was a socialist country far longer than it's been a capitalist economy and any improvements in the quality of life and the Indian economy have all come since they've rejected Socialism.
Check out the nearly flat-line GDP under Hondo's Socialism and then compare it to free market capitalism. That's the kind of economic vitality Hondo wants for the US.
source: tradingeconomics.com
Not to mention you lack context of how much their population grew in that period compared to us.
Fuck you are stupid and not even attempting to argue the point.
They were a fucking economic basket case with anemic growth during almost the entire period when they were under Socialism. They never had growth anywhere near what they've been enjoying the last 15 years.
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Context
A tell when hondo gets his ass handed to him -
You struggle with context too. Walls work!!!! Revenues went up!!!!!RaceBannon said:Context
A tell when hondo gets his ass handed to him -
Walls do work. The goal of a wall isn't to keep everyone out forever. The goal of a wall is to slow people who are trying to illegally enter this country so they can be apprehended.2001400ex said:
You struggle with context too. Walls work!!!! Revenues went up!!!!!RaceBannon said:Context
A tell when hondo gets his ass handed to him
The Walls in San Diego and El Paso definitely work and there isn't a person working for the Border Patrol who will say otherwise.
Now tell us again how the annual 7% growth in GDP that India has had over the last 15 years is really bad for them and that they'd be better off with Socialism Hondo.
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Where did I say they'd be better off with socialism fuckstick. I said they are close to the Damone libertarian Paradise and it's a shit hole. Just like we'd be if we went full libertarian.SFGbob said:
Walls do work. The goal of a wall isn't to keep everyone out forever. The goal of a wall is to slow people who are trying to illegally enter this country so they can be apprehended.2001400ex said:
You struggle with context too. Walls work!!!! Revenues went up!!!!!RaceBannon said:Context
A tell when hondo gets his ass handed to him
The Walls in San Diego and El Paso definitely work and there isn't a person working for the Border Patrol who will say otherwise.
Now tell us again how the annual 7% growth in GDP that India has had over the last 15 years is really bad for them and that they'd be better off with Socialism Hondo.
Shut the fuck up and let the adults talk. Butt in when you can comprehend a point for once. -
Those are called facts, something you remain unfamiliar with2001400ex said:
You struggle with context too. Walls work!!!! Revenues went up!!!!!RaceBannon said:Context
A tell when hondo gets his ass handed to him -
But they aren't a libertarian country. So you're either lying again or you have your head up your ass like you do with your claim about the Green New Deal document being photoshopped.2001400ex said:
Where did I say they'd be better off with socialism fuckstick. I said they are close to the Damone libertarian Paradise and it's a shit hole. Just like we'd be if we went full libertarian.SFGbob said:
Walls do work. The goal of a wall isn't to keep everyone out forever. The goal of a wall is to slow people who are trying to illegally enter this country so they can be apprehended.2001400ex said:
You struggle with context too. Walls work!!!! Revenues went up!!!!!RaceBannon said:Context
A tell when hondo gets his ass handed to him
The Walls in San Diego and El Paso definitely work and there isn't a person working for the Border Patrol who will say otherwise.
Now tell us again how the annual 7% growth in GDP that India has had over the last 15 years is really bad for them and that they'd be better off with Socialism Hondo.
Shut the fuck up and let the adults talk. Butt in when you can comprehend a point for once. -
Yes.2001400ex said:
But you have the same hate for Republicans for adding to the debt as you do Obama.SFGbob said:
Hey Kunt, did you hear me talking about how Republicans “kinda” cut spending?2001400ex said:
Republicans did great job in cutting spending for the 18 budget.SFGbob said:Hondo the stupid Kunt believes that if you start putting an additional $100k a year on your credit cards and then you reduce it to $70k a year you’ve “cut” your spending.
And here I didn’t think you could get that dick any further down your throat
I don’t enjoy lying and swallowing like a bitch Hondo, you do.
Now fuck off.
*apologies to @MikeDamone. I hadn't clicked through to the next page yet -
'Murica circa 1776-1913 would like their history back.allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
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No shit.pawz said:
'Murica circa 1776-1913 would like their history back.allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country. -
And if not for a shift to a hybrid liberty socialist system we? could have fallen into revolution like so much of the world did. The early days of the Industrial Revolution were tough on the working man and there wasn't a lot of liberty.pawz said:
'Murica circa 1776-1913 would like their history back.allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
Too many lineal thinkers here and now we are going to waste years on more socialist or capitalist crap instead of fine tuning our institutions and making things like healthcare delivery better not worse. Despite what you have heard the profit motive in an educated society does make corporations have to act responsibly and clean up the air and the water and continue to make the carbon molecule the miracle it is. Our GDP and innovation lead the way in cleaner tech and better tech.
We won't colonize space on a train in case anyone was wondering
Let's cut the bullshit and make the greatest country on earth even greater!
Bannon 2024 -
We didn't really start moving toward a Socialist system until the 1930s. Not sure how you can say that libertarian America wasn't about Liberty. We had a government that was set up to govern a mostly agrarian country. There was a hell of lot of liberty and little if any influence of the Federal government. You could have gone your entire life in America and but for the mail system, never had any dealing at all with the Federal Government and you could have done that even as a major business owner.RaceBannon said:
And if not for a shift to a hybrid liberty socialist system we? could have fallen into revolution like so much of the world did. The early days of the Industrial Revolution were tough on the working man and there wasn't a lot of liberty.pawz said:
'Murica circa 1776-1913 would like their history back.allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
Too many lineal thinkers here and now we are going to waste years on more socialist or capitalist crap instead of fine tuning our institutions and making things like healthcare delivery better not worse. Despite what you have heard the profit motive in an educated society does make corporations have to act responsibly and clean up the air and the water and continue to make the carbon molecule the miracle it is. Our GDP and innovation lead the way in cleaner tech and better tech.
We won't colonize space on a train in case anyone was wondering
Let's cut the bullshit and make the greatest country on earth even greater!
Bannon 2024
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That'st true on the farm but I referenced the Industrial Revolution and the move to the cites after the Civil War. If you were working 12 hour days 6 or 7 days a week to live you weren't basking in liberty. Its what brought about unions and federal interventionSFGbob said:
We didn't really start moving toward a Socialist system until the 1930s. Not sure how you can say that libertarian America wasn't about Liberty. We had a government that was set up to govern a mostly agrarian country. There was a hell of lot of liberty and little if any influence of the Federal government. You could have gone your entire life in America and but for the mail system, never had any dealing at all with the Federal Government and you could have done that even as a major business owner.RaceBannon said:
And if not for a shift to a hybrid liberty socialist system we? could have fallen into revolution like so much of the world did. The early days of the Industrial Revolution were tough on the working man and there wasn't a lot of liberty.pawz said:
'Murica circa 1776-1913 would like their history back.allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
Too many lineal thinkers here and now we are going to waste years on more socialist or capitalist crap instead of fine tuning our institutions and making things like healthcare delivery better not worse. Despite what you have heard the profit motive in an educated society does make corporations have to act responsibly and clean up the air and the water and continue to make the carbon molecule the miracle it is. Our GDP and innovation lead the way in cleaner tech and better tech.
We won't colonize space on a train in case anyone was wondering
Let's cut the bullshit and make the greatest country on earth even greater!
Bannon 2024
The ownership of an industry was seen as an absolute right to run it however you wanted. I think that may have been needed to build those industries but as time went by the conditions bred the grounds for the unions and the socialists. Not a big union guy but back then probably would have been
I'm not as conservative as you or as libertarian as Damone. But I got no where else to go. Its why I didn't have a problem with Trump when you did. I didn't mind an old school democrat.
I think we went to far in the 30's and it haunts us to this day but I think we had to start down that road -
Yeah, it was great. Especially for women, black people and everyone that died in the Civil War. A true symbol of what libertarianism can accomplish.SFGbob said:
We didn't really start moving toward a Socialist system until the 1930s. Not sure how you can say that libertarian America wasn't about Liberty. We had a government that was set up to govern a mostly agrarian country. There was a hell of lot of liberty and little if any influence of the Federal government. You could have gone your entire life in America and but for the mail system, never had any dealing at all with the Federal Government and you could have done that even as a major business owner.RaceBannon said:
And if not for a shift to a hybrid liberty socialist system we? could have fallen into revolution like so much of the world did. The early days of the Industrial Revolution were tough on the working man and there wasn't a lot of liberty.pawz said:
'Murica circa 1776-1913 would like their history back.allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
Too many lineal thinkers here and now we are going to waste years on more socialist or capitalist crap instead of fine tuning our institutions and making things like healthcare delivery better not worse. Despite what you have heard the profit motive in an educated society does make corporations have to act responsibly and clean up the air and the water and continue to make the carbon molecule the miracle it is. Our GDP and innovation lead the way in cleaner tech and better tech.
We won't colonize space on a train in case anyone was wondering
Let's cut the bullshit and make the greatest country on earth even greater!
Bannon 2024 -
There is room for collective bargaining even in a capitalistic system but as you can see now, the only growth in unionization these days is coming from Government employees and most employers don't need a union in order to be compelled to treat their workers better. There is a place for the Federal Government in the system I envision. People worked 12 hours a day, six days a week because that was the norm. That's no longer the case. You can credit the Federal government for that if you like but I'd like to believe we'd have moved in that direction anyway. Ford didn't need the Federal government to tell him to increase the pay of his workers. He realized it was good business and did it on his own.
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Ford who?
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Whiteyallpurpleallgold said:Ford who?
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I don't know if the Feds get the credit for the work week or the workers. Probably the workers
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No doubt it was in response to pressure by his employees, who were not unionized at the time, but "Whitey" also introduced a 5 day a week, 40 hour work week back in the 1920s.RaceBannon said:I don't know if the Feds get the credit for the work week or the workers. Probably the workers
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Hondo, we've been over this, India is a prime example of the failings of democratic socialism. The license Raj was, and still partly is, what holds India's economy back. It isn't a failed libertarian or liberal or capitalist state. It's a failed socialist state that improved once it embraced liberalism. Kind of like every other socialist economy.
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He was smart enough to want them to be able to buy his cars. That's how a consumer society prospers. Work hard play hard innovateSFGbob said:
No doubt it was in response to pressure by his employees, who were not unionized at the time, but "Whitey" also introduced a 5 day a week, 40 hour work week back in the 1920s.RaceBannon said:I don't know if the Feds get the credit for the work week or the workers. Probably the workers
He held out the longest against the unions. I worked for a family business in Seattle for years. A Union rep told me in 1982 his mission in life was to make our installers union.
He was a failure at life because our subs made more than union guys by a large margin. They traded "security" which is a mirage, for money. -
Working is a tough gig if you're only able to sell your low or semi-skilled labor. Millions of illegals and low skilled immigrants in general haven't helped with that situation. But for a year of my working life I've only worked on the West Coast, so my perspective may not be the norm, and since college I've only worked in LA and SF. I've never been treated poorly by an employer and the one time I did feel like I was being underpaid, I found a new job and quit.
Hell, in all honesty, I'm overpaid and over compensated now and I've never been a member of a union. -
RaceBannon said:
That'st true on the farm but I referenced the Industrial Revolution and the move to the cites after the Civil War. If you were working 12 hour days 6 or 7 days a week to live you weren't basking in liberty. Its what brought about unions and federal interventionSFGbob said:
We didn't really start moving toward a Socialist system until the 1930s. Not sure how you can say that libertarian America wasn't about Liberty. We had a government that was set up to govern a mostly agrarian country. There was a hell of lot of liberty and little if any influence of the Federal government. You could have gone your entire life in America and but for the mail system, never had any dealing at all with the Federal Government and you could have done that even as a major business owner.RaceBannon said:
And if not for a shift to a hybrid liberty socialist system we? could have fallen into revolution like so much of the world did. The early days of the Industrial Revolution were tough on the working man and there wasn't a lot of liberty.pawz said:
'Murica circa 1776-1913 would like their history back.allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
Too many lineal thinkers here and now we are going to waste years on more socialist or capitalist crap instead of fine tuning our institutions and making things like healthcare delivery better not worse. Despite what you have heard the profit motive in an educated society does make corporations have to act responsibly and clean up the air and the water and continue to make the carbon molecule the miracle it is. Our GDP and innovation lead the way in cleaner tech and better tech.
We won't colonize space on a train in case anyone was wondering
Let's cut the bullshit and make the greatest country on earth even greater!
Bannon 2024
The ownership of an industry was seen as an absolute right to run it however you wanted. I think that may have been needed to build those industries but as time went by the conditions bred the grounds for the unions and the socialists. Not a big union guy but back then probably would have been
I'm not as conservative as you or as libertarian as Damone. But I got no where else to go. Its why I didn't have a problem with Trump when you did. I didn't mind an old school democrat.
I think we went to far in the 30's and it haunts us to this day but I think we had to start down that road
This is actually more my wheel house as described here. However I find myself fighting for Damone's libertarian ideal as a necessary counter to APAG's socialist utopia and HondoFS's deep throat establishment agenda. In either case, there are groups usurping too much power over the individual - stifling real innovation, freedom and liberty.
I think an old school democrat is today's center pragmatist.
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Old School Democrat is really a Trump Republican if you think about it. Trump has far more in common with JFK politically than does anyone currently leading the Rat party.pawz said:RaceBannon said:
That'st true on the farm but I referenced the Industrial Revolution and the move to the cites after the Civil War. If you were working 12 hour days 6 or 7 days a week to live you weren't basking in liberty. Its what brought about unions and federal interventionSFGbob said:
We didn't really start moving toward a Socialist system until the 1930s. Not sure how you can say that libertarian America wasn't about Liberty. We had a government that was set up to govern a mostly agrarian country. There was a hell of lot of liberty and little if any influence of the Federal government. You could have gone your entire life in America and but for the mail system, never had any dealing at all with the Federal Government and you could have done that even as a major business owner.RaceBannon said:
And if not for a shift to a hybrid liberty socialist system we? could have fallen into revolution like so much of the world did. The early days of the Industrial Revolution were tough on the working man and there wasn't a lot of liberty.pawz said:
'Murica circa 1776-1913 would like their history back.allpurpleallgold said:We’re willing to cut military spending and stop spending on endless wars.
We’ve proposed Medicare For All. Even the Koch brothers study has that saving Americans trillions of dollar.
Those are two of the big three and anyone that goes after Social Security just loses. All the right does is nip at the heels of the the alleged problem by cutting programs that help people.
I understand how simple and appealing libertarianism feels. But for all the hate socialism get for having never worked, no one has ever even bothered to try a libertarian country.
Too many lineal thinkers here and now we are going to waste years on more socialist or capitalist crap instead of fine tuning our institutions and making things like healthcare delivery better not worse. Despite what you have heard the profit motive in an educated society does make corporations have to act responsibly and clean up the air and the water and continue to make the carbon molecule the miracle it is. Our GDP and innovation lead the way in cleaner tech and better tech.
We won't colonize space on a train in case anyone was wondering
Let's cut the bullshit and make the greatest country on earth even greater!
Bannon 2024
The ownership of an industry was seen as an absolute right to run it however you wanted. I think that may have been needed to build those industries but as time went by the conditions bred the grounds for the unions and the socialists. Not a big union guy but back then probably would have been
I'm not as conservative as you or as libertarian as Damone. But I got no where else to go. Its why I didn't have a problem with Trump when you did. I didn't mind an old school democrat.
I think we went to far in the 30's and it haunts us to this day but I think we had to start down that road
This is actually more my wheel house as described here. However I find myself fighting for Damone's libertarian ideal as a necessary counter to APAG's socialist utopia and HondoFS's deep throat establishment dream. In either case, there are groups usurping too much power over the individual - stifling real innovation, freedom and liberty.
I think an old school democrat is today's center pragmatist.
