NBA Playoff Megathread
Comments
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I like my Jets this year. Goaltender is hot.
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Reggie Miller was cited as a HOF caliber player that Jordan had to go through to win a title. That was the only reason I called that out.RoadDawg55 said:
What in the world would make you have a sour taste about LeBron’s win over GS? He DOMINATED and completely took over.Tequilla said:Nothing irritates me in basketball discussions then this Lebron is greater than Jordan conversation.
What metrics suggest that that is true? Fully realizing that the game across eras evolves and whatnot. But for every person that doesn't like the whole "Jordan won more titles and was 6-0 in Finals" argument you then get the whole stat argument for Lebron and whatnot.
What I see in LeBron is that he's a genetic freak that the manner in which the game is being called today really helps him out and plays to all of his strengths. Throughout the history of the game, the only players that I would put in that category are Wilt and Shaq. I was watching a recent play where LBJ put his head down running into the lane, found the chest of Sabonis (who was in decent guarding position), ran him over, and got the And 1. Regardless of how the game is called today, at best 20-30 years ago that isn't called a foul and at worst that's an offensive foul. All of the extra steps that LBJ takes, etc. would never have worked if he was dropped into MJ's era. Moreover, with how the game was more physical, the ability to put hands on the offensive player and keep him outside of the paint would have caused some barriers that he currently doesn't face.
But to be an all-time great, the intangibles come into play. Jordan's playoff career was 6-0 in the Finals. In those series, the series never got past Game 6. The list of players that he beat in those Finals are a who's who of Hall of Famers including Magic, Worthy, Drexler, Barkley, GP, Malone and Stockton. Getting through the East required him getting through additional HOFers in Ewing, Thomas, Shaq, and Reggie Miller. He famously put up a 63 point game in the Playoffs against arguably the best team of all time in the '86 Celtics.
If you look at the playoff winning percentage in terms of both games and series between Jordan and LBJ, it mildly favors Jordan. From '86 to '90, Jordan's teams lost only to the Celtics and Pistons ... each of which went to at minimum the NBA Finals (3 of those 5 teams won the Title). The Bulls largely built the foundation of their team starting in the '88-'89 season. From that point forward, the only year that they failed to make the Conference Finals (at minimum) was the '95 season when Jordan came back late in the year from hissuspensionerr sabatical playing baseball. From '89 to '98, Jordan's playoff record was 29-3 and an overall record of 114-45. The comparable portion of LBJ's career would be when he moved to Miami and effectively became a partial GM as well. From that time period, LBJ is 102-44 with a series record of 24-4.
The reality is that Jordan's record in Conference Finals and NBA Finals is 12-2 vs LBJ's 11-6. If you want to be known as the best player, you have to have a consideration of what did they do against the best when the chips are on the table. 12-2 vs 11-6 is a MASSIVE difference at that level.
And when thinking about LBJ's 3 titles, the reality is that 2 of them fell into the fortunate category no matter how much you want to argue against it. Winning series in 6 or less like Jordan did leaves limited doubt. But the Ray Allen shot saved LBJ big time as @dnc pointed out. The 3-1 comeback against the Warriors was fortunate because of Draymond's meltdown in Game #4 when LBJ played him with a kick to the groin to get him the extra technical and suspension. Kudos to him for that. But the way that series played out was an unlikely title. They all count and I'm not trying to dispute that, but those 2 titles in particular leave a sour taste in my mouth when looking at how LBJ performed in those situations.
LBJ falls into the category to me where his physical greatness is undisputed. However, basketball is a game where the great players typically overcome. In his title defeats, he's lost to an in his prime Duncan/Parker/Ginobili and lost to an aging Duncan/Parker/Ginobili. He's lost to Dirk. He's lost to Curry/Thompson/Draymond and then to KD/Curry/Thompson/Draymond. The only players on that list that have a shot at being Top 10 of all time players are Duncan and KD. That list isn't necessarily any better or worse than what Jordan faced in terms of all-time greats.
Winning matters ... and LBJ just doesn't measure up for me. He's at the bottom end of the Top 5 of all time and safely in the Top 10. Should he lose tomorrow to Indiana that's another hit on his legacy in my mind. It's just hard for me to look at LBJ and not see Wilt ... physically dominate and superior but the results just never seem to match what you'd expect to see. LeBron SHOULD have far more championships than what he has if he really was the best to ever play the game. By and large, for as good as the game is right now, the only all-time caliber player that he's playing against in his prime is KD.
Reggie Miller? Gtfo with saying KD is he only all time caliber player. There are 10-20 guys right now that are better than Reggie Miller. Klay Thompson is as good as Reggie Miller. You actually think Stockton is as good as Steph Curry? Are you forgetting Garnett, Pierce, Wade, Dirk, and Duncan? Were the Jazz not also an aging team? There are great players in every era.
The Warriors are a tougher foe than anyone Jordan ever faced. It’s hard to call LeBron better because 6>3, but holy shit about some of your reasoning. You’re just throwing shit on the wall and hoping it sticks.
The Heat team that LBJ had with himself, DWade (Top 5 SG of all time), and Chris Bosh was as good as any foundation that Jordan had (Jordan, Pippen, Grant/Rodman).
And from a pure talent standpoint, LBJ + Irving >>> Curry + Thompson
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Jordans teams were all time as well. Lebron has carried every second of every fucking teams he’s been on minus 1 shot by Ray Allen.Tequilla said:Nothing irritates me in basketball discussions then this Lebron is greater than Jordan conversation.
What metrics suggest that that is true? Fully realizing that the game across eras evolves and whatnot. But for every person that doesn't like the whole "Jordan won more titles and was 6-0 in Finals" argument you then get the whole stat argument for Lebron and whatnot.
What I see in LeBron is that he's a genetic freak that the manner in which the game is being called today really helps him out and plays to all of his strengths. Throughout the history of the game, the only players that I would put in that category are Wilt and Shaq. I was watching a recent play where LBJ put his head down running into the lane, found the chest of Sabonis (who was in decent guarding position), ran him over, and got the And 1. Regardless of how the game is called today, at best 20-30 years ago that isn't called a foul and at worst that's an offensive foul. All of the extra steps that LBJ takes, etc. would never have worked if he was dropped into MJ's era. Moreover, with how the game was more physical, the ability to put hands on the offensive player and keep him outside of the paint would have caused some barriers that he currently doesn't face.
But to be an all-time great, the intangibles come into play. Jordan's playoff career was 6-0 in the Finals. In those series, the series never got past Game 6. The list of players that he beat in those Finals are a who's who of Hall of Famers including Magic, Worthy, Drexler, Barkley, GP, Malone and Stockton. Getting through the East required him getting through additional HOFers in Ewing, Thomas, Shaq, and Reggie Miller. He famously put up a 63 point game in the Playoffs against arguably the best team of all time in the '86 Celtics.
If you look at the playoff winning percentage in terms of both games and series between Jordan and LBJ, it mildly favors Jordan. From '86 to '90, Jordan's teams lost only to the Celtics and Pistons ... each of which went to at minimum the NBA Finals (3 of those 5 teams won the Title). The Bulls largely built the foundation of their team starting in the '88-'89 season. From that point forward, the only year that they failed to make the Conference Finals (at minimum) was the '95 season when Jordan came back late in the year from hissuspensionerr sabatical playing baseball. From '89 to '98, Jordan's playoff record was 29-3 and an overall record of 114-45. The comparable portion of LBJ's career would be when he moved to Miami and effectively became a partial GM as well. From that time period, LBJ is 102-44 with a series record of 24-4.
The reality is that Jordan's record in Conference Finals and NBA Finals is 12-2 vs LBJ's 11-6. If you want to be known as the best player, you have to have a consideration of what did they do against the best when the chips are on the table. 12-2 vs 11-6 is a MASSIVE difference at that level.
And when thinking about LBJ's 3 titles, the reality is that 2 of them fell into the fortunate category no matter how much you want to argue against it. Winning series in 6 or less like Jordan did leaves limited doubt. But the Ray Allen shot saved LBJ big time as @dnc pointed out. The 3-1 comeback against the Warriors was fortunate because of Draymond's meltdown in Game #4 when LBJ played him with a kick to the groin to get him the extra technical and suspension. Kudos to him for that. But the way that series played out was an unlikely title. They all count and I'm not trying to dispute that, but those 2 titles in particular leave a sour taste in my mouth when looking at how LBJ performed in those situations.
LBJ falls into the category to me where his physical greatness is undisputed. However, basketball is a game where the great players typically overcome. In his title defeats, he's lost to an in his prime Duncan/Parker/Ginobili and lost to an aging Duncan/Parker/Ginobili. He's lost to Dirk. He's lost to Curry/Thompson/Draymond and then to KD/Curry/Thompson/Draymond. The only players on that list that have a shot at being Top 10 of all time players are Duncan and KD. That list isn't necessarily any better or worse than what Jordan faced in terms of all-time greats.
Winning matters ... and LBJ just doesn't measure up for me. He's at the bottom end of the Top 5 of all time and safely in the Top 10. Should he lose tomorrow to Indiana that's another hit on his legacy in my mind. It's just hard for me to look at LBJ and not see Wilt ... physically dominate and superior but the results just never seem to match what you'd expect to see. LeBron SHOULD have far more championships than what he has if he really was the best to ever play the game. By and large, for as good as the game is right now, the only all-time caliber player that he's playing against in his prime is KD.
STFU you buthurt lonely stupid faggit -
Da fuq? Other than Pippen, who was "all-time" on the Bulls? BJ Armstrong? Horace Grant? Bill Cartwright? Luc FUCKING Longley?!? Tony Kukoc? Maybe Rodman. Maybe.
Lebron has had DWade, Ray Allen, Kyrie Irving. He gets ZERO titles without those guys. To say he 'carried' those teams is utter bullshit.
https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/proof-that-lebron-james-had-better-teammates-than-michael-jordan-052717
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Other than that top 25 all-time player Pippin, who did Jordan have guys????????????????????????
How did Jordan do without Pippin? Here's a fun one, compare that with what Pippin did without Jordan.
Can we ship btp and throbber out on the next short bus? -
DWade ranks as high (if not higher) than Pippen on the all time player list
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MJ never won the Stanley Cup. People forget that.
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What exactly did Pippen do without Jordan? Can’t wait to hear that one
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For starters, you impotent toad, Pippen won 3 playoff series to Jordan's 0 without the other. Suck on that for a little bit before you double down on your idiocy. I'll await your 25 paragraph response.Tequilla said:What exactly did Pippen do without Jordan? Can’t wait to hear that one
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People forget that Jordan never had to face peak Olajuwon in the Finals because he was suspended for gambling.
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This has gotten stupid. MJ and Lebron both had a ton of help. Doesn’t take away from their greatness.
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"Despite being underdogs to the heavily-favored Warriors in round two, he believes the Pels are going to shock some folks. "We know we can beat them. We've done it in the regular season, and we've been in every game that we've lost," Davis said. "We know we're a good matchup against these guys and we've got a lot of confidence in ourselves.""
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Regular Season and Playoffs are different animals
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This is like when Tequilla talks about Oregon getting hammered. Such a biased piece of shit his drivel isn’t even worth reading...
What did Pippen do without Jordan? Lol, you know nothing about the nba. -
Seriously, what did he do without Jordan?haie said:This is like when Tequilla talks about Oregon getting hammered. Such a biased piece of shit his drivel isn’t even worth reading...
What did Pippen do without Jordan? Lol, you know nothing about the nba.
Lost in the 2nd round to New York in '94.
Part of one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA Playoff history with Portland in '00 blowing a 15 point 4th quarter lead to the Lakers ... after that his Blazers team did NOTHING the rest of his career there.
Let's be 100% clear here ... the Bulls with Jordan in '94 win another title. Without Jordan, they lost in the 2nd round. With Jordan (full seasons) they won 6 straight titles with only 2 of their 24 series during that time period went the distance.
Jordan's dominance is only compared in the history of the NBA to what Bill Russell accomplished.
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Tequilla said:
Seriously, what did he do without Jordan?haie said:This is like when Tequilla talks about Oregon getting hammered. Such a biased piece of shit his drivel isn’t even worth reading...
What did Pippen do without Jordan? Lol, you know nothing about the nba.
Lost in the 2nd round to New York in '94.
Part of one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA Playoff history with Portland in '00 blowing a 15 point 4th quarter lead to the Lakers ... after that his Blazers team did NOTHING the rest of his career there.
Let's be 100% clear here ... the Bulls with Jordan in '94 win another title. Without Jordan, they lost in the 2nd round. With Jordan (full seasons) they won 6 straight titles with only 2 of their 24 series during that time period went the distance.
Jordan's dominance is only compared in the history of the NBA to what Bill Russell accomplished.
https://youtu.be/rZbEEj2w8Zk -
Akeem only played in the NBA for two seasons?BleachedAnusDawg said:Tequilla said:
Seriously, what did he do without Jordan?haie said:This is like when Tequilla talks about Oregon getting hammered. Such a biased piece of shit his drivel isn’t even worth reading...
What did Pippen do without Jordan? Lol, you know nothing about the nba.
Lost in the 2nd round to New York in '94.
Part of one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA Playoff history with Portland in '00 blowing a 15 point 4th quarter lead to the Lakers ... after that his Blazers team did NOTHING the rest of his career there.
Let's be 100% clear here ... the Bulls with Jordan in '94 win another title. Without Jordan, they lost in the 2nd round. With Jordan (full seasons) they won 6 straight titles with only 2 of their 24 series during that time period went the distance.
Jordan's dominance is only compared in the history of the NBA to what Bill Russell accomplished.https://youtu.be/rZbEEj2w8Zk
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And Mario Elie was going to slow down Jordan? We already know how Drexler on Jordan played out.
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Today's LBJ vs Jordan stat of the day ...
Number of Series Lost When Having Home Court Advantage:
LBJ = 3
Jordan = 0 -
The point is that video is food for thought. 4 straight years of making runs to the Finals and playing a very good Rockets team would not have been a gimme for Jordan. This is where credit is due to LeBron. Staying power greater than anyone in history.Tequilla said:And Mario Elie was going to slow down Jordan? We already know how Drexler on Jordan played out.
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I'll give LBJ credit for making it to a number of different Finals ... that being said he's also benefiting from greater nutrition, therapy, etc. knowledge than what was in place 25-30 years ago. One thing that I think needs to be said about LBJ with respect to his "staying power" is that he's often used the regular season to rest and cover some of the energy needed for these long seasons. In his 15 year NBA career, he's played 78 or more games in a season only 7 times. In contrast, Jordan did so 11 of his 13 seasons with the Bulls (only times he didn't was when he broke his foot early in his career and when he came back mid-season in '95) as well as playing 82 games at the age of 39 playing 37 minutes per night.BleachedAnusDawg said:
The point is that video is food for thought. 4 straight years of making runs to the Finals and playing a very good Rockets team would not have been a gimme for Jordan. This is where credit is due to LeBron. Staying power greater than anyone in history.Tequilla said:And Mario Elie was going to slow down Jordan? We already know how Drexler on Jordan played out.
I would have loved to see Jordan's Bulls play against peak Hakeem ... there's no question that that would have been the most difficult challenge for the Bulls. That being said, how many times did Jordan's Bulls beat Ewing in the Playoffs? We all remember aging Ewing but a lot of those battles against New York came relatively earlier in Ewing's career before his knees really started going down south.
Honestly, the only thing that could stop Jordan was if you took his supporting crew out of the picture. The supporting cast wasn't quite ready for prime time in those early series with Detroit. Once they got there you couldn't stop Jordan.
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^ benefitting from greater nutrition. LOL
Just shut the fuck up already -
Players today have significant advantages off the court today ... that's not opinion that's fact.haie said:^ benefitting from greater nutrition. LOL
Just shut the fuck up already
I can only imagine hearing LBJ talk about how difficult it was flying Coach like NBA players had to do 30+ years ago.
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This is the kind of low-rent, extreme double-standard hypocrisy that drives me up the fucking wall. I'm done talking about this.Tequilla said:BleachedAnusDawg said:
The point is that video is food for thought. 4 straight years of making runs to the Finals and playing a very good Rockets team would not have been a gimme for Jordan. This is where credit is due to LeBron. Staying power greater than anyone in history.Tequilla said:And Mario Elie was going to slow down Jordan? We already know how Drexler on Jordan played out.
Honestly, the only thing that could stop Jordan was if you took his supporting crew out of the picture. The supporting cast wasn't quite ready for prime time in those early series with Detroit. Once they got there you couldn't stop Jordan. -
It's like you took some ~2009ish Kobe fanboy, beat him in the head with a brick until he was functionally retarded, waterboarded him 500 times, castrated him, and then asked him his opinion on LeBron. I find it hard to believe people are this stupid. And I'm a Tequilla fan when he isn't talking about basketball but holy shit. You've lost me permanently. Maybe stop while you're behind.Tequilla said:
I'll give LBJ credit for making it to a number of different Finals ... that being said he's also benefiting from greater nutrition, therapy, etc. knowledge than what was in place 25-30 years ago. One thing that I think needs to be said about LBJ with respect to his "staying power" is that he's often used the regular season to rest and cover some of the energy needed for these long seasons. In his 15 year NBA career, he's played 78 or more games in a season only 7 times. In contrast, Jordan did so 11 of his 13 seasons with the Bulls (only times he didn't was when he broke his foot early in his career and when he came back mid-season in '95) as well as playing 82 games at the age of 39 playing 37 minutes per night.BleachedAnusDawg said:
The point is that video is food for thought. 4 straight years of making runs to the Finals and playing a very good Rockets team would not have been a gimme for Jordan. This is where credit is due to LeBron. Staying power greater than anyone in history.Tequilla said:And Mario Elie was going to slow down Jordan? We already know how Drexler on Jordan played out.
I would have loved to see Jordan's Bulls play against peak Hakeem ... there's no question that that would have been the most difficult challenge for the Bulls. That being said, how many times did Jordan's Bulls beat Ewing in the Playoffs? We all remember aging Ewing but a lot of those battles against New York came relatively earlier in Ewing's career before his knees really started going down south.
Honestly, the only thing that could stop Jordan was if you took his supporting crew out of the picture. The supporting cast wasn't quite ready for prime time in those early series with Detroit. Once they got there you couldn't stop Jordan. -
10:00 left
James has cramps. His team is flailing its own poo around. Game is stressful af to watch lol -
Basketball is a team sport or something.
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I'm pro Jordan in this debate but most pro Jordan arguments in this thread are painfully bad.
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Adam Silver made the call to the refs when Oladipo was starting the comeback.
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Jesus fuck the refs made that game hard to watch
