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Everyone just forgets about Kawhi
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So this is where I take issue with people talking about this or that when evaluating top players ...RoadDawg55 said:
Green and Thompson both are overrated. I don't mean that as a slight either.dnc said:Thompson is better than Curry!
Green is a very good passer, but the reason he gets so many assists are the players he is passing to.
He shoots wide open shots. Great defender, but good offense always wins at the highest level.
He's not even close to being as good as Anthony Davis. Would any of you seriously start a team with him over John Wall? He's top 20, but top 10 is a huge stretch.
I would take Isaiah and Irving over Klay. Obviously a great shooter and scorer. Not a bad defender. He doesn't rebound and can't pass. Borderline top 20.
We (as a basketball observing public) IMO put too much weight on individual skill as a sign of ability. This idea that if you can't score 1 on 1 that you are some kind of lesser player is comical to me. A guy that is a threat as a catch/shoot player running off screens, etc. can put as much pressure on the defense as a guy that penetrates into the lane. It's not one or the other.
With regard to Draymond, I absolutely agree with you 100% that scoring is his weakness. He's an elite defender and for his size/position he's an elite playmaker. For better/worse given the team that he has he's not asked to be a scorer outside of taking advantage of the offense with either open shots, getting to the basket with blow by mismatches, or through offensive rebounding. Compared to a guy like Anthony Davis ... he's obviously not the scorer that Davis is ... but is Davis the defender/passer that Green is? Are the Warriors a better team with Davis than Green? And I love Davis ... and there's no question that they are different players ... but I also don't think it's a coincidence that the Warriors really took off when Green started getting more minutes.
As for Thompson, he's a 25 point per game scorer on a team where he's a higher end option. As is, he's a 22 point per game scorer as the #3 option on an elite team. On top of that, he's a very strong perimeter defender. He's far from an elite passer but the threat of him as a shooter keeps the space open on offense. The threat of elite outside shooting is as much of an offensive weapon as anything ... whether you make or not. The defense's desire to run guys off the line compromises the defense so quickly.
Would I start a team with Thompson or Green over Davis or Wall? Probably not if I'm looking at any of those guys being my #1 player. But is the definition of best players in the league simply the order of guys you'd take if you were starting a team? -
They won't lose ... and they won't leave.RoadDawg55 said:
They have already talked about how they are supposed to hate each other but don't. They both are free agents after this year, unlike the Heat. LeBron and Wade are actually friends.dnc said:
I kind of doubt it. The Heat lost there* first year with the big three. I think Curry and Durant would come back for one more go.RoadDawg55 said:
If they lose, Curry or Durant (most likely) will leave. The implosion will be beautiful.dnc said:I'm pro Durant, but this is pretty great
If they don't win a ring by next June, it will definitely implode.
Their real employers are Under Armour and Nike. If they want them to leave, they will.
The Warriors aren't a perfect team ... but they aren't that far away from being one. -
All those are good poonts, and I don't think they're loosering so it will be moot, but if they do I still think they give it another shot.RoadDawg55 said:
They have already talked about how they are supposed to hate each other but don't. They both are free agents after this year, unlike the Heat. LeBron and Wade are actually friends.dnc said:
I kind of doubt it. The Heat lost there* first year with the big three. I think Curry and Durant would come back for one more go.RoadDawg55 said:
If they lose, Curry or Durant (most likely) will leave. The implosion will be beautiful.dnc said:I'm pro Durant, but this is pretty great
If they don't win a ring by next June, it will definitely implode.
Their real employers are Under Armour and Nike. If they want them to leave, they will. -
Murray has some balls
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Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
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Curry was a monster in the third, Durant has been unstoppable in the fourth.
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Spurs can't defend the Warriors without Kawhi. I think his ankle injury is going to be hard to overcome this series.
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How can a former all star like Aldridge get this rattled? What a bitch.
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I thought picking him up was huge for San Antonio - felt like the Lakers picking up Pau. Dude who can't carry a team but would be a really strong #2. I'm shocked how far he's fallen off. That said he's been pretty good the last game and three plus quarters.RoadDawg55 said:How can a former all star like Aldridge get this rattled? What a bitch.
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Not top 10 in the league.CuntWaffle said: -
There should be more time on the clock after that foul
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Warriors got lucky thanks to the Kawhi injury but good teams take advantage of opportunities. If he's out game two the Warriors will roll. These ain't the Rockets.
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I think the Spurs continue to play them tough. Today was a huge loss though.dnc said:Warriors got lucky thanks to the Kawhi injury but good teams take advantage of opportunities. If he's out game two the Warriors will roll. These ain't the Rockets.
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I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it. -
Kawhi couldn't shoot when he got to the league either.Tequilla said:
I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it. -
Pretty much this ...dnc said:
I thought picking him up was huge for San Antonio - felt like the Lakers picking up Pau. Dude who can't carry a team but would be a really strong #2. I'm shocked how far he's fallen off. That said he's been pretty good the last game and three plus quarters.RoadDawg55 said:How can a former all star like Aldridge get this rattled? What a bitch.
When Leonard was there with Aldridge ... it was a very lethal combination in the 1st half.
But Aldridge can't carry a team by himself ... and that was pretty evident after Leonard got hurt again. -
Without Leonard, the Spurs can't score with the Warriors. That's the fundamental problem for them.RoadDawg55 said:
I think the Spurs continue to play them tough. Today was a huge loss though.dnc said:Warriors got lucky thanks to the Kawhi injury but good teams take advantage of opportunities. If he's out game two the Warriors will roll. These ain't the Rockets.
With Leonard, he's able to create enough in the lane to cause problems and be able to at least consider locking up somebody defensively enough to make the defense significantly better. Take him out defensively and then everything opens up.
I'd be shocked if he was worth a damn in Game 2 and played ... I can see the Spurs maybe getting a game at home (and with the schedule it probably gets Leonard back for Games 3-4) ... but I'd be shocked at this point if this series went past 5 games. If the Spurs could have hung on today, they could have rested Leonard in Game 2, got their split at home, and then taken their chances with a 3 game series. Now, they'll dig themselves too big of a hole to get out from. -
Night and day difference ...CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi couldn't shoot when he got to the league either.Tequilla said:
I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it.
If I'm betting I think Murray will make it ... he could be the next version of Parker for them. But he's got to be able to at minimum get to the point where that mid-range jumper becomes close to automatic for him or teams are just going to give him anything he wants outside of the lane. -
The Warriors weren't likely to win the game if Leonard didn't get hurt but you could see how they started the 3rd quarter that they were going to give a good solid run the rest of the way as it was.dnc said:Warriors got lucky thanks to the Kawhi injury but good teams take advantage of opportunities. If he's out game two the Warriors will roll. These ain't the Rockets.
Good chance Game #2 is a blitzing. -
Kawhi had about a 3% better FG% in college but about 4% worse 3 than Dejounte. That is not "night and day difference".Tequilla said:
Night and day difference ...CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi couldn't shoot when he got to the league either.Tequilla said:
I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it.
If I'm betting I think Murray will make it ... he could be the next version of Parker for them. But he's got to be able to at minimum get to the point where that mid-range jumper becomes close to automatic for him or teams are just going to give him anything he wants outside of the lane. -
Kawhi has improved tremendously ... but at the same time, I had a very high opinion of him going into his NBA career. You could tell he was a winner in college and would put in the work necessary to become a solid NBA player.CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi had about a 3% better FG% in college but about 4% worse 3 than Dejounte. That is not "night and day difference".Tequilla said:
Night and day difference ...CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi couldn't shoot when he got to the league either.Tequilla said:
I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it.
If I'm betting I think Murray will make it ... he could be the next version of Parker for them. But he's got to be able to at minimum get to the point where that mid-range jumper becomes close to automatic for him or teams are just going to give him anything he wants outside of the lane.
Like I said, I'd be willing to say that Murray will get there ... but to say he's anywhere close to where Leonard was coming out of college and into the NBA ... just not the fact. -
Murray's also the same age as Leonard was a sophomore in college. By that token he's a far better three point shooter than Leonard was at the same stage.Tequilla said:
Kawhi has improved tremendously ... but at the same time, I had a very high opinion of him going into his NBA career. You could tell he was a winner in college and would put in the work necessary to become a solid NBA player.CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi had about a 3% better FG% in college but about 4% worse 3 than Dejounte. That is not "night and day difference".Tequilla said:
Night and day difference ...CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi couldn't shoot when he got to the league either.Tequilla said:
I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it.
If I'm betting I think Murray will make it ... he could be the next version of Parker for them. But he's got to be able to at minimum get to the point where that mid-range jumper becomes close to automatic for him or teams are just going to give him anything he wants outside of the lane.
Like I said, I'd be willing to say that Murray will get there ... but to say he's anywhere close to where Leonard was coming out of college and into the NBA ... just not the fact.
The idea that rookie Leonard was a night and day better shooter than Murray is false.
Murray will probably never be the defender that rookie Leonard was but most won't. -
I didn't even argue that. All I said was that Kawhi didn't have a jumper either out of college to show that it is something Dejounte can improve.Tequilla said:
Kawhi has improved tremendously ... but at the same time, I had a very high opinion of him going into his NBA career. You could tell he was a winner in college and would put in the work necessary to become a solid NBA player.CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi had about a 3% better FG% in college but about 4% worse 3 than Dejounte. That is not "night and day difference".Tequilla said:
Night and day difference ...CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi couldn't shoot when he got to the league either.Tequilla said:
I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it.
If I'm betting I think Murray will make it ... he could be the next version of Parker for them. But he's got to be able to at minimum get to the point where that mid-range jumper becomes close to automatic for him or teams are just going to give him anything he wants outside of the lane.
Like I said, I'd be willing to say that Murray will get there ... but to say he's anywhere close to where Leonard was coming out of college and into the NBA ... just not the fact.
All I said was that in a couple seasons they are going to be a very good back court, especially defensively with all their length. You put both of them on a flatbed for comparisons sake.
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I would be cautious about Murray's jumper. Some guys come into the league and improve their shooting, many don't. It's not always a hard work thing. Dwyane Wade is a good example. Never figured out how to shoot consistently, always been a hard worker. Even if he is a bitch.
That said, as long Pop is there and he does work hard, he should be good. Parker was never a threat from 3 but the Spurs made their offense work around that. -
By what measure is Murray a better shooter than Leonard was?dnc said:
Murray's also the same age as Leonard was a sophomore in college. By that token he's a far better three point shooter than Leonard was at the same stage.Tequilla said:
Kawhi has improved tremendously ... but at the same time, I had a very high opinion of him going into his NBA career. You could tell he was a winner in college and would put in the work necessary to become a solid NBA player.CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi had about a 3% better FG% in college but about 4% worse 3 than Dejounte. That is not "night and day difference".Tequilla said:
Night and day difference ...CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi couldn't shoot when he got to the league either.Tequilla said:
I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But43 he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it.
If I'm betting I think Murray will make it ... he could be the next version of Parker for them. But he's got to be able to at minimum get to the point where that mid-range jumper becomes close to automatic for him or teams are just going to give him anything he wants outside of the lane.
Like I said, I'd be willing to say that Murray will get there ... but to say he's anywhere close to where Leonard was coming out of college and into the NBA ... just not the fact.
The idea that rookie Leonard was a night and day better shooter than Murray is false.
Murray will probably never be the defender that rookie Leonard was but most won't.
He played 322 minutes as a rookie and shot 43% from the field ... are you basing this on the 22 3's he shot? How about the 44.6% he shot in the D-League this season? Or are you looking at the 41.6% from the field he shot in college ... largely because his jumper was broken and his shot selection was suspect (as it is for most young kids).
At least compared to a guy like Tony Wroten you can see that Murray actually looks like he cares about getting better ... it's why I'd bet on the fact that he'd make it.
But thinking that Murray's going to be anywhere close to Leonard is smoking some serious shit ... so very unlikely that Murray's going to be one of the Top 3-5 players in the league. -
What I said going back in this thread:CuntWaffle said:
I didn't even argue that. All I said was that Kawhi didn't have a jumper either out of college to show that it is something Dejounte can improve.Tequilla said:
Kawhi has improved tremendously ... but at the same time, I had a very high opinion of him going into his NBA career. You could tell he was a winner in college and would put in the work necessary to become a solid NBA player.CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi had about a 3% better FG% in college but about 4% worse 3 than Dejounte. That is not "night and day difference".Tequilla said:
Night and day difference ...CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi couldn't shoot when he got to the league either.Tequilla said:
I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it.
If I'm betting I think Murray will make it ... he could be the next version of Parker for them. But he's got to be able to at minimum get to the point where that mid-range jumper becomes close to automatic for him or teams are just going to give him anything he wants outside of the lane.
Like I said, I'd be willing to say that Murray will get there ... but to say he's anywhere close to where Leonard was coming out of college and into the NBA ... just not the fact.
All I said was that in a couple seasons they are going to be a very good back court, especially defensively with all their length. You put both of them on a flatbed for comparisons sake.
1) I like that Murray isn't afraid of the moment ...
2) He needs to improve his jumper ...
3) Right now he gets a lot of his baskets through rotations and the opposition being ok with him shooting ...
4) Disagreeing the idea that Leonard/Murray had the same broken jumper issues in college and/or coming into the league ...
5) Saying that Murray needs to get to a point where his jumper is at least consistent in the mid-range game to serve a similar role as Tony Parker (while also saying that I think that that was attainable) ...
You'd think that I said that Murray's a bum and will never make it in the league with all the disagreement that both you and @dnc are throwing out there ... all I've said is that comparing him to Leonard and putting them in the same sentence is foolishly stupid. It'd be hard for me to be more complementary of Murray at this point. Yet I'm the doog ... go figure. -
Wade always had a decent mid-range (back to about the international 3 point line) but definitely has never been a 3 point shooter. He was always more of a slasher and wanting to get inside the 10-15 range before shooting.allpurpleallgold said:I would be cautious about Murray's jumper. Some guys come into the league and improve their shooting, many don't. It's not always a hard work thing. Dwyane Wade is a good example. Never figured out how to shoot consistently, always been a hard worker. Even if he is a bitch.
That said, as long Pop is there and he does work hard, he should be good. Parker was never a threat from 3 but the Spurs made their offense work around that.
The key is getting to the point where that mid-range shot from 17-19 feet becomes automatic like a free throw in the course of play ... if anybody can make that consistently in the 60-70% range it opens up so much more for that player offensively when it comes to getting to the basket ... particularly if your game is to slash and get into the paint.
But you are definitely right that some guys never become solid shooters no matter how much work they put into it. For guys that have spent the balance of their lives being able to get to the basket at will learning to change their game to be able to shoot jump shots is a massive culture shock. -
If Pop openly says they got a good one in Murray, he's going to be good. He wouldn't say that about somebody he wasn't very high on.
Murray will get better and is a future core player for the Spurs. -
Holy shit no one has said anything close to that.Tequilla said:
By what measure is Murray a better shooter than Leonard was?dnc said:
Murray's also the same age as Leonard was a sophomore in college. By that token he's a far better three point shooter than Leonard was at the same stage.Tequilla said:
Kawhi has improved tremendously ... but at the same time, I had a very high opinion of him going into his NBA career. You could tell he was a winner in college and would put in the work necessary to become a solid NBA player.CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi had about a 3% better FG% in college but about 4% worse 3 than Dejounte. That is not "night and day difference".Tequilla said:
Night and day difference ...CuntWaffle said:
Kawhi couldn't shoot when he got to the league either.Tequilla said:
I'm not sure what to think about this ...CuntWaffle said:Dejounte and Kawhi in 2 years is going to be ridiculous.
I love the fact that Murray isn't scared of the moment ... that tells me that he's going to have a fighting chance in the league ...
But43 he needs to be able to shoot the basketball ... most of his baskets right now are coming from being on the weakside rotations and teams being ok with him shooting it.
If I'm betting I think Murray will make it ... he could be the next version of Parker for them. But he's got to be able to at minimum get to the point where that mid-range jumper becomes close to automatic for him or teams are just going to give him anything he wants outside of the lane.
Like I said, I'd be willing to say that Murray will get there ... but to say he's anywhere close to where Leonard was coming out of college and into the NBA ... just not the fact.
The idea that rookie Leonard was a night and day better shooter than Murray is false.
Murray will probably never be the defender that rookie Leonard was but most won't.
He played 322 minutes as a rookie and shot 43% from the field ... are you basing this on the 22 3's he shot? How about the 44.6% he shot in the D-League this season? Or are you looking at the 41.6% from the field he shot in college ... largely because his jumper was broken and his shot selection was suspect (as it is for most young kids).
At least compared to a guy like Tony Wroten you can see that Murray actually looks like he cares about getting better ... it's why I'd bet on the fact that he'd make it.
But thinking that Murray's going to be anywhere close to Leonard is smoking some serious shit ... so very unlikely that Murray's going to be one of the Top 3-5 players in the league.
Cunt said Kawhi was a shit shooter like Murray when he entered the league. He was right. That's the only thing anyone has said comparing Kawhi to Murray. Nobody thinks Murray's going to be a top 5 player in the league. Where did you possibly even get that shit?
