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The Hondo plan
Comments
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You're not eliminating it you're shifting the costs from private sector to public. You could make an argument that there would be added benefits to the money freed up from reserves that insurers currently have to carry that the government won't but you aren't. You either buy healthcare services, you pay a private sector purchasing agent(private insurance), or you pay the government to act as a purchasing agent.2001400ex said:
Why do you ignore the fact we'd eliminate medical insurance costs? That's the biggest number. Well we'd replace it with Medicare tax. But none of that is taken into account to simpletons like you.UW_Doog_Bot said:
It's less than 20% of total cost for administration and profit combined so...not as much as you would want to believe.2001400ex said:
Are you truly that dumb? First off, that's only one side of the equation. I know you like it when Fox news scares you and you can't imagine something they report would be missing information.pawz said:
So your solution is to spend $32 TRILLION and you want me to be happy b/c we might save $300 billion??ThomasFremont said:
Save $300 billion AND get everyone covered. According to a libertarian think tank.pawz said:
It says more that you're afraid to answer the question.ThomasFremont said:
The guy asking this shit hole how to short the market now expects a fully cooked Medicare for all plan explained to him in detail.pawz said:
So you just want to copy somebody? Who?ThomasFremont said:
I already told you my plan. What’s your fucking plan, salt crystals in every yurt?pawz said:
Still dodging the question.ThomasFremont said:
Not really the religious type, but thanks. I’ll pray for you.pawz said:
It appears you have multiple sacred cows above questioning.ThomasFremont said:
I’m not gonna get lectured about basic understanding or healthcare by an anti vax nut.pawz said:
Why is that?ThomasFremont said:
Oh I thought you were joking.pawz said:
Your Hondo-dodge-the-point game is skrong.ThomasFremont said:
An abortion is cheaper than raising a kid. Want some more #tips ???pawz said:
When, in the economics of medicine, has anybody EVER saved money?ThomasFremont said:
You skipped the part where we save $300 billion over 10 years...Sledog said:The Hondo medical plan seems a tad expensive.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/30/bernie-sanders-medicare-for-all-bill-estimated-at-32-6t-study-says.html
Let me know when the producers are competing for the customers. TIA
We pay more than prettying much every other developed country in healthcare costs. So maybe just copy those folks? Or do you prefer the status quo of pretending that we are all helpless victims of circumstance?
Try to answer the question in a way that makes the reader think you understand basic economic principles.
Nothing else matters. Your other two questions are FS.
HTH
This discussion has nothing to do with care, or types of care. It's economics stupid.
If you don't actually understand economics, just say so.
What part of their plan controls costs?
what's in the box.gif
I want providers to compete for the business. Just like every other efficient economy in the word.
It says you cant.
Your solutions at this point amount to Pollyanna bullshit.
I’d take that deal for $0 savings.
And since unlike you I’d actually have to pay more in that system, I think you can shut the fuck up about it. This is all theoretical for you. Go short the market or something.
That's Hondo Fucking Stupid.
If you made the producers compete for the business, and allow the market to control costs, the savings are unfathomable.
It's really that simple.
What do you think the cost savings would be if we got profit out of the equation, ended paying for insurance, and ended the whole medical billing practice?
Think about it.
The rosiest of estimates that I've read put savings at 10% for administration (that's putting it at what Medicare's admin costs are which don't capture all government overhead minus the difference from private sector).
The only other two major savings would be from economies of scale and from the government's ability to negotiate rates with providers. Both of those things are full of pitfalls as any government contractor can tell you. Show me one industry where the government remotely captures these efficiencies and I can give you 20 where they don't.
ALL OF THIS would still leave us as #1 in costs for health care by a wide margin even by the most polyana estimates. Call me skeptical that we'd launch far ahead in health outcomes. There's little evidence that care or services would markedly improve.
Somewhat related: The dems had a golden opportunity to simply tax people that didn't buy insurance and give a tax break for those that do. They fucked it all up by calling it a mandate bc they can't get out of their own way and bc they are pussies and didn't want to call a tax a tax. Universal care could have been achieved through simple financial tax incentives while allowing people freedom in an open market. We do it in housing and 10,000 other circumstances so why not health insurance? < super libertarian opinion right?
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If Fox news says universal coverage would cost $32 trillion. You have to take into account the savings you get. Your first sentence is my whole point. But simpletons like @pawz and @Sledog read $32 trillion from Fox news and shit themselves. Without thinking about anything else.UW_Doog_Bot said:
You're not eliminating it you're shifting the costs from private sector to public. You could make an argument that there would be added benefits to the money freed up from reserves that insurers currently have to carry that the government won't but you aren't. You either buy healthcare services, you pay a private sector purchasing agent(private insurance), or you pay the government to act as a purchasing agent.2001400ex said:
Why do you ignore the fact we'd eliminate medical insurance costs? That's the biggest number. Well we'd replace it with Medicare tax. But none of that is taken into account to simpletons like you.UW_Doog_Bot said:
It's less than 20% of total cost for administration and profit combined so...not as much as you would want to believe.2001400ex said:
Are you truly that dumb? First off, that's only one side of the equation. I know you like it when Fox news scares you and you can't imagine something they report would be missing information.pawz said:
So your solution is to spend $32 TRILLION and you want me to be happy b/c we might save $300 billion??ThomasFremont said:
Save $300 billion AND get everyone covered. According to a libertarian think tank.pawz said:
It says more that you're afraid to answer the question.ThomasFremont said:
The guy asking this shit hole how to short the market now expects a fully cooked Medicare for all plan explained to him in detail.pawz said:
So you just want to copy somebody? Who?ThomasFremont said:
I already told you my plan. What’s your fucking plan, salt crystals in every yurt?pawz said:
Still dodging the question.ThomasFremont said:
Not really the religious type, but thanks. I’ll pray for you.pawz said:
It appears you have multiple sacred cows above questioning.ThomasFremont said:
I’m not gonna get lectured about basic understanding or healthcare by an anti vax nut.pawz said:
Why is that?ThomasFremont said:
Oh I thought you were joking.pawz said:
Your Hondo-dodge-the-point game is skrong.ThomasFremont said:
An abortion is cheaper than raising a kid. Want some more #tips ???pawz said:
When, in the economics of medicine, has anybody EVER saved money?ThomasFremont said:
You skipped the part where we save $300 billion over 10 years...Sledog said:The Hondo medical plan seems a tad expensive.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/30/bernie-sanders-medicare-for-all-bill-estimated-at-32-6t-study-says.html
Let me know when the producers are competing for the customers. TIA
We pay more than prettying much every other developed country in healthcare costs. So maybe just copy those folks? Or do you prefer the status quo of pretending that we are all helpless victims of circumstance?
Try to answer the question in a way that makes the reader think you understand basic economic principles.
Nothing else matters. Your other two questions are FS.
HTH
This discussion has nothing to do with care, or types of care. It's economics stupid.
If you don't actually understand economics, just say so.
What part of their plan controls costs?
what's in the box.gif
I want providers to compete for the business. Just like every other efficient economy in the word.
It says you cant.
Your solutions at this point amount to Pollyanna bullshit.
I’d take that deal for $0 savings.
And since unlike you I’d actually have to pay more in that system, I think you can shut the fuck up about it. This is all theoretical for you. Go short the market or something.
That's Hondo Fucking Stupid.
If you made the producers compete for the business, and allow the market to control costs, the savings are unfathomable.
It's really that simple.
What do you think the cost savings would be if we got profit out of the equation, ended paying for insurance, and ended the whole medical billing practice?
Think about it.
The rosiest of estimates that I've read put savings at 10% for administration (that's putting it at what Medicare's admin costs are which don't capture all government overhead minus the difference from private sector).
The only other two major savings would be from economies of scale and from the government's ability to negotiate rates with providers. Both of those things are full of pitfalls as any government contractor can tell you. Show me one industry where the government remotely captures these efficiencies and I can give you 20 where they don't.
ALL OF THIS would still leave us as #1 in costs for health care by a wide margin even by the most polyana estimates. Call me skeptical that we'd launch far ahead in health outcomes. There's little evidence that care or services would markedly improve.
Somewhat related: The dems had a golden opportunity to simply tax people that didn't buy insurance and give a tax break for those that do. They fucked it all up by calling it a mandate bc they can't get out of their own way and bc they are pussies and didn't want to call a tax a tax. Universal care could have been achieved through simple financial tax incentives while allowing people freedom in an open market. We do it in housing and 10,000 other circumstances so why not health insurance? < super libertarian opinion right? -
I have a longform post from another forum that I'll dig up that is a "free market" based approach to universal care. I'll try to post it this week if I can find it. You're welcome to criticize it.CirrhosisDawg said:UW_Doog_Bot said:I heart the clean air and water act for one example. I'm also not at all opposed to transfers and social programs that work efficiently or manage to avoid significant negative externalities.
It's shocking! Shocking that someone with a degree in economics would argue for free market solutions! Nevermind my professional experiences...
Your post still had no substance other than to attack me(and not any of what I had to actually say). Lmk when you've got higher level policy to discuss. Still waiting for more than hand waving about Europe and Medicare.
You’ve proved you read the text book and showed up to Kane for the test. Still waiting for you to advocate a policy based on your extensive experience analyzing efficiencies, and externalities — not to mention your professional experiences...
You are full of shit.
Still haven't heard anything other than an attack out of you. You seem angry that people have an opposing view. -
Because the commie asshats would not have control of 1/6th of the economy and your life.UW_Doog_Bot said:
You're not eliminating it you're shifting the costs from private sector to public. You could make an argument that there would be added benefits to the money freed up from reserves that insurers currently have to carry that the government won't but you aren't. You either buy healthcare services, you pay a private sector purchasing agent(private insurance), or you pay the government to act as a purchasing agent.2001400ex said:
Why do you ignore the fact we'd eliminate medical insurance costs? That's the biggest number. Well we'd replace it with Medicare tax. But none of that is taken into account to simpletons like you.UW_Doog_Bot said:
It's less than 20% of total cost for administration and profit combined so...not as much as you would want to believe.2001400ex said:
Are you truly that dumb? First off, that's only one side of the equation. I know you like it when Fox news scares you and you can't imagine something they report would be missing information.pawz said:
So your solution is to spend $32 TRILLION and you want me to be happy b/c we might save $300 billion??ThomasFremont said:
Save $300 billion AND get everyone covered. According to a libertarian think tank.pawz said:
It says more that you're afraid to answer the question.ThomasFremont said:
The guy asking this shit hole how to short the market now expects a fully cooked Medicare for all plan explained to him in detail.pawz said:
So you just want to copy somebody? Who?ThomasFremont said:
I already told you my plan. What’s your fucking plan, salt crystals in every yurt?pawz said:
Still dodging the question.ThomasFremont said:
Not really the religious type, but thanks. I’ll pray for you.pawz said:
It appears you have multiple sacred cows above questioning.ThomasFremont said:
I’m not gonna get lectured about basic understanding or healthcare by an anti vax nut.pawz said:
Why is that?ThomasFremont said:
Oh I thought you were joking.pawz said:
Your Hondo-dodge-the-point game is skrong.ThomasFremont said:
An abortion is cheaper than raising a kid. Want some more #tips ???pawz said:
When, in the economics of medicine, has anybody EVER saved money?ThomasFremont said:
You skipped the part where we save $300 billion over 10 years...Sledog said:The Hondo medical plan seems a tad expensive.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/30/bernie-sanders-medicare-for-all-bill-estimated-at-32-6t-study-says.html
Let me know when the producers are competing for the customers. TIA
We pay more than prettying much every other developed country in healthcare costs. So maybe just copy those folks? Or do you prefer the status quo of pretending that we are all helpless victims of circumstance?
Try to answer the question in a way that makes the reader think you understand basic economic principles.
Nothing else matters. Your other two questions are FS.
HTH
This discussion has nothing to do with care, or types of care. It's economics stupid.
If you don't actually understand economics, just say so.
What part of their plan controls costs?
what's in the box.gif
I want providers to compete for the business. Just like every other efficient economy in the word.
It says you cant.
Your solutions at this point amount to Pollyanna bullshit.
I’d take that deal for $0 savings.
And since unlike you I’d actually have to pay more in that system, I think you can shut the fuck up about it. This is all theoretical for you. Go short the market or something.
That's Hondo Fucking Stupid.
If you made the producers compete for the business, and allow the market to control costs, the savings are unfathomable.
It's really that simple.
What do you think the cost savings would be if we got profit out of the equation, ended paying for insurance, and ended the whole medical billing practice?
Think about it.
The rosiest of estimates that I've read put savings at 10% for administration (that's putting it at what Medicare's admin costs are which don't capture all government overhead minus the difference from private sector).
The only other two major savings would be from economies of scale and from the government's ability to negotiate rates with providers. Both of those things are full of pitfalls as any government contractor can tell you. Show me one industry where the government remotely captures these efficiencies and I can give you 20 where they don't.
ALL OF THIS would still leave us as #1 in costs for health care by a wide margin even by the most polyana estimates. Call me skeptical that we'd launch far ahead in health outcomes. There's little evidence that care or services would markedly improve.
Somewhat related: The dems had a golden opportunity to simply tax people that didn't buy insurance and give a tax break for those that do. They fucked it all up by calling it a mandate bc they can't get out of their own way and bc they are pussies and didn't want to call a tax a tax. Universal care could have been achieved through simple financial tax incentives while allowing people freedom in an open market. We do it in housing and 10,000 other circumstances so why not health insurance? < super libertarian opinion right? -
Opposing? I’ll let you know. All I see is tequila-esque posts of meaningless dense text.UW_Doog_Bot said:
I have a longform post from another forum that I'll dig up that is a "free market" based approach to universal care. I'll try to post it this week if I can find it. You're welcome to criticize it.CirrhosisDawg said:UW_Doog_Bot said:I heart the clean air and water act for one example. I'm also not at all opposed to transfers and social programs that work efficiently or manage to avoid significant negative externalities.
It's shocking! Shocking that someone with a degree in economics would argue for free market solutions! Nevermind my professional experiences...
Your post still had no substance other than to attack me(and not any of what I had to actually say). Lmk when you've got higher level policy to discuss. Still waiting for more than hand waving about Europe and Medicare.
You’ve proved you read the text book and showed up to Kane for the test. Still waiting for you to advocate a policy based on your extensive experience analyzing efficiencies, and externalities — not to mention your professional experiences...
You are full of shit.
Still haven't heard anything other than an attack out of you. You seem angry that people have an opposing view. -
Another attack, good. Still waiting for anything with depth as to why a socialized medical system would be more efficient and result in better health outcomes.CirrhosisDawg said:
Opposing? I’ll let you know. All I see is tequila-esque posts of meaningless dense text.UW_Doog_Bot said:
I have a longform post from another forum that I'll dig up that is a "free market" based approach to universal care. I'll try to post it this week if I can find it. You're welcome to criticize it.CirrhosisDawg said:UW_Doog_Bot said:I heart the clean air and water act for one example. I'm also not at all opposed to transfers and social programs that work efficiently or manage to avoid significant negative externalities.
It's shocking! Shocking that someone with a degree in economics would argue for free market solutions! Nevermind my professional experiences...
Your post still had no substance other than to attack me(and not any of what I had to actually say). Lmk when you've got higher level policy to discuss. Still waiting for more than hand waving about Europe and Medicare.
You’ve proved you read the text book and showed up to Kane for the test. Still waiting for you to advocate a policy based on your extensive experience analyzing efficiencies, and externalities — not to mention your professional experiences...
You are full of shit.
Still haven't heard anything other than an attack out of you. You seem angry that people have an opposing view.
I guess you prefer shorthand talking points?
I would try to be more concise but I'm playing to a new and mixed audience. I'd hate to be pigeonholed and dismissed for views I don't even hold.
-
For those that actually want to read beyond $32 trillion.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/30/17631240/medicare-for-all-bernie-sanders-32-trillion-cost-voxcare
Imagine that.... Total costs are the same but 100% of Americans are covered. Sounds like a better deal to me. -
Vox, an extremely reliable, non-partisan website that isn't filled with despicable fake news hacks.2001400ex said:For those that actually want to read beyond $32 trillion.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/30/17631240/medicare-for-all-bernie-sanders-32-trillion-cost-voxcare
Imagine that.... Total costs are the same but 100% of Americans are covered. Sounds like a better deal to me. -
100% coverage doesn't mean it's good coverage.2001400ex said:For those that actually want to read beyond $32 trillion.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/30/17631240/medicare-for-all-bernie-sanders-32-trillion-cost-voxcare
Imagine that.... Total costs are the same but 100% of Americans are covered. Sounds like a better deal to me.
From the article
“Lower spending is driven by lower provider payment rates, drug savings, and administrative cost savings,” Yevgeniy Feyman at the right-leaning Manhattan Institute told me. “It’s not clear to what extent those savings are politically feasible, and socially beneficial.”
The article goes on to admit that there could be "other" associated costs ex. Drug innovation.
And again, rosy estimates.
Even if it's essentially cost neutral it seems the preference would be for people to self determine their consumption rather than a federal bureaucrat. -
Keep waiting Milton. In the meantime, why don’t you entertain yourself by reading your Principles of Econ 101 textbook. No need to keep posting it here. They are not really “your” views and no one cares anyway.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Another attack, good. Still waiting for anything with depth as to why a socialized medical system would be more efficient and result in better health outcomes.CirrhosisDawg said:
Opposing? I’ll let you know. All I see is tequila-esque posts of meaningless dense text.UW_Doog_Bot said:
I have a longform post from another forum that I'll dig up that is a "free market" based approach to universal care. I'll try to post it this week if I can find it. You're welcome to criticize it.CirrhosisDawg said:UW_Doog_Bot said:I heart the clean air and water act for one example. I'm also not at all opposed to transfers and social programs that work efficiently or manage to avoid significant negative externalities.
It's shocking! Shocking that someone with a degree in economics would argue for free market solutions! Nevermind my professional experiences...
Your post still had no substance other than to attack me(and not any of what I had to actually say). Lmk when you've got higher level policy to discuss. Still waiting for more than hand waving about Europe and Medicare.
You’ve proved you read the text book and showed up to Kane for the test. Still waiting for you to advocate a policy based on your extensive experience analyzing efficiencies, and externalities — not to mention your professional experiences...
You are full of shit.
Still haven't heard anything other than an attack out of you. You seem angry that people have an opposing view.
I guess you prefer shorthand talking points?
I would try to be more concise but I'm playing to a new and mixed audience. I'd hate to be pigeonholed and dismissed for views I don't even hold.
