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  • BleachedAnusDawg
    BleachedAnusDawg Member Posts: 13,141 Standard Supporter
    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.
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  • RoadDawg55
    RoadDawg55 Member Posts: 30,123
    dnc said:

    haie said:

    Jordan if he came out in 2018 === Westbrook on some other team bowing out in the 1st/2nd round.

    He was the best player on a truly great team. People forget that.

    The Warriors are a truly great team. The Bulls without Jordan were very good, but not great. He definitely had a lot of help but he's the reason those teams were "truly great".
    Pippen was legitimately the 2nd best wing after Jordan. He was a great defender and a great secondary playmaker. There wasn't any swing man better than him after Jordan. He didn't win the MVP when Jordan first retired, but he was an All NBA guy.
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  • dnc
    dnc Member Posts: 56,839
    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
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  • dnc
    dnc Member Posts: 56,839
    RoadDawg55 said:

    dnc said:

    haie said:

    Jordan if he came out in 2018 === Westbrook on some other team bowing out in the 1st/2nd round.

    He was the best player on a truly great team. People forget that.

    The Warriors are a truly great team. The Bulls without Jordan were very good, but not great. He definitely had a lot of help but he's the reason those teams were "truly great".
    Pippen was legitimately the 2nd best wing after Jordan. He was a great defender and a great secondary playmaker. There wasn't any swing man better than him after Jordan. He didn't win the MVP when Jordan first retired, but he was an All NBA guy.
    I would have taken Penny over him until Penny got hurt, but yeah Pippen was damn good.

    There wasn't really much else about that team that was special though (until they added Rodman).

    And Phil is overfuckingrated.
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  • RoadDawg55
    RoadDawg55 Member Posts: 30,123
    dnc said:

    RoadDawg55 said:

    dnc said:

    haie said:

    Jordan if he came out in 2018 === Westbrook on some other team bowing out in the 1st/2nd round.

    He was the best player on a truly great team. People forget that.

    The Warriors are a truly great team. The Bulls without Jordan were very good, but not great. He definitely had a lot of help but he's the reason those teams were "truly great".
    Pippen was legitimately the 2nd best wing after Jordan. He was a great defender and a great secondary playmaker. There wasn't any swing man better than him after Jordan. He didn't win the MVP when Jordan first retired, but he was an All NBA guy.
    I would have taken Penny over him until Penny got hurt, but yeah Pippen was damn good.

    There wasn't really much else about that team that was special though (until they added Rodman).

    And Phil is overfuckingrated.
    Agree about Phil. Can't argue the winning tho. He gets acknowledgement for his titles.

    Penny over Pippen? Penny was more exciting but he had Shaq. He never won 57 with Tony Kukoc and Horace Grant as the next two best players.
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  • Tequilla
    Tequilla Member Posts: 20,098
    Thank you for the laughs ... some of you are the definition of fucktarded

    Win ... nothing else matters ... unless we are talking about LBJ ... then all is forgiven and he’s the GOAT

    The whole LBJ is a better defender than MJ line ... some of you need need to forget about the lube and just straight go raw dog with LBJ’s dick in your asses
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  • dnc
    dnc Member Posts: 56,839
    Tequilla said:

    Thank you for the laughs ... some of you are the definition of fucktarded

    Win ... nothing else matters ... unless we are talking about LBJ ... then all is forgiven and he’s the GOAT

    The whole LBJ is a better defender than MJ line ... some of you need need to forget about the lube and just straight go raw dog with LBJ’s dick in your asses

    Dude, LeBron could shut down players MJ couldn't check, that's just a fact.

    I think MJ had more consistent defense throughout his career, but peak LeBron d > peak MJ d
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  • HorrifyinglyAlluring
    HorrifyinglyAlluring Member Posts: 102
    Why do I have to remind people that during the 8 Finals streak, LeBron has 3 rings and 3 MVPs, has beaten a 73-9 Warriors team during their 4 straight run, and beaten KD while he was with OKC?

    The media are a bunch of liars. They have created this false narrative about LeBron and MJ concerning the GOAT label, when that is a conversation that is years away since LeBron could play another 4-5 years. Also, a player’s finals record is only part of their resume, not THE resume.

    LeBron lost a great chance in ‘15 when Kyrie and Love were lost. After he won it in ‘16, the Warriors ran and got the best scorer in the league in KD and they crushed him. Then he drags this rag tag roster that was put together mid-season and he lost Kyrie because he wanted to leave. Yet, the critics would have you believe that LeBron looks bad at 3-6 in the Finals.

    I can only imagine what the narrative would be if he had lost that game 7 to the Celts without Kyrie and Heyward, especially after that poster dunk and staredown by Tatum. He would have been crucified. People keep talking about what MJ would have done in Lebron’s shoes when we already know that he went 1-9 in the playoffs before Pippen got there.

    One last thing, MJ was talked about being the GOAT after the 1st 3-peat, not when he got his 6th ring. I was an adult at the time, so I remember since I was a Bulls fan and loved MJ. When you are a special type of player, the ring count isn’t that big of a deal as long as you have at least won it multiple times, which LeBron has with 2 different franchises.
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  • RoadDawg55
    RoadDawg55 Member Posts: 30,123
    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    Thank you for the laughs ... some of you are the definition of fucktarded

    Win ... nothing else matters ... unless we are talking about LBJ ... then all is forgiven and he’s the GOAT

    The whole LBJ is a better defender than MJ line ... some of you need need to forget about the lube and just straight go raw dog with LBJ’s dick in your asses

    Dude, LeBron could shut down players MJ couldn't check, that's just a fact.

    I think MJ had more consistent defense throughout his career, but peak LeBron d > peak MJ d
    Forget the lube and let LeBron raw dawg you.
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  • BleachedAnusDawg
    BleachedAnusDawg Member Posts: 13,141 Standard Supporter
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
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  • Tequilla
    Tequilla Member Posts: 20,098
    dnc said:

    RoadDawg55 said:

    Tequilla said:

    RoadDawg55 said:

    UW_Doog_Bot said:

    dnc said:

    BaldwinIV said:

    yes lebron is primarily responsible for the make up of the team

    but you cant scratch two sticks together and make gold. kyrie irving left and in return they got an average point guard, a bench player, and a complete nothing. its widely reported lebron wanted the cavs to trade their pick for deandre

    and this is all besides the point. lebron literally had one of the best seasons in history, in any context, and given what i listed many still believe he needed an excuse for getting swept in the finals lmfao

    it is literally 4 hall of famers against lebron, the magically disappearing and randomly appearing kevin love, and the nba's version of a YMCA team. why the fuck would lebron need an excuse? it's clear to virtually everyone he's the best player on the planet for simply making the finals

    some of ya'll should just admit you hate him because you're MJ fans and feel threatened

    I hate MJ
    Agree.

    For fuck's sake I'm a fucking Lakers fan. I grew up absolutely hating MJ. He's still the all tim best though. I 100% hoped Kobe would manage to surpass his ass. He didn't. Neither has Lebron.

    Some of you just need to admit you've been on the Lebron = Goat narrative since before he ever earned it on the court.

    I'll still be enthusiastic as fuck if he comes to LA with at least one other major free agent.
    I wasn't on the LeBron GOAT narrative before he beat GS in the finals. I hated him for a long time, but at a certain point it was undeniable.

    Then you add in his next two years and predict the future. He's the best.

    MJ had a lot more charisma and won more titles. There really wasn't one thing he did better than LeBron on the court.
    Let’s see ... what did MJ do better than LBJ

    Scored better

    Better defender

    Better competitive streak

    And yeah, that winning thing kinda matters
    Not a better defender. LeBron was the best defender in the league for awhile. Not a better scorer, especially as they got older. LeBron is more efficient as well.

    Equal shooters. LeBron has gotten much better. LeBron is a better passer and rebounder.

    I'll give you competive streak, although LeBron has put the Cavs on his back every year he's been with them.

    LeBron's main fault is he's a drama queen. A lot of the dissension and turmoil could be avoided if he wasn't a passive aggressive pussy at times. Part of that is the twitter/hot take media.
    Yeah, LeBron's actually a significantly better shooter. Jordan's effective shooting percentage was .509, Bron's is .540. Of course Jordan's got the two past his prime Washington years dragging his numbers down but even without them Bron had the edge.

    Agree about Bron's biggest fault.
    GTFO regarding effective FG % ... that’s a metric that magnifies how the game has changed with the 3 point shot and how the rules and play have largely changed both offensively and defensively between eras.
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  • dnc
    dnc Member Posts: 56,839
    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
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  • RaceBannon
    RaceBannon Member, Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 113,673 Founders Club
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    The 1999–2000 NBA season was the 30th season for the Portland Trail Blazers in the National Basketball Association.[1] During the offseason, the Blazers acquired All-Star forward Scottie Pippen from the Houston Rockets,[2] Steve Smith from the Atlanta Hawks, and signed free agent Detlef Schrempf. Portland went 59–23, which tied them for the second-highest win percentage in franchise history. Finishing second in the Pacific Division, they earned the #3 seed in the Western Conference on the basis that the 55–27 Utah Jazz won the Midwest Division title. (However, the Blazers enjoyed homecourt advantage over Utah in their second-round playoff series). The Blazers made the playoffs for the 18th consecutive year. Rasheed Wallace was selected to play in the 2000 NBA All-Star Game.

    In the playoffs, the Blazers defeated the Minnesota Timberwolves 3–1 in the first-round, and the Jazz 4–1 in the second round. In the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, they came back from a 3–1 series deficit to force Game 7.

    Up by 15 points with ten minutes remaining in Game 7, the Blazers suffered a 15–0 run by Los Angeles that tied the score, and the Lakers pulled out an 89–84 victory to advance to the 2000 NBA Finals. This series has been widely criticized for its controversial officiating and many critics of the series feel that the NBA may have tampered with the series and especially with game 7.[3] Following the season, Jermaine O'Neal was traded to the Indiana Pacers, and Brian Grant was dealt to the Miami Heat.
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  • dnc
    dnc Member Posts: 56,839
    RaceBannon said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    The 1999–2000 NBA season was the 30th season for the Portland Trail Blazers in the National Basketball Association.[1] During the offseason, the Blazers acquired All-Star forward Scottie Pippen from the Houston Rockets,[2] Steve Smith from the Atlanta Hawks, and signed free agent Detlef Schrempf. Portland went 59–23, which tied them for the second-highest win percentage in franchise history. Finishing second in the Pacific Division, they earned the #3 seed in the Western Conference on the basis that the 55–27 Utah Jazz won the Midwest Division title. (However, the Blazers enjoyed homecourt advantage over Utah in their second-round playoff series). The Blazers made the playoffs for the 18th consecutive year. Rasheed Wallace was selected to play in the 2000 NBA All-Star Game.

    In the playoffs, the Blazers defeated the Minnesota Timberwolves 3–1 in the first-round, and the Jazz 4–1 in the second round. In the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, they came back from a 3–1 series deficit to force Game 7.

    Up by 15 points with ten minutes remaining in Game 7, the Blazers suffered a 15–0 run by Los Angeles that tied the score, and the Lakers pulled out an 89–84 victory to advance to the 2000 NBA Finals. This series has been widely criticized for its controversial officiating and many critics of the series feel that the NBA may have tampered with the series and especially with game 7.[3] Following the season, Jermaine O'Neal was traded to the Indiana Pacers, and Brian Grant was dealt to the Miami Heat.
    You're right, I forgot Pippen had that huge 12.5 ppg season for Portland. Totally the same guy.
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  • Kaepsknee
    Kaepsknee Member Posts: 14,913
    RoadDawg55 said:

    UW_Doog_Bot said:

    dnc said:

    BaldwinIV said:

    yes lebron is primarily responsible for the make up of the team

    but you cant scratch two sticks together and make gold. kyrie irving left and in return they got an average point guard, a bench player, and a complete nothing. its widely reported lebron wanted the cavs to trade their pick for deandre

    and this is all besides the point. lebron literally had one of the best seasons in history, in any context, and given what i listed many still believe he needed an excuse for getting swept in the finals lmfao

    it is literally 4 hall of famers against lebron, the magically disappearing and randomly appearing kevin love, and the nba's version of a YMCA team. why the fuck would lebron need an excuse? it's clear to virtually everyone he's the best player on the planet for simply making the finals

    some of ya'll should just admit you hate him because you're MJ fans and feel threatened

    I hate MJ
    Agree.

    For fuck's sake I'm a fucking Lakers fan. I grew up absolutely hating MJ. He's still the all tim best though. I 100% hoped Kobe would manage to surpass his ass. He didn't. Neither has Lebron.

    Some of you just need to admit you've been on the Lebron = Goat narrative since before he ever earned it on the court.

    I'll still be enthusiastic as fuck if he comes to LA with at least one other major free agent.
    I wasn't on the LeBron GOAT narrative before he beat GS in the finals. I hated him for a long time, but at a certain point it was undeniable.

    Then you add in his next two years and predict the future. He's the best.

    MJ had a lot more charisma and won more titles. There really wasn't one thing he did better than LeBron on the court.
    I hope you drive better than you historically rate NBA players. Jordan, whom you obviously never saw play live without a rattle in your hand, was a perennial scoring leader and 1st team all NBA defender who refused to lose. LeBron is a supremely gifted basketball player who has tried to be a GM at the same time. It’s been good enough to rule a perennially weak East. But rarely good enough to beat the best in the West. Nothing about LeBron spells GOAT. Not yet.
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  • Kaepsknee
    Kaepsknee Member Posts: 14,913
    RaceBannon said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    The 1999–2000 NBA season was the 30th season for the Portland Trail Blazers in the National Basketball Association.[1] During the offseason, the Blazers acquired All-Star forward Scottie Pippen from the Houston Rockets,[2] Steve Smith from the Atlanta Hawks, and signed free agent Detlef Schrempf. Portland went 59–23, which tied them for the second-highest win percentage in franchise history. Finishing second in the Pacific Division, they earned the #3 seed in the Western Conference on the basis that the 55–27 Utah Jazz won the Midwest Division title. (However, the Blazers enjoyed homecourt advantage over Utah in their second-round playoff series). The Blazers made the playoffs for the 18th consecutive year. Rasheed Wallace was selected to play in the 2000 NBA All-Star Game.

    In the playoffs, the Blazers defeated the Minnesota Timberwolves 3–1 in the first-round, and the Jazz 4–1 in the second round. In the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, they came back from a 3–1 series deficit to force Game 7.

    Up by 15 points with ten minutes remaining in Game 7, the Blazers suffered a 15–0 run by Los Angeles that tied the score, and the Lakers pulled out an 89–84 victory to advance to the 2000 NBA Finals. This series has been widely criticized for its controversial officiating and many critics of the series feel that the NBA may have tampered with the series and especially with game 7.[3] Following the season, Jermaine O'Neal was traded to the Indiana Pacers, and Brian Grant was dealt to the Miami Heat.
    Sounds like Wiki needs to check @haie before they let him write for them. The Game 7 loss had nothing to do with the refs. It was just one of a long line of Blazer chokes. They missed double digit shots in a row in that 4th quarter. The refs had nothing to do with it.
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  • Tequilla
    Tequilla Member Posts: 20,098
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    Hold up because this needs to be talked about in the context of the narrative of crowning LBJ for getting to the Finals this year

    You are absolutely right that Scottie’s back was completely F’ed up during the ‘98 season and Playoffs as he only played 44 regular season games. Rodman was going off the rails at points during the season as he started getting removed from the starting lineup. The youngest players in their rotation were 29 year olds Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, and the immortal Randy Brown.

    Yet, at the age of 34 MJ dropped 32.4 points per game. In the games that really mattered, in typical MJ fashion, he was at his best. Game 7 against Indiana he put down a 28-9-8 performance and willed his team to victory against arguably a better team at that point. Then in the clinching Game 6 against Utah, there is obviously the final sequence that is immortal ... but lost in all of that is MJ’s 45 points.

    That Bulls team was worse than this Cavs team. Yes, the Warriors are better than that Utah team. But for anybody to act like MJ never overcame a deck stacked against him is just flat out wrong.

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  • dnc
    dnc Member Posts: 56,839
    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    Hold up because this needs to be talked about in the context of the narrative of crowning LBJ for getting to the Finals this year

    You are absolutely right that Scottie’s back was completely F’ed up during the ‘98 season and Playoffs as he only played 44 regular season games. Rodman was going off the rails at points during the season as he started getting removed from the starting lineup. The youngest players in their rotation were 29 year olds Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, and the immortal Randy Brown.

    Yet, at the age of 34 MJ dropped 32.4 points per game. In the games that really mattered, in typical MJ fashion, he was at his best. Game 7 against Indiana he put down a 28-9-8 performance and willed his team to victory against arguably a better team at that point. Then in the clinching Game 6 against Utah, there is obviously the final sequence that is immortal ... but lost in all of that is MJ’s 45 points.

    That Bulls team was worse than this Cavs team. Yes, the Warriors are better than that Utah team. But for anybody to act like MJ never overcame a deck stacked against him is just flat out wrong.

    That Bulls team was mediocre but it was better than the Cavs
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  • PurpleThrobber
    PurpleThrobber Member Posts: 48,005
    salemcoog said:

    RoadDawg55 said:

    UW_Doog_Bot said:

    dnc said:

    BaldwinIV said:

    yes lebron is primarily responsible for the make up of the team

    but you cant scratch two sticks together and make gold. kyrie irving left and in return they got an average point guard, a bench player, and a complete nothing. its widely reported lebron wanted the cavs to trade their pick for deandre

    and this is all besides the point. lebron literally had one of the best seasons in history, in any context, and given what i listed many still believe he needed an excuse for getting swept in the finals lmfao

    it is literally 4 hall of famers against lebron, the magically disappearing and randomly appearing kevin love, and the nba's version of a YMCA team. why the fuck would lebron need an excuse? it's clear to virtually everyone he's the best player on the planet for simply making the finals

    some of ya'll should just admit you hate him because you're MJ fans and feel threatened

    I hate MJ
    Agree.

    For fuck's sake I'm a fucking Lakers fan. I grew up absolutely hating MJ. He's still the all tim best though. I 100% hoped Kobe would manage to surpass his ass. He didn't. Neither has Lebron.

    Some of you just need to admit you've been on the Lebron = Goat narrative since before he ever earned it on the court.

    I'll still be enthusiastic as fuck if he comes to LA with at least one other major free agent.
    I wasn't on the LeBron GOAT narrative before he beat GS in the finals. I hated him for a long time, but at a certain point it was undeniable.

    Then you add in his next two years and predict the future. He's the best.

    MJ had a lot more charisma and won more titles. There really wasn't one thing he did better than LeBron on the court.
    I hope you drive better than you historically rate NBA players. Jordan, whom you obviously never saw play live without a rattle in your hand, was a perennial scoring leader and 1st team all NBA defender who refused to lose. LeBron is a supremely gifted basketball player who has tried to be a GM at the same time. It’s been good enough to rule a perennially weak East. But rarely good enough to beat the best in the West. Nothing about LeBron spells GOAT. Not yet.
    Lebron is slightly ahead of Jerry West in terms of loser GOAT performances.

    Except Jerry West waited until an appropriate time to put on the GM hat.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tequilla
    Tequilla Member Posts: 20,098
    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    Hold up because this needs to be talked about in the context of the narrative of crowning LBJ for getting to the Finals this year

    You are absolutely right that Scottie’s back was completely F’ed up during the ‘98 season and Playoffs as he only played 44 regular season games. Rodman was going off the rails at points during the season as he started getting removed from the starting lineup. The youngest players in their rotation were 29 year olds Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, and the immortal Randy Brown.

    Yet, at the age of 34 MJ dropped 32.4 points per game. In the games that really mattered, in typical MJ fashion, he was at his best. Game 7 against Indiana he put down a 28-9-8 performance and willed his team to victory against arguably a better team at that point. Then in the clinching Game 6 against Utah, there is obviously the final sequence that is immortal ... but lost in all of that is MJ’s 45 points.

    That Bulls team was worse than this Cavs team. Yes, the Warriors are better than that Utah team. But for anybody to act like MJ never overcame a deck stacked against him is just flat out wrong.

    That Bulls team was mediocre but it was better than the Cavs
    Yep because MJ >>> LBJ
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tequilla
    Tequilla Member Posts: 20,098
    RoadDawg55 said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    The whole league started to suck at that point. Not many talk about this, but it did. The Finals games against the Jazz were dreck. Jordan being clutch is the only thing that saved them. Utah actually only scored 54 points in an entire game.
    I wonder why that happened???
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dnc
    dnc Member Posts: 56,839
    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    Hold up because this needs to be talked about in the context of the narrative of crowning LBJ for getting to the Finals this year

    You are absolutely right that Scottie’s back was completely F’ed up during the ‘98 season and Playoffs as he only played 44 regular season games. Rodman was going off the rails at points during the season as he started getting removed from the starting lineup. The youngest players in their rotation were 29 year olds Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, and the immortal Randy Brown.

    Yet, at the age of 34 MJ dropped 32.4 points per game. In the games that really mattered, in typical MJ fashion, he was at his best. Game 7 against Indiana he put down a 28-9-8 performance and willed his team to victory against arguably a better team at that point. Then in the clinching Game 6 against Utah, there is obviously the final sequence that is immortal ... but lost in all of that is MJ’s 45 points.

    That Bulls team was worse than this Cavs team. Yes, the Warriors are better than that Utah team. But for anybody to act like MJ never overcame a deck stacked against him is just flat out wrong.

    That Bulls team was mediocre but it was better than the Cavs
    Yep because MJ >>> LBJ
    I'm saying Bulls minus MJ > Cavs minus Bron
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  • RaceBannon
    RaceBannon Member, Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 113,673 Founders Club
    Its funny that Indiana is always "almost" beating the eventual champs in the East going back a long long time.


    They were the best ABA franchise with three titles
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tequilla
    Tequilla Member Posts: 20,098
    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    Hold up because this needs to be talked about in the context of the narrative of crowning LBJ for getting to the Finals this year

    You are absolutely right that Scottie’s back was completely F’ed up during the ‘98 season and Playoffs as he only played 44 regular season games. Rodman was going off the rails at points during the season as he started getting removed from the starting lineup. The youngest players in their rotation were 29 year olds Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, and the immortal Randy Brown.

    Yet, at the age of 34 MJ dropped 32.4 points per game. In the games that really mattered, in typical MJ fashion, he was at his best. Game 7 against Indiana he put down a 28-9-8 performance and willed his team to victory against arguably a better team at that point. Then in the clinching Game 6 against Utah, there is obviously the final sequence that is immortal ... but lost in all of that is MJ’s 45 points.

    That Bulls team was worse than this Cavs team. Yes, the Warriors are better than that Utah team. But for anybody to act like MJ never overcame a deck stacked against him is just flat out wrong.

    That Bulls team was mediocre but it was better than the Cavs
    Yep because MJ >>> LBJ
    I'm saying Bulls minus MJ > Cavs minus Bron
    Highly disagree
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dnc
    dnc Member Posts: 56,839
    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    Hold up because this needs to be talked about in the context of the narrative of crowning LBJ for getting to the Finals this year

    You are absolutely right that Scottie’s back was completely F’ed up during the ‘98 season and Playoffs as he only played 44 regular season games. Rodman was going off the rails at points during the season as he started getting removed from the starting lineup. The youngest players in their rotation were 29 year olds Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, and the immortal Randy Brown.

    Yet, at the age of 34 MJ dropped 32.4 points per game. In the games that really mattered, in typical MJ fashion, he was at his best. Game 7 against Indiana he put down a 28-9-8 performance and willed his team to victory against arguably a better team at that point. Then in the clinching Game 6 against Utah, there is obviously the final sequence that is immortal ... but lost in all of that is MJ’s 45 points.

    That Bulls team was worse than this Cavs team. Yes, the Warriors are better than that Utah team. But for anybody to act like MJ never overcame a deck stacked against him is just flat out wrong.

    That Bulls team was mediocre but it was better than the Cavs
    Yep because MJ >>> LBJ
    I'm saying Bulls minus MJ > Cavs minus Bron
    Highly disagree
    Highly disagree with you're disagree.

    Phil over Lue is almost enough in and of itself.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tequilla
    Tequilla Member Posts: 20,098
    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    Hold up because this needs to be talked about in the context of the narrative of crowning LBJ for getting to the Finals this year

    You are absolutely right that Scottie’s back was completely F’ed up during the ‘98 season and Playoffs as he only played 44 regular season games. Rodman was going off the rails at points during the season as he started getting removed from the starting lineup. The youngest players in their rotation were 29 year olds Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, and the immortal Randy Brown.

    Yet, at the age of 34 MJ dropped 32.4 points per game. In the games that really mattered, in typical MJ fashion, he was at his best. Game 7 against Indiana he put down a 28-9-8 performance and willed his team to victory against arguably a better team at that point. Then in the clinching Game 6 against Utah, there is obviously the final sequence that is immortal ... but lost in all of that is MJ’s 45 points.

    That Bulls team was worse than this Cavs team. Yes, the Warriors are better than that Utah team. But for anybody to act like MJ never overcame a deck stacked against him is just flat out wrong.

    That Bulls team was mediocre but it was better than the Cavs
    Yep because MJ >>> LBJ
    I'm saying Bulls minus MJ > Cavs minus Bron
    Highly disagree
    Highly disagree with you're disagree.

    Phil over Lue is almost enough in and of itself.
    The last part I 100% agree with
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Kaepsknee
    Kaepsknee Member Posts: 14,913
    RoadDawg55 said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    Hold up because this needs to be talked about in the context of the narrative of crowning LBJ for getting to the Finals this year

    You are absolutely right that Scottie’s back was completely F’ed up during the ‘98 season and Playoffs as he only played 44 regular season games. Rodman was going off the rails at points during the season as he started getting removed from the starting lineup. The youngest players in their rotation were 29 year olds Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, and the immortal Randy Brown.

    Yet, at the age of 34 MJ dropped 32.4 points per game. In the games that really mattered, in typical MJ fashion, he was at his best. Game 7 against Indiana he put down a 28-9-8 performance and willed his team to victory against arguably a better team at that point. Then in the clinching Game 6 against Utah, there is obviously the final sequence that is immortal ... but lost in all of that is MJ’s 45 points.

    That Bulls team was worse than this Cavs team. Yes, the Warriors are better than that Utah team. But for anybody to act like MJ never overcame a deck stacked against him is just flat out wrong.

    What a performance. 29-9-8 against the Indiana Pacers? That's a very average game for LeBron.
    It was in an age that allowed hand checking and knock your ass flat fouls at the rim without too many consequences. There was about half the 3 pt shots being launched as well. If both teams scored over a hundred points in a playoff game, it was an event.

    As opposed to nowadays where you can’t hardly be touched going to the rim without a foul called and if there’s anything resembling hard contact, it’s a flagrant or sometimes ejection. You can’t fairly compare fg effectiveness between the eras. You had to be much stronger with the ball back then and be willing to get the crap knocked out of you if driving to the rack contested.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • RoadDawg55
    RoadDawg55 Member Posts: 30,123
    salemcoog said:

    RoadDawg55 said:

    Tequilla said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    dnc said:

    BleachedAnusDawg said:

    Here's the deal. Take LeBron off the Cavs and they're a 20 win team.

    Take MJ off the Bulls for allegedly gambling and the Bulls still came within a game of the ECF.

    Jordan had an incredible team around him and the GOAT coach.

    This is all basically true.

    Also true that the Bulls won 13 games after Jordan retired the other time.

    Like I already acknowledged they were a very good team around him, much better than most LeBron has played with.

    They weren't great without him.
    Bull winning 13 (actually 17) the year after his second retirement was due to the entire team being gutted and Phil leaving.
    Of course it was.

    The team wasn't that good anymore anyway though. Pippen was a shell of his former self by that point, which is why he never did shit anywhere else.

    That 98 Bulls team was not a great team. MJ won the ring anyway.
    Hold up because this needs to be talked about in the context of the narrative of crowning LBJ for getting to the Finals this year

    You are absolutely right that Scottie’s back was completely F’ed up during the ‘98 season and Playoffs as he only played 44 regular season games. Rodman was going off the rails at points during the season as he started getting removed from the starting lineup. The youngest players in their rotation were 29 year olds Toni Kukoc, Luc Longley, and the immortal Randy Brown.

    Yet, at the age of 34 MJ dropped 32.4 points per game. In the games that really mattered, in typical MJ fashion, he was at his best. Game 7 against Indiana he put down a 28-9-8 performance and willed his team to victory against arguably a better team at that point. Then in the clinching Game 6 against Utah, there is obviously the final sequence that is immortal ... but lost in all of that is MJ’s 45 points.

    That Bulls team was worse than this Cavs team. Yes, the Warriors are better than that Utah team. But for anybody to act like MJ never overcame a deck stacked against him is just flat out wrong.

    What a performance. 29-9-8 against the Indiana Pacers? That's a very average game for LeBron.
    It was in an age that allowed hand checking and knock your ass flat fouls at the rim without too many consequences. There was about half the 3 pt shots being launched as well. If both teams scored over a hundred points in a playoff game, it was an event.

    As opposed to nowadays where you can’t hardly be touched going to the rim without a foul called and if there’s anything resembling hard contact, it’s a flagrant or sometimes ejection. You can’t fairly compare fg effectiveness between the eras. You had to be much stronger with the ball back then and be willing to get the crap knocked out of you if driving to the rack contested.
    Jordan lived at the foul line. Didn't Phoenix shoot like 60 FT's against the Sonics in 93?
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