Offensive Depth for Spring
Comments
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I think it is insane to think of starting a freshman at QB, spring ball or no. Sure, it had worked, but rarely. QB is the most difficult position technically and he carries a disproportionate responsibility. If our head coach goes there he is desperate. It's not going to fucking work. As much as it pains some of you assholes -- the apostle is usually right.
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You're right, we are fucked... But seriously, if you are stating Charles, Tufunga, Shelton And you already said they are Not sucking balls. , Dane Crane Has to be an upgrade 3 years in. Not to mention Eldrenkamp and Brostek. Add Petersen's Guys to that mix, RS Frosh and incoming Frosh I just don't buy it. Saying the offense will be a drekfest is FS. I certainly expected more of this coaching staff
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So, what would YOU do?... go to Walmart QB depth?ApostleofGrief said:I think it is insane to think of starting a freshman at QB, spring ball or no. Sure, it had worked, but rarely. QB is the most difficult position technically and he carries a disproportionate responsibility. If our head coach goes there he is desperate. It's not going to fucking work. As much as it pains some of you assholes -- the apostle is usually right.
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There's really only one player on offense that I'm worried about replacing and that is Hatchie. Coleman Shelton, McGary, Eldrenkamp, and maybe even Andrew Kirkland figure in at one or both of the OT spots. I'm looking forward to seeing Coleman Shelton in his RS-Soph year after getting some starts at RT in 2014 and McGary in spring ball. Does anyone know if McGary and Eldrenkamp are specifically working at LT or RT?
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Ross for sure isn't going back to offense? He's a potential superstar at WR and only through some of the worst offensive coordinating I've ever seen was he neutered and kicked over to defense.
Maddening. -
I agree with you here. That guy was always the first to help the QB up after taking a big hit.HFNY said:There's really only one player on offense that I'm worried about replacing and that is Hatchie. Coleman Shelton, McGary, Eldrenkamp, and maybe even Andrew Kirkland figure in at one or both of the OT spots. I'm looking forward to seeing Coleman Shelton in his RS-Soph year after getting some starts at RT in 2014 and McGary in spring ball. Does anyone know if McGary and Eldrenkamp are specifically working at LT or RT?
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Have you ever actually watched him play?Gladstone said:Ross for sure isn't going back to offense? He's a potential superstar at WR and only through some of the worst offensive coordinating I've ever seen was he neutered and kicked over to defense.
Maddening.
He is Michael Bates 2.0.
I think most of his life he has simply been faster than everyone else. Now that he actually has to work to get open, he cannot get open. -
Ross is pretty amazing with the ball in his hands. He doesn't seem that great at getting the ball in his hands. Most assume it's on the QB and OC. I'm not sure. Receivers aren't easy to watch on TV until the ball gets thrown to them.RavennaDawg said:
Have you ever actually watched him play?Gladstone said:Ross for sure isn't going back to offense? He's a potential superstar at WR and only through some of the worst offensive coordinating I've ever seen was he neutered and kicked over to defense.
Maddening.
He is Michael Bates 2.0.
I think most of his life he has simply been faster than everyone else. Now that he actually has to work to get open, he cannot get open.
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This can be fixed by a few things. Better coaching, better QB, and better OC.RavennaDawg said:
Have you ever actually watched him play?Gladstone said:Ross for sure isn't going back to offense? He's a potential superstar at WR and only through some of the worst offensive coordinating I've ever seen was he neutered and kicked over to defense.
Maddening.
He is Michael Bates 2.0.
I think most of his life he has simply been faster than everyone else. Now that he actually has to work to get open, he cannot get open.
All three of these things should improve this season, but the degree to which they are fixed is unknown at this point. -
he is absolutely electric and a threat to house it every time the ball is in his handsRavennaDawg said:
Have you ever actually watched him play?Gladstone said:Ross for sure isn't going back to offense? He's a potential superstar at WR and only through some of the worst offensive coordinating I've ever seen was he neutered and kicked over to defense.
Maddening.
He is Michael Bates 2.0.
I think most of his life he has simply been faster than everyone else. Now that he actually has to work to get open, he cannot get open.
and he's faster than 99% of DBs
come on -
I agree with you here. That guy was always the first to help the QB up after taking a big hit.
Least he could do - considering how often he had a hand in the QB taking the hit in the first place. -
This line up is not good; a few good players but no offensive line and no QB. Don James could not do much with this kind of talent. I would not be surprised to see this team at 6 - 6. I feel Petersen will get it done. We'll know by the end of year there.
Speaking of Don, he had a losing record his second year. Yeah, I know, "Win are get the fuck out the fuck out, Don." -
No one is disputing what you are saying.Gladstone said:
he is absolutely electric and a threat to house it every time the ball is in his handsRavennaDawg said:
Have you ever actually watched him play?Gladstone said:Ross for sure isn't going back to offense? He's a potential superstar at WR and only through some of the worst offensive coordinating I've ever seen was he neutered and kicked over to defense.
Maddening.
He is Michael Bates 2.0.
I think most of his life he has simply been faster than everyone else. Now that he actually has to work to get open, he cannot get open.
and he's faster than 99% of DBs
come on
I stick by my Michael Bates analogy, a guy who made an NFL All-Decade team in a decade in which he had 7 catches for 120 yards. Because being "absolutely electric and a threat to house it every time the ball is in his hands" is fine if you are a kick returner, but unless you can combine it with "and can get open and has decent hands" it is not worth much for a wr.
When Reggie was being criticized during his junior year, he was quoted saying that he was open every play. And if you watched him, you noticed that he was open every. single. play.
Ross the wr is a guy that you like less and less the more you watch him. If he is still playing wr next year (I hope not) the next time you see him get open via a football move, will be the first. -
The guy is open from the moment he steps out of bed... it helps being small (i.e.sub 6' and having his speed and lateral quickness, neither of which Reggie possessed. I'm not buying that shit, he's never open. I don't even know how you can state 4.55-4.6 Reggie Willams, compares to 4.29 John Ross. They are not even in the same league. Just incase you forgot who are talking about. Like less and less? He was the most dynamic player on offense before injury and OKG doghouse, as a sophomore. Let's give him at least a junior year before judging.RavennaDawg said:
No one is disputing what you are saying.Gladstone said:
he is absolutely electric and a threat to house it every time the ball is in his handsRavennaDawg said:
Have you ever actually watched him play?Gladstone said:Ross for sure isn't going back to offense? He's a potential superstar at WR and only through some of the worst offensive coordinating I've ever seen was he neutered and kicked over to defense.
Maddening.
He is Michael Bates 2.0.
I think most of his life he has simply been faster than everyone else. Now that he actually has to work to get open, he cannot get open.
and he's faster than 99% of DBs
come on
I stick by my Michael Bates analogy, a guy who made an NFL All-Decade team in a decade in which he had 7 catches for 120 yards. Because being "absolutely electric and a threat to house it every time the ball is in his hands" is fine if you are a kick returner, but unless you can combine it with "and can get open and has decent hands" it is not worth much for a wr.
When Reggie was being criticized during his junior year, he was quoted saying that he was open every play. And if you watched him, you noticed that he was open every. single. play.
Ross the wr is a guy that you like less and less the more you watch him. If he is still playing wr next year (I hope not) the next time you see him get open via a football move, will be the first.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR9LQQrwamE
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Didn't Ross de-commit from USC because they wanted him as a DB? I think Ross stays at CB because I wouldn't see him getting many snaps ahead of Pettis or Lenius (our only big WR with experience).
By no means was I saying Hatchie was a stud but we could do worse at LT in 2015. Maybe they'll move Coleman Shelton over since he was the first OT off the bench after Riva went out. Or do they keep Shelton at RT and put in McGary at LT?
KJCS or Browning can't be worse than Miles was leading the offense and we didn't really lose any skill guys of note. We still have Mickens (really a #2 though) and bigger WRs Pettis and Lenius (6'5") should be good as sophs. All of the RBs are back and Dotson and / or McClatcher could provide an extra dimension.
So if the OL can improve despite losing some vets (though if a vet sucks, does it matter?), it's hard not to see a new QB (with better decision making and a stronger arm than Miles) leading to an improvement in the offense.
I just have no idea about the OL except for Charles starting at LG, Tufunga starting at C or RG, and Shelton starting at one of the OT spots. -
I make two posts comparing the guy to an NFL All-Decade kickoff returner, while claiming he is not very good at wide receiver.
You respond by showing a clip of him returning a kickoff. -
RavennaDawg said:
I make two posts comparing the guy to an NFL All-Decade kickoff returner, while claiming he is not very good at wide receiver.
You respond by showing a clip of him returning a kickoff.
Actually I said look at his speed by showing the video. There is probably 1 or 2 corners who can actually stay with him in D1. Saying he is not very good at wide receiver because he can't get open is Section14aFS.
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Again, I compare John Ross to a guy who was a poor wide receiver despite being an all-time great kickoff returner and an Olympic Bronze Medalist in the 200, and you respond with "...look at his speed".NeGgaPlEaSe said:RavennaDawg said:I make two posts comparing the guy to an NFL All-Decade kickoff returner, while claiming he is not very good at wide receiver.
You respond by showing a clip of him returning a kickoff.
Actually I said look at his speed by showing the video. There is probably 1 or 2 corners who can actually stay with him in D1. Saying he is not very good at wide receiver because he can't get open is Section14aFS.
You do know that when Hooker entered the Husky HOF last year, it was not for football?
Getting open and catching the ball is kinda the entire point of being a wide receiver. If Ross can use his speed to get open, as I am sure he did in highschool, that is great. If he is in a situation where his speed cannot get him open, then he is in trouble.
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He's open literally every time he runs a fly route, for starters.
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I can tell this is going nowhere fast, you have no basis in your FS argument. Again, the guy can not be covered by one person, he's too fast. You comparing Ross to Hooker is getting Doogman FS. The Reggie Williams comparison was horrible, but the Hooker comparison is FS. Ross is shifty and fast and a threat to take it to the house every time he gets the ball. Don't forget he was injured early in the season and had surgery. He played the season on a bad wheel and still was the fastest player on the field. Saying he wasn't open because there is an entire defense keying on him because there is no run game, no tight end and no blocking is beyond FSRavennaDawg said:
Again, I compare John Ross to a guy who was a poor wide receiver despite being an all-time great kickoff returner and an Olympic Bronze Medalist in the 200, and you respond with "...look at his speed".NeGgaPlEaSe said:RavennaDawg said:I make two posts comparing the guy to an NFL All-Decade kickoff returner, while claiming he is not very good at wide receiver.
You respond by showing a clip of him returning a kickoff.
Actually I said look at his speed by showing the video. There is probably 1 or 2 corners who can actually stay with him in D1. Saying he is not very good at wide receiver because he can't get open is Section14aFS.
You do know that when Hooker entered the Husky HOF last year, it was not for football?
Getting open and catching the ball is kinda the entire point of being a wide receiver. If Ross can use his speed to get open, as I am sure he did in highschool, that is great. If he is in a situation where his speed cannot get him open, then he is in trouble. -
Being fast doesn't mean you can just get open by running a fly route every single time. I personally feel his potential is so much greater as a corner.
His get off on the line is not good, he doesn't run good routes at all and he doesn't block well.
I like him coming in for a few plays on offense when it is tough for the defense to recognize in a no huddle situation. Much easier to fit his skills on offense when you do that with him. -
Ross would outrun cyler's range. If the qb can get him the ball deep (like the hawaii game
) then he needs to be a wr. If not (god help us) then he stays at corner, where the nfl money is better. -
Above you can see Ross' receiving stats for 2014. They are separated into two categories: gains over and under 50 yards. He is clearly a home run threat, with a majority of his receiving yards being on plays > 50 yards.
The non-big play stats are not bad, but not great either. I'm not throwing out his big plays to make a poont, just separating to evaluate. Note: the 11 incomplete passes could be split between over/under 50 yards...there is no record of how many yards incomplete passes are.
One interesting thing I found (shown above) is that Ross was targeted four times on 3rd down (3 receptions, one incomplete). Of those 3 receptions, UW needed 14, 22, and 8 yards for a first down, while the completions were for 1, 16, and 6 yards, respectively. Meaning, of the four targets on 3rd down, ZERO resulted in a first down. Of course..QB, Jonathan Schmith, blocking, other receivers not being open, injuries, climate change, Ossai, etc. could ALL be factors in determining why UW didn't convert on first down.
I would say that Ross's elusiveness and speed makes him a deep/big-play threat, but in short or intermediate yardage situations he is not a guy you want to rely on. Definitely worth three wins all by himself, though. -
There is bias in breaking down his stats into those two categories and arriving at those conclusions.Dardanus said:
Above you can see Ross' receiving stats for 2014. They are separated into two categories: gains over and under 50 yards. He is clearly a home run threat, with a majority of his receiving yards being on plays > 50 yards.
The non-big play stats are not bad, but not great either. I'm not throwing out his big plays to make a poont, just separating to evaluate. Note: the 11 incomplete passes could be split between over/under 50 yards...there is no record of how many yards incomplete passes are.
One interesting thing I found (shown above) is that Ross was targeted four times on 3rd down (3 receptions, one incomplete). Of those 3 receptions, UW needed 14, 22, and 8 yards for a first down, while the completions were for 1, 16, and 6 yards, respectively. Meaning, of the four targets on 3rd down, ZERO resulted in a first down. Of course..QB, Jonathan Schmith, blocking, other receivers not being open, injuries, climate change, Ossai, etc. could ALL be factors in determining why UW didn't convert on first down.
I would say that Ross's elusiveness and speed makes him a deep/big-play threat, but in short or intermediate yardage situations he is not a guy you want to rely on. Definitely worth three wins all by himself, though.
A more appropriate analysis would be to look at where the ball was thrown and what Ross did with the ball after the catch (YAC). For example, in the Apple Cup, Lindquist threw a 50 yard bomb to Ross in the end zone and dropped it, yet that incompletion is not listened in the >50 yard category and placed in the <50 yard category. Additionally, two of those >50 yard plays were TDs that he had were caught at the LOS and turned into TDs.
(play at 1:35): http://www.gohuskies.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=3470227&db_oem_id=30200
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQxHGaUdkD0
I think it'd be better to look at throwing the ball to Ross between the LOS to 5 yards down field, 6-19 yards, and 20+ yards to get a better idea of how he is in the short and intermediate game, because as those three examples show, there is incomplete information in how that data is presented and used.
As for the third downs, we were 40.7% on third last year. However, all those thirds listed for Ross were third and long, meaning we shouldn't compare those third and longs to overall third down percentage, since third and long will usually have a much lower percentage than third and medium and third and short. Hell, going 3/4 with an average of 7.6 yards on third down would be pretty damn good if not for the fact that they were third and 14s and third and 22s in there. -
Re incomplete passes: I have no way of knowing whether incomplete passes were 50 yard bombs or bubble screens because that information is not recorded (which I already said, fucko). But I do agree that it's not really fair to determine his short/intermediate game isn't good because we don't have enough info.whatshouldicareabout said:
There is bias in breaking down his stats into those two categories and arriving at those conclusions.Dardanus said:
Above you can see Ross' receiving stats for 2014. They are separated into two categories: gains over and under 50 yards. He is clearly a home run threat, with a majority of his receiving yards being on plays > 50 yards.
The non-big play stats are not bad, but not great either. I'm not throwing out his big plays to make a poont, just separating to evaluate. Note: the 11 incomplete passes could be split between over/under 50 yards...there is no record of how many yards incomplete passes are.
One interesting thing I found (shown above) is that Ross was targeted four times on 3rd down (3 receptions, one incomplete). Of those 3 receptions, UW needed 14, 22, and 8 yards for a first down, while the completions were for 1, 16, and 6 yards, respectively. Meaning, of the four targets on 3rd down, ZERO resulted in a first down. Of course..QB, Jonathan Schmith, blocking, other receivers not being open, injuries, climate change, Ossai, etc. could ALL be factors in determining why UW didn't convert on first down.
I would say that Ross's elusiveness and speed makes him a deep/big-play threat, but in short or intermediate yardage situations he is not a guy you want to rely on. Definitely worth three wins all by himself, though.
A more appropriate analysis would be to look at where the ball was thrown and what Ross did with the ball after the catch (YAC). For example, in the Apple Cup, Lindquist threw a 50 yard bomb to Ross in the end zone and dropped it, yet that incompletion is not listened in the >50 yard category and placed in the <50 yard category. Additionally, two of those >50 yard plays were TDs that he had were caught at the LOS and turned into TDs.
(play at 1:35): http://www.gohuskies.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=3470227&db_oem_id=30200
andhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQxHGaUdkD0
I think it'd be better to look at throwing the ball to Ross between the LOS to 5 yards down field, 6-19 yards, and 20+ yards to get a better idea of how he is in the short and intermediate game, because as those three examples show, there is incomplete information in how that data is presented and used.
As for the third downs, we were 40.7% on third last year. However, all those thirds listed for Ross were third and long, meaning we shouldn't compare those third and longs to overall third down percentage, since third and long will usually have a much lower percentage than third and medium and third and short. Hell, going 3/4 with an average of 7.6 yards on third down would be pretty damn good if not for the fact that they were third and 14s and third and 22s in there.
YAC is a good measure, but unfortunately I don't have any of that data. I'd love to look at it if you could point me to a good source, though.
I understand and agree that 3rd down conversion rate is low, especially on 3rd and long. 3rd down conversion rate on plays to Ross were especially low (0%). -
I'm enjoying this thread and see both sides....may I suggest a 7/11 slap fight;)
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Its really not that hard to cover a guy, no matter how fast, when he's only ever a threat on deep balls. Also, getting open against a zone defense has always been about more than just speed. I like Ross at CB and kick returner.
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My argument is based on his performance on the football field. Novel concept, I know.NeGgaPlEaSe said:
I can tell this is going nowhere fast, you have no basis in your FS argument. Again, the guy can not be covered by one person, he's too fast. You comparing Ross to Hooker is getting Doogman FS. The Reggie Williams comparison was horrible, but the Hooker comparison is FS. Ross is shifty and fast and a threat to take it to the house every time he gets the ball. Don't forget he was injured early in the season and had surgery. He played the season on a bad wheel and still was the fastest player on the field. Saying he wasn't open because there is an entire defense keying on him because there is no run game, no tight end and no blocking is beyond FSRavennaDawg said:
Again, I compare John Ross to a guy who was a poor wide receiver despite being an all-time great kickoff returner and an Olympic Bronze Medalist in the 200, and you respond with "...look at his speed".NeGgaPlEaSe said:RavennaDawg said:I make two posts comparing the guy to an NFL All-Decade kickoff returner, while claiming he is not very good at wide receiver.
You respond by showing a clip of him returning a kickoff.
Actually I said look at his speed by showing the video. There is probably 1 or 2 corners who can actually stay with him in D1. Saying he is not very good at wide receiver because he can't get open is Section14aFS.
You do know that when Hooker entered the Husky HOF last year, it was not for football?
Getting open and catching the ball is kinda the entire point of being a wide receiver. If Ross can use his speed to get open, as I am sure he did in highschool, that is great. If he is in a situation where his speed cannot get him open, then he is in trouble.
JaWarren Hooker could not be covered by one person. He was too fast. Sam Graddy/Ron Brown/Renaldo Neihmiah/Jonny Lam Jones/Michael Bates could not be covered by one person. They were too fast. Fast, but not very good wide receivers.
The guy is great at returning kickoffs. He is very fast. He is not a very good wide receiver. As you so astutely pointed out, he is "a threat to take it to the house every time he gets the ball". It's the getting the ball that is his problem. When the other team literally kicks the ball to him, and gives him a 60 yard head start, he can make plays.
Reggie Williams could get open. Not as fast. There is more to being a receiver than being a track star.
No one is disputing your thesis that John Ross is fast.
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RavennaDawg said:
My argument is based on his performance on the football field. Novel concept, I know.NeGgaPlEaSe said:
I can tell this is going nowhere fast, you have no basis in your FS argument. Again, the guy can not be covered by one person, he's too fast. You comparing Ross to Hooker is getting Doogman FS. The Reggie Williams comparison was horrible, but the Hooker comparison is FS. Ross is shifty and fast and a threat to take it to the house every time he gets the ball. Don't forget he was injured early in the season and had surgery. He played the season on a bad wheel and still was the fastest player on the field. Saying he wasn't open because there is an entire defense keying on him because there is no run game, no tight end and no blocking is beyond FSRavennaDawg said:
Again, I compare John Ross to a guy who was a poor wide receiver despite being an all-time great kickoff returner and an Olympic Bronze Medalist in the 200, and you respond with "...look at his speed".NeGgaPlEaSe said:RavennaDawg said:I make two posts comparing the guy to an NFL All-Decade kickoff returner, while claiming he is not very good at wide receiver.
You respond by showing a clip of him returning a kickoff.
Actually I said look at his speed by showing the video. There is probably 1 or 2 corners who can actually stay with him in D1. Saying he is not very good at wide receiver because he can't get open is Section14aFS.
You do know that when Hooker entered the Husky HOF last year, it was not for football?
Getting open and catching the ball is kinda the entire point of being a wide receiver. If Ross can use his speed to get open, as I am sure he did in highschool, that is great. If he is in a situation where his speed cannot get him open, then he is in trouble.
JaWarren Hooker could not be covered by one person. He was too fast. Sam Graddy/Ron Brown/Renaldo Neihmiah/Jonny Lam Jones/Michael Bates could not be covered by one person. They were too fast. Fast, but not very good wide receivers.
The guy is great at returning kickoffs. He is very fast. He is not a very good wide receiver. As you so astutely pointed out, he is "a threat to take it to the house every time he gets the ball". It's the getting the ball that is his problem. When the other team literally kicks the ball to him, and gives him a 60 yard head start, he can make plays.
Reggie Williams could get open. Not as fast. There is more to being a receiver than being a track star.
No one is disputing your thesis that John Ross is fast.
Fast/ quick? two entirely different things.... If you said Ross can't get off the fucking line you might have a halfway valid argument. But with the PAC 12 refs and the holding calls, guess what? Getting open in a zone? Well having a Qb who can't throw the ball into Lake Washington without hitting the Yacht club first may play a part in that. Or a running game that no one respects -
Well if Ross isn't a good route runner, why did he play outside WR 90% of the time? The QB's last year could rarely get the ball out there anyways.
