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    GrundleStiltzkinGrundleStiltzkin Member Posts: 61,481
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    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    There's this concept of negative externality, a negative consequence born out by society at large rather than simply the economic actors themselves.

    If there is a large enough negative externality this is precisely where you DO have a role for government to play. To either mitigate that negative externality to society at large or to impose the costs back on the original economic actors.

    In the case of the military private security would present a rather large negative externality of whoever is paying for the security would have an out-size amount of power over society among many other obvious negatives.

    Hence, we have a rather large net positive outcome despite all of the inefficiency, waste, and corruption of a government run military. This is literally, "This is a terrible system but we don't have any better option."
    Thank you for the fancy words. Cosigned.
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    GrundleStiltzkinGrundleStiltzkin Member Posts: 61,481
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    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    A couple of other points that didn't fit into my other post.

    Despite the many bad actors, by and large, those in the military serve for altruistic purposes which is why we end up with a bad ass military, even though, it is stupid expensive. I've yet to meet a service member who would disagree that the military industrial complex is a corrupt and wasteful institution.

    We should be VERY watchful of when we do make exception and get government involved. As you said, gtfo of lots of bullshit wars, let people find out what it's like to have to fend for themselves. I love being lectured about American colonialism and hegemony while the world collectively hides behind our skirts from the CCP, Russia, or the myriad of other bad actor states.

    And finally to your point, there is a conservative blind spot for military spending, but that's also because collective defense IS one of the only actual spelled out powers of the Fed and roles that only a handful of wing nut would completely disagree with. It's an argument of scale and scope rather than the basic principle. I think many conservatives would be willing to cut defense spending in good faith but for the left it's never a matter of cut defense and give the money back to taxpayers, it's defund and redistribute to other government agencies.
    All the best bumperstickers are intellectually bankrupt.

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    GrundleStiltzkinGrundleStiltzkin Member Posts: 61,481
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    Swaye said:

    This thread is the Tug done right.

    FUCK YOU BABY KILLER!!!!¡¡1111111
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    YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 33,882
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    Swaye's Wigwam

    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    Here's how I look at the military. The military is rightly imbued with the monopoly of force against foreign actors. As a monopoly and a government entity, it will be bloated, inefficient and wasteful. Weº should constantly endeavor to limit that as much as possible. At the same tim, replacing the military with a non-governmental solution is essentially impossible. Therein lies the tension.

    Until the Korean War, the US military vacillated betwixt too small, just right, and too big. It's always fascinated me that 5 years after assembling the greatest military force the world had ever seen, weº struggled to scrape together a competent and equipped ground force to send to Korea. Since then, @TheChart has been pretty steady upwards.




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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,741
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    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    Here's how I look at the military. The military is rightly imbued with the monopoly of force against foreign actors. As a monopoly and a government entity, it will be bloated, inefficient and wasteful. Weº should constantly endeavor to limit that as much as possible. At the same tim, replacing the military with a non-governmental solution is essentially impossible. Therein lies the tension.

    Until the Korean War, the US military vacillated betwixt too small, just right, and too big. It's always fascinated me that 5 years after assembling the greatest military force the world had ever seen, weº struggled to scrape together a competent and equipped ground force to send to Korea. Since then, @TheChart has been pretty steady upwards.
    If history has taught us anything, it's that nothing is impossible where capitalist principles are involved.*

    *maybe
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,741
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    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.

    That's the external manifestation of the paradox of prosperity. When weº barely have a pot to piss in, we don't care and can't care about some internecine conflict 10,000 miles away. More wealth, more capability, we have more capacity and chinclination to fix problems of increasingly smaller proportion. It takes structural limitations and discerning leadership to avoid that.
    During tims of plenty, I'd like to see us use that tax money/capital to reinvest in American infrastructure/education/other domestic issues.

    Takes discipline.
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    GrundleStiltzkinGrundleStiltzkin Member Posts: 61,481
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    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    Here's how I look at the military. The military is rightly imbued with the monopoly of force against foreign actors. As a monopoly and a government entity, it will be bloated, inefficient and wasteful. Weº should constantly endeavor to limit that as much as possible. At the same tim, replacing the military with a non-governmental solution is essentially impossible. Therein lies the tension.

    Until the Korean War, the US military vacillated betwixt too small, just right, and too big. It's always fascinated me that 5 years after assembling the greatest military force the world had ever seen, weº struggled to scrape together a competent and equipped ground force to send to Korea. Since then, @TheChart has been pretty steady upwards.




    Yeah, guessed someone would put that out there. You're the history guym, so I'll defer. However, as I understand it, the nuke guys ascended between 1946 and 1950, whilst conventional ground forces were neglected. What ground divisions we had were largely tied down in European occupation duty.
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    LebamDawgLebamDawg Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,537
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    One thing that keeps government run items on the extremely expensive side is tracking manufacturing.
    From the place of origin (which could be as simple as where the ore is excavated) to the last person touching the item where it is used/installed.

    A bolt used by the military is a very expensive item when you can buy the same item at the hardware store for $1.
    Creating a MIL-SPEC for a corkscrew may seem outrageous to some but to the government, well hell that is outrageous.
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    GrundleStiltzkinGrundleStiltzkin Member Posts: 61,481
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    LebamDawg said:

    One thing that keeps government run items on the extremely expensive side is tracking manufacturing.
    From the place of origin (which could be as simple as where the ore is excavated) to the last person touching the item where it is used/installed.

    A bolt used by the military is a very expensive item when you can buy the same item at the hardware store for $1.
    Creating a MIL-SPEC for a corkscrew may seem outrageous to some but to the government, well hell that is outrageous.

    I've always thought that slush gets directed toward black programs. I dunno, maybe that's just Tom Clancy shit.
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    PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 41,798
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    Swaye said:

    This thread is the Tug done right.

    No joobs.

    Sad.

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    YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 33,882
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    Swaye's Wigwam

    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    Here's how I look at the military. The military is rightly imbued with the monopoly of force against foreign actors. As a monopoly and a government entity, it will be bloated, inefficient and wasteful. Weº should constantly endeavor to limit that as much as possible. At the same tim, replacing the military with a non-governmental solution is essentially impossible. Therein lies the tension.

    Until the Korean War, the US military vacillated betwixt too small, just right, and too big. It's always fascinated me that 5 years after assembling the greatest military force the world had ever seen, weº struggled to scrape together a competent and equipped ground force to send to Korea. Since then, @TheChart has been pretty steady upwards.




    Yeah, guessed someone would put that out there. You're the history guym, so I'll defer. However, as I understand it, the nuke guys ascended between 1946 and 1950, whilst conventional ground forces were neglected. What ground divisions we had were largely tied down in European occupation duty.
    Post WWII we? thought our nuke monopoly would enable us to do defense on the cheap. Out chintelligence thought the Ruskies wouldn't get the bomb until the mid to late 50s at the earliest. Then Mao demonstrated the bomb doesn't stop proxy wars. Were it not for Stalin and Mao there might never have been a MI complex.
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    LebamDawgLebamDawg Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,537
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    Swaye's Wigwam
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    PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 41,798
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,741
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    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    A couple of other points that didn't fit into my other post.

    Despite the many bad actors, by and large, those in the military serve for altruistic purposes which is why we end up with a bad ass military, even though, it is stupid expensive. I've yet to meet a service member who would disagree that the military industrial complex is a corrupt and wasteful institution.

    We should be VERY watchful of when we do make exceptions and get government involved. As you said, gtfo of lots of bullshit wars, let people find out what it's like to have to fend for themselves. I love being lectured about American colonialism and hegemony while the world collectively hides behind our skirts from the CCP, Russia, or the myriad of other bad actor states.

    And finally to your point, there is a conservative blind spot for military spending, but that's also because collective defense IS one of the only actual spelled out powers of the Fed and roles that only a handful of wing nuts would completely disagree with. It's an argument of scale and scope rather than the basic principle. I think many conservatives would be willing to cut defense spending in good faith but for the left it's never a matter of cut defense and give the money back to taxpayers, it's defund and redistribute to other government agencies.

    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    A couple of other points that didn't fit into my other post.

    Despite the many bad actors, by and large, those in the military serve for altruistic purposes which is why we end up with a bad ass military, even though, it is stupid expensive. I've yet to meet a service member who would disagree that the military industrial complex is a corrupt and wasteful institution.

    We should be VERY watchful of when we do make exceptions and get government involved. As you said, gtfo of lots of bullshit wars, let people find out what it's like to have to fend for themselves. I love being lectured about American colonialism and hegemony while the world collectively hides behind our skirts from the CCP, Russia, or the myriad of other bad actor states.

    And finally to your point, there is a conservative blind spot for military spending, but that's also because collective defense IS one of the only actual spelled out powers of the Fed and roles that only a handful of wing nuts would completely disagree with. It's an argument of scale and scope rather than the basic principle. I think many conservatives would be willing to cut defense spending in good faith but for the left it's never a matter of cut defense and give the money back to taxpayers, it's defund and redistribute to other government agencies.
    Good post. I would take the defense cut and be on board with a reallocation if I had any faith that it wouldn't be squandered. But I don't.

    But fuck, I'd be on board with using it to fund SS and Medicare, two of the only social programs I would defend because I think we'd be in such a bad way as a society if it were to disappear. But not welfare and related programs sans major reforms to those programs. And for @Swaye , I might throw a few trill to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Fuck, why not?

    Totally and completely agree with your comment about being lectured by those who live under our skirt. I actually got into it with one of my kids the other night. She lost that one. Most kids are the age of 30 have no idea our role in the collective effort to keep the globe from being a complete shit show, as opposed to the mostly complete shit show it is. They also don't seem to understand what Russian & China are capable of doing if left unchecked. Fuch those guysms.
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,741
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    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    There's this concept of negative externality, a negative consequence born out by society at large rather than simply the economic actors themselves.

    If there is a large enough negative externality this is precisely where you DO have a role for government to play. To either mitigate that negative externality to society at large or to impose the costs back on the original economic actors.

    In the case of the military private security would present a rather large negative externality of whoever is paying for the security would have an out-size amount of power over society among many other obvious negatives.

    Hence, we have a rather large net positive outcome despite all of the inefficiency, waste, and corruption of a government run military. This is literally, "This is a terrible system but we don't have any better option."
    I can see that. A private military would be akin to the popular Roman general who lives most of his life outside the gates of Rome with his army ... to whom does that army really pay fielty when the shit hits the fan? The general or the Emperor/Senate?
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    GrundleStiltzkinGrundleStiltzkin Member Posts: 61,481
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    Standard Supporter

    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    There's this concept of negative externality, a negative consequence born out by society at large rather than simply the economic actors themselves.

    If there is a large enough negative externality this is precisely where you DO have a role for government to play. To either mitigate that negative externality to society at large or to impose the costs back on the original economic actors.

    In the case of the military private security would present a rather large negative externality of whoever is paying for the security would have an out-size amount of power over society among many other obvious negatives.

    Hence, we have a rather large net positive outcome despite all of the inefficiency, waste, and corruption of a government run military. This is literally, "This is a terrible system but we don't have any better option."
    I can see that. A private military would be akin to the popular Roman general who lives most of his life outside the gates of Rome with his army ... to whom does that army really pay fielty when the shit hits the fan? The general or the Emperor/Senate?
    * fealty.

    But chinned for the good try, good effort. It's a great word.
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,741
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    edited August 2020

    Swaye said:

    HHusky said:

    Swaye said:

    The government sucks at everything it touches.

    Maybe Elon will build us a military.
    I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
    This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?

    Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
    There's this concept of negative externality, a negative consequence born out by society at large rather than simply the economic actors themselves.

    If there is a large enough negative externality this is precisely where you DO have a role for government to play. To either mitigate that negative externality to society at large or to impose the costs back on the original economic actors.

    In the case of the military private security would present a rather large negative externality of whoever is paying for the security would have an out-size amount of power over society among many other obvious negatives.

    Hence, we have a rather large net positive outcome despite all of the inefficiency, waste, and corruption of a government run military. This is literally, "This is a terrible system but we don't have any better option."
    I can see that. A private military would be akin to the popular Roman general who lives most of his life outside the gates of Rome with his army ... to whom does that army really pay fielty when the shit hits the fan? The general or the Emperor/Senate?
    * fealty.

    But chinned for the good try, good effort. It's a great word.
    I thought you were playing polo!

    You know I'm ESL damnit!!
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