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Israeli doctor in Italy: We no longer help those over 60
Comments
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Thick as a fucking Brick. Wow. When you miss a point, you go all-out in missing it.HHusky said:
We are manufacturing more ventilators. That doesn’t make the supply of ventilators infinite. Did you graduate college?TurdBomber said:
Some men look at these situations and say "Let's Build More Ventilators."HHusky said:
When you run out of ventilators, someone who needs a ventilator dies. It’s true everywhere on earth. Which part of that confuses you?Bendintheriver said:
The average age of life expectancy in Italy is 83.4 years. If my rounding up to 85 is a win for you in this argument I think everyone else can understand my point. Socialists determining that 60 year olds who will on average live another 23.33 years will die due to lack of care or caring is very soylent greenish and liberal elitist. It means your socialist healthcare nirvana has failed at its very roots.HHusky said:
I guess there was once some golden age of American medicine when everyone lived till 85. When was that?Bendintheriver said:
Ahh yes. When socialized medicine fails those it brags that it protects, you always get rats with the same old worn out line "we all have to go sometime".HHusky said:
Never mind those that are 60 are going to live another quarter century. To rats it is their socialized medicine or nothing. Rats like HH truly don't believe they will ever go without healthcare no matter what age. They truly believe they are the elites and dying at a relatively young age is for the little people.
Other ineffectual resentful types, like yourself, relish the doomsday scenarios, because Schadenfreude is all you have.
Impressive, in a strange way. -
Most of your impressions seem to trend to the strange anyway, so no surprises.TurdBomber said:
Thick as a fucking Brick. Wow. When you miss a point, you go all-out in missing it.HHusky said:
We are manufacturing more ventilators. That doesn’t make the supply of ventilators infinite. Did you graduate college?TurdBomber said:
Some men look at these situations and say "Let's Build More Ventilators."HHusky said:
When you run out of ventilators, someone who needs a ventilator dies. It’s true everywhere on earth. Which part of that confuses you?Bendintheriver said:
The average age of life expectancy in Italy is 83.4 years. If my rounding up to 85 is a win for you in this argument I think everyone else can understand my point. Socialists determining that 60 year olds who will on average live another 23.33 years will die due to lack of care or caring is very soylent greenish and liberal elitist. It means your socialist healthcare nirvana has failed at its very roots.HHusky said:
I guess there was once some golden age of American medicine when everyone lived till 85. When was that?Bendintheriver said:
Ahh yes. When socialized medicine fails those it brags that it protects, you always get rats with the same old worn out line "we all have to go sometime".HHusky said:
Never mind those that are 60 are going to live another quarter century. To rats it is their socialized medicine or nothing. Rats like HH truly don't believe they will ever go without healthcare no matter what age. They truly believe they are the elites and dying at a relatively young age is for the little people.
Other ineffectual resentful types, like yourself, relish the doomsday scenarios, because Schadenfreude is all you have.
Impressive, in a strange way. -
More likely your frequently-confirmed room temperature IQ.HHusky said:
Most of your impressions seem to trend to the strange anyway, so no surprises.TurdBomber said:
Thick as a fucking Brick. Wow. When you miss a point, you go all-out in missing it.HHusky said:
We are manufacturing more ventilators. That doesn’t make the supply of ventilators infinite. Did you graduate college?TurdBomber said:
Some men look at these situations and say "Let's Build More Ventilators."HHusky said:
When you run out of ventilators, someone who needs a ventilator dies. It’s true everywhere on earth. Which part of that confuses you?Bendintheriver said:
The average age of life expectancy in Italy is 83.4 years. If my rounding up to 85 is a win for you in this argument I think everyone else can understand my point. Socialists determining that 60 year olds who will on average live another 23.33 years will die due to lack of care or caring is very soylent greenish and liberal elitist. It means your socialist healthcare nirvana has failed at its very roots.HHusky said:
I guess there was once some golden age of American medicine when everyone lived till 85. When was that?Bendintheriver said:
Ahh yes. When socialized medicine fails those it brags that it protects, you always get rats with the same old worn out line "we all have to go sometime".HHusky said:
Never mind those that are 60 are going to live another quarter century. To rats it is their socialized medicine or nothing. Rats like HH truly don't believe they will ever go without healthcare no matter what age. They truly believe they are the elites and dying at a relatively young age is for the little people.
Other ineffectual resentful types, like yourself, relish the doomsday scenarios, because Schadenfreude is all you have.
Impressive, in a strange way. -
Meanwhile a presumably grown man calling another grown man "Daddy" is perfectly normal to you. Fag.HHusky said:
Most of your impressions seem to trend to the strange anyway, so no surprises.TurdBomber said:
Thick as a fucking Brick. Wow. When you miss a point, you go all-out in missing it.HHusky said:
We are manufacturing more ventilators. That doesn’t make the supply of ventilators infinite. Did you graduate college?TurdBomber said:
Some men look at these situations and say "Let's Build More Ventilators."HHusky said:
When you run out of ventilators, someone who needs a ventilator dies. It’s true everywhere on earth. Which part of that confuses you?Bendintheriver said:
The average age of life expectancy in Italy is 83.4 years. If my rounding up to 85 is a win for you in this argument I think everyone else can understand my point. Socialists determining that 60 year olds who will on average live another 23.33 years will die due to lack of care or caring is very soylent greenish and liberal elitist. It means your socialist healthcare nirvana has failed at its very roots.HHusky said:
I guess there was once some golden age of American medicine when everyone lived till 85. When was that?Bendintheriver said:
Ahh yes. When socialized medicine fails those it brags that it protects, you always get rats with the same old worn out line "we all have to go sometime".HHusky said:
Never mind those that are 60 are going to live another quarter century. To rats it is their socialized medicine or nothing. Rats like HH truly don't believe they will ever go without healthcare no matter what age. They truly believe they are the elites and dying at a relatively young age is for the little people.
Other ineffectual resentful types, like yourself, relish the doomsday scenarios, because Schadenfreude is all you have.
Impressive, in a strange way. -
It's a really fucked system. So Junior wants to keep Mama alive for another two weeks while Coed Daughter with Daddy Issues in Pullman can finish finals, bone a few football players and have shots at the Coug before coming home to say goodbye to Nana. Meanwhile, Nana is choking in her own vomit and being intubated and fed through a tube with round the clock care. Good times with the morphine drip rocking 24/7.TurdBomber said:HHusky said:
WA State recovers umpteen millions per year in end-of-life Medicaid costs incurred by elderly dying patients by putting a Medicaid Lien on the deceased's primary residence. Obamacare boosted the State's rights and power to do so. So if you want your kids to get the house, you better start giving it away tax-free each year in your 50s and shelter the fuck out of your wealth.PurpleThrobber said:
To some degree, the US healthcare system needs to address this end of life stuff irregardless*. Horrific amount of resources are spent in the last days of life. We don't do death well in this country at all.UWhuskytskeet said:You guys are delusional if you don't think those same choices aren't about to be decided here.
I spent some time yesterday chatting with my neighbor who is an ER doc (at an appropriate distance). His hospital isn't extremely stressed at this point but he has seen a rise in the 'sniffles' kind of patients. Fortunately, he also said the off-site testing facilities in the region have also probably sheltered them a bit otherwise he'd have expected a full-on blitz on the ER with every Tom, Dick and Harry with a cold. In this area, 93% of the people tested are coming back negative - which just means the symptoms are pretty similar to cold/flu season.
That led to our discussion of end of life philosophy in US medicine. He was pretty clinical and said once a person is into their mid-80's, if they are in the hospital, they are pretty well gonna die. He says the staff can predict with relative certainty on who is going to die the minute they walk in. From a personal standpoint, he is conflicted as far as providing treatment to prolong life at the family's wishes and what is actually best for the patient in terms of suffering.
Maybe the whole COVID thing will cause a thorough examination of our medical system, prioritization of needs and some other reforms/re-thinking that needs to take place. Maybe, just maybe, the sheeple will also wake the fuck up to the scam being perpetrated on them by their 'leaders' and vote them the fuck out.
Then the state funds all this shit and puts a lien on Junior's probable only inheritance asset from which he was hoping to sell and pay off boning daughters crushing student debt from her 6 years dicking ballers on the Palouse.
It's fucked up.
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Literally no-one I share this with knows it's the law, or that Obamacare doubled-down on it. Funny how these things are never ever discussed on the campaign trail or in debates. Almost like they don't want people to know, until it's too late.PurpleThrobber said:
It's a really fucked system. So Junior wants to keep Mama alive for another two weeks while Coed Daughter with Daddy Issues in Pullman can finish finals, bone a few football players and have shots at the Coug before coming home to say goodbye to Nana. Meanwhile, Nana is choking in her own vomit and being intubated and fed through a tube with round the clock care. Good times with the morphine drip rocking 24/7.TurdBomber said:HHusky said:
WA State recovers umpteen millions per year in end-of-life Medicaid costs incurred by elderly dying patients by putting a Medicaid Lien on the deceased's primary residence. Obamacare boosted the State's rights and power to do so. So if you want your kids to get the house, you better start giving it away tax-free each year in your 50s and shelter the fuck out of your wealth.PurpleThrobber said:
To some degree, the US healthcare system needs to address this end of life stuff irregardless*. Horrific amount of resources are spent in the last days of life. We don't do death well in this country at all.UWhuskytskeet said:You guys are delusional if you don't think those same choices aren't about to be decided here.
I spent some time yesterday chatting with my neighbor who is an ER doc (at an appropriate distance). His hospital isn't extremely stressed at this point but he has seen a rise in the 'sniffles' kind of patients. Fortunately, he also said the off-site testing facilities in the region have also probably sheltered them a bit otherwise he'd have expected a full-on blitz on the ER with every Tom, Dick and Harry with a cold. In this area, 93% of the people tested are coming back negative - which just means the symptoms are pretty similar to cold/flu season.
That led to our discussion of end of life philosophy in US medicine. He was pretty clinical and said once a person is into their mid-80's, if they are in the hospital, they are pretty well gonna die. He says the staff can predict with relative certainty on who is going to die the minute they walk in. From a personal standpoint, he is conflicted as far as providing treatment to prolong life at the family's wishes and what is actually best for the patient in terms of suffering.
Maybe the whole COVID thing will cause a thorough examination of our medical system, prioritization of needs and some other reforms/re-thinking that needs to take place. Maybe, just maybe, the sheeple will also wake the fuck up to the scam being perpetrated on them by their 'leaders' and vote them the fuck out.
Then the state funds all this shit and puts a lien on Junior's probable only inheritance asset from which he was hoping to sell and pay off boning daughters crushing student debt from her 6 years dicking ballers on the Palouse.
It's fucked up. -
Italy fulfilling Gov. Sarah Palin's death panel prophecy
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/03/italy_fulfilling_gov_sarah_palins_death_panel_prophecy.html -
Always about CUOG co-eds with Daddy issues with the Throbber. Always.PurpleThrobber said:
It's a really fucked system. So Junior wants to keep Mama alive for another two weeks while Coed Daughter with Daddy Issues in Pullman can finish finals, bone a few football players and have shots at the Coug before coming home to say goodbye to Nana. Meanwhile, Nana is choking in her own vomit and being intubated and fed through a tube with round the clock care. Good times with the morphine drip rocking 24/7.TurdBomber said:HHusky said:
WA State recovers umpteen millions per year in end-of-life Medicaid costs incurred by elderly dying patients by putting a Medicaid Lien on the deceased's primary residence. Obamacare boosted the State's rights and power to do so. So if you want your kids to get the house, you better start giving it away tax-free each year in your 50s and shelter the fuck out of your wealth.PurpleThrobber said:
To some degree, the US healthcare system needs to address this end of life stuff irregardless*. Horrific amount of resources are spent in the last days of life. We don't do death well in this country at all.UWhuskytskeet said:You guys are delusional if you don't think those same choices aren't about to be decided here.
I spent some time yesterday chatting with my neighbor who is an ER doc (at an appropriate distance). His hospital isn't extremely stressed at this point but he has seen a rise in the 'sniffles' kind of patients. Fortunately, he also said the off-site testing facilities in the region have also probably sheltered them a bit otherwise he'd have expected a full-on blitz on the ER with every Tom, Dick and Harry with a cold. In this area, 93% of the people tested are coming back negative - which just means the symptoms are pretty similar to cold/flu season.
That led to our discussion of end of life philosophy in US medicine. He was pretty clinical and said once a person is into their mid-80's, if they are in the hospital, they are pretty well gonna die. He says the staff can predict with relative certainty on who is going to die the minute they walk in. From a personal standpoint, he is conflicted as far as providing treatment to prolong life at the family's wishes and what is actually best for the patient in terms of suffering.
Maybe the whole COVID thing will cause a thorough examination of our medical system, prioritization of needs and some other reforms/re-thinking that needs to take place. Maybe, just maybe, the sheeple will also wake the fuck up to the scam being perpetrated on them by their 'leaders' and vote them the fuck out.
Then the state funds all this shit and puts a lien on Junior's probable only inheritance asset from which he was hoping to sell and pay off boning daughters crushing student debt from her 6 years dicking ballers on the Palouse.
It's fucked up. -
A “prophecy” of something that’s always existed. Awesome!DJDuck said:Italy fulfilling Gov. Sarah Palin's death panel prophecy
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/03/italy_fulfilling_gov_sarah_palins_death_panel_prophecy.html -
Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
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People deciding who gets care and how much is not new anywhere on earth. And this is always what happens when there are not enough resources for everyone.DJDuck said:Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
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So why did Obama cock suckers like yourself freak out over Palin talking about death panels?HHusky said:
People deciding who gets care and how much is not new anywhere on earth. And this is always what happens when there are not enough resources for everyone.DJDuck said:Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
Because you're dishonest to your rotting core -
I said then what I say now. I was practically begging to be appointed to Gasbag’s death panel.RaceBannon said:
So why did Obama cock suckers like yourself freak out over Palin talking about death panels?HHusky said:
People deciding who gets care and how much is not new anywhere on earth. And this is always what happens when there are not enough resources for everyone.DJDuck said:Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
Because you're dishonest to your rotting core -
And yet you never said a word against any of your leftist pals who claimed the entire "death panels" claim was a lie.HHusky said:
I said then what I say now. I was practically begging to be appointed to Gasbag’s death panel.RaceBannon said:
So why did Obama cock suckers like yourself freak out over Palin talking about death panels?HHusky said:
People deciding who gets care and how much is not new anywhere on earth. And this is always what happens when there are not enough resources for everyone.DJDuck said:Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
Because you're dishonest to your rotting core
Shocking!!! -
I expressed my opinion at the time, and more than once. I guess you wanted me to shriek it at someone, as you would have.SFGbob said:
And yet you never said a word against any of your leftist pals who claimed the entire "death panels" claim was a lie.HHusky said:
I said then what I say now. I was practically begging to be appointed to Gasbag’s death panel.RaceBannon said:
So why did Obama cock suckers like yourself freak out over Palin talking about death panels?HHusky said:
People deciding who gets care and how much is not new anywhere on earth. And this is always what happens when there are not enough resources for everyone.DJDuck said:Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
Because you're dishonest to your rotting core
Shocking!!! -
Liar. You never once called out the people on your team that were attacking Palin and calling her a liar.HHusky said:
I expressed my opinion at the time, and more than once. I guess you wanted me to shriek it at someone, as you would have.SFGbob said:
And yet you never said a word against any of your leftist pals who claimed the entire "death panels" claim was a lie.HHusky said:
I said then what I say now. I was practically begging to be appointed to Gasbag’s death panel.RaceBannon said:
So why did Obama cock suckers like yourself freak out over Palin talking about death panels?HHusky said:
People deciding who gets care and how much is not new anywhere on earth. And this is always what happens when there are not enough resources for everyone.DJDuck said:Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
Because you're dishonest to your rotting core
Shocking!!!
Do you have no fucking shame you lying piece of shit? -
When I expressed my own opinion, you couldn’t understand that it was different than the opinions of people you argued with apparently. That’s a you problem.SFGbob said:
Liar. You never once called out the people on your team that were attacking Palin and calling her a liar.HHusky said:
I expressed my opinion at the time, and more than once. I guess you wanted me to shriek it at someone, as you would have.SFGbob said:
And yet you never said a word against any of your leftist pals who claimed the entire "death panels" claim was a lie.HHusky said:
I said then what I say now. I was practically begging to be appointed to Gasbag’s death panel.RaceBannon said:
So why did Obama cock suckers like yourself freak out over Palin talking about death panels?HHusky said:
People deciding who gets care and how much is not new anywhere on earth. And this is always what happens when there are not enough resources for everyone.DJDuck said:Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
Because you're dishonest to your rotting core
Shocking!!!
Do you have no fucking shame you lying piece of shit? -
Do you see what a mouthy little Kunt you're being right now O'Keefed? You never once did this with any of the dozens of leftist Kunts who claimed Palin was lying. Go fuck yourself.HHusky said:
When I expressed my own opinion, you couldn’t understand that it was different than the opinions of people you argued with apparently. That’s a you problem.SFGbob said:
Liar. You never once called out the people on your team that were attacking Palin and calling her a liar.HHusky said:
I expressed my opinion at the time, and more than once. I guess you wanted me to shriek it at someone, as you would have.SFGbob said:
And yet you never said a word against any of your leftist pals who claimed the entire "death panels" claim was a lie.HHusky said:
I said then what I say now. I was practically begging to be appointed to Gasbag’s death panel.RaceBannon said:
So why did Obama cock suckers like yourself freak out over Palin talking about death panels?HHusky said:
People deciding who gets care and how much is not new anywhere on earth. And this is always what happens when there are not enough resources for everyone.DJDuck said:Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
Because you're dishonest to your rotting core
Shocking!!!
Do you have no fucking shame you lying piece of shit? -
I’m not trying to make you cry. At least not a lot.SFGbob said:
Do you see what a mouthy little Kunt you're being right now O'Keefed? You never once did this with any of the dozens of leftist Kunts who claimed Palin was lying. Go fuck yourself.HHusky said:
When I expressed my own opinion, you couldn’t understand that it was different than the opinions of people you argued with apparently. That’s a you problem.SFGbob said:
Liar. You never once called out the people on your team that were attacking Palin and calling her a liar.HHusky said:
I expressed my opinion at the time, and more than once. I guess you wanted me to shriek it at someone, as you would have.SFGbob said:
And yet you never said a word against any of your leftist pals who claimed the entire "death panels" claim was a lie.HHusky said:
I said then what I say now. I was practically begging to be appointed to Gasbag’s death panel.RaceBannon said:
So why did Obama cock suckers like yourself freak out over Palin talking about death panels?HHusky said:
People deciding who gets care and how much is not new anywhere on earth. And this is always what happens when there are not enough resources for everyone.DJDuck said:Tell us specifically “what has always existed” certainly Obamacare has not always existed. Please explain your comment.
Because you're dishonest to your rotting core
Shocking!!!
Do you have no fucking shame you lying piece of shit? -
Right? Usually they’re from Bellevue though and the lost inheritance angle wouldn’t be in play.YellowSnow said:
Always about CUOG co-eds with Daddy issues with the Throbber. Always.PurpleThrobber said:
It's a really fucked system. So Junior wants to keep Mama alive for another two weeks while Coed Daughter with Daddy Issues in Pullman can finish finals, bone a few football players and have shots at the Coug before coming home to say goodbye to Nana. Meanwhile, Nana is choking in her own vomit and being intubated and fed through a tube with round the clock care. Good times with the morphine drip rocking 24/7.TurdBomber said:HHusky said:
WA State recovers umpteen millions per year in end-of-life Medicaid costs incurred by elderly dying patients by putting a Medicaid Lien on the deceased's primary residence. Obamacare boosted the State's rights and power to do so. So if you want your kids to get the house, you better start giving it away tax-free each year in your 50s and shelter the fuck out of your wealth.PurpleThrobber said:
To some degree, the US healthcare system needs to address this end of life stuff irregardless*. Horrific amount of resources are spent in the last days of life. We don't do death well in this country at all.UWhuskytskeet said:You guys are delusional if you don't think those same choices aren't about to be decided here.
I spent some time yesterday chatting with my neighbor who is an ER doc (at an appropriate distance). His hospital isn't extremely stressed at this point but he has seen a rise in the 'sniffles' kind of patients. Fortunately, he also said the off-site testing facilities in the region have also probably sheltered them a bit otherwise he'd have expected a full-on blitz on the ER with every Tom, Dick and Harry with a cold. In this area, 93% of the people tested are coming back negative - which just means the symptoms are pretty similar to cold/flu season.
That led to our discussion of end of life philosophy in US medicine. He was pretty clinical and said once a person is into their mid-80's, if they are in the hospital, they are pretty well gonna die. He says the staff can predict with relative certainty on who is going to die the minute they walk in. From a personal standpoint, he is conflicted as far as providing treatment to prolong life at the family's wishes and what is actually best for the patient in terms of suffering.
Maybe the whole COVID thing will cause a thorough examination of our medical system, prioritization of needs and some other reforms/re-thinking that needs to take place. Maybe, just maybe, the sheeple will also wake the fuck up to the scam being perpetrated on them by their 'leaders' and vote them the fuck out.
Then the state funds all this shit and puts a lien on Junior's probable only inheritance asset from which he was hoping to sell and pay off boning daughters crushing student debt from her 6 years dicking ballers on the Palouse.
It's fucked up. -
A man's gotta know his limitations.YellowSnow said:
Always about CUOG co-eds with Daddy issues with the Throbber. Always.PurpleThrobber said:
It's a really fucked system. So Junior wants to keep Mama alive for another two weeks while Coed Daughter with Daddy Issues in Pullman can finish finals, bone a few football players and have shots at the Coug before coming home to say goodbye to Nana. Meanwhile, Nana is choking in her own vomit and being intubated and fed through a tube with round the clock care. Good times with the morphine drip rocking 24/7.TurdBomber said:HHusky said:
WA State recovers umpteen millions per year in end-of-life Medicaid costs incurred by elderly dying patients by putting a Medicaid Lien on the deceased's primary residence. Obamacare boosted the State's rights and power to do so. So if you want your kids to get the house, you better start giving it away tax-free each year in your 50s and shelter the fuck out of your wealth.PurpleThrobber said:
To some degree, the US healthcare system needs to address this end of life stuff irregardless*. Horrific amount of resources are spent in the last days of life. We don't do death well in this country at all.UWhuskytskeet said:You guys are delusional if you don't think those same choices aren't about to be decided here.
I spent some time yesterday chatting with my neighbor who is an ER doc (at an appropriate distance). His hospital isn't extremely stressed at this point but he has seen a rise in the 'sniffles' kind of patients. Fortunately, he also said the off-site testing facilities in the region have also probably sheltered them a bit otherwise he'd have expected a full-on blitz on the ER with every Tom, Dick and Harry with a cold. In this area, 93% of the people tested are coming back negative - which just means the symptoms are pretty similar to cold/flu season.
That led to our discussion of end of life philosophy in US medicine. He was pretty clinical and said once a person is into their mid-80's, if they are in the hospital, they are pretty well gonna die. He says the staff can predict with relative certainty on who is going to die the minute they walk in. From a personal standpoint, he is conflicted as far as providing treatment to prolong life at the family's wishes and what is actually best for the patient in terms of suffering.
Maybe the whole COVID thing will cause a thorough examination of our medical system, prioritization of needs and some other reforms/re-thinking that needs to take place. Maybe, just maybe, the sheeple will also wake the fuck up to the scam being perpetrated on them by their 'leaders' and vote them the fuck out.
Then the state funds all this shit and puts a lien on Junior's probable only inheritance asset from which he was hoping to sell and pay off boning daughters crushing student debt from her 6 years dicking ballers on the Palouse.
It's fucked up.
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Lawyers are the most worthless group of humans ever assembled, aside from HR fags. @creepycoug excepted of course
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You should have taken the plea deal. Don’t blame your lawyer.Swaye said:Lawyers are the most worthless group of humans ever assembled, aside from HR fags. @creepycoug excepted of course
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Figures the flunky coward lawyer would say that.HHusky said:
You should have taken the plea deal. Don’t blame your lawyer.Swaye said:Lawyers are the most worthless group of humans ever assembled, aside from HR fags. @creepycoug excepted of course
