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If Medicare for all is such a slick no brainer
Comments
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Sweden took in hundreds of thousands of Syrian and Iraqi refugees. What are we paying hundreds of billions of dollars ro defend against? A loose network of tribes in Afghanistan? Great point.RaceBannon said:
Right after they open their borders and pay for their own defenseHardlyClothed said:
Sure let’s pick socialism in the Nordics.SFGbob said:
Yes, yes how dare anyone point out real world examples of the system you're advocating for sucking ass. We should only focus on the socialist utopia that's in your mind.HardlyClothed said:
The VA! Venezuela! Bill Ayers!SFGbob said:
There's a not for profit healthcare system operating right now. It's called the VA and we can all see how wonderfully they provide healthcare.HardlyClothed said:
It’s the profit motive of health insurance and pharmaceuticals that are bleeding us dry. Capitalism is working folks no need to change!UW_Doog_Bot said:
Is that because private individuals are wasting money or because the government is wasting money?Rubberfist said:
I’m sure our healthcare outcomes are FAR superior to the countries behind us in this chart.
I love that all of the socialists like to pretend the US has a purely capitalist system when the argument is about how inefficient the current system is.
Intervene in the market, distort the market, blame the market, call for more intervention, rinse and repeat.
That's the problem with the left - free healthcare and open borders is no way fucking possible at all ever
Pick one -
I'm pretty sure we are still defending Europe from RUSSIAHardlyClothed said:
Sweden took in hundreds of thousands of Syrian and Iraqi refugees. What are we paying hundreds of billions of dollars ro defend against? A loose network of tribes in Afghanistan? Great point.RaceBannon said:
Right after they open their borders and pay for their own defenseHardlyClothed said:
Sure let’s pick socialism in the Nordics.SFGbob said:
Yes, yes how dare anyone point out real world examples of the system you're advocating for sucking ass. We should only focus on the socialist utopia that's in your mind.HardlyClothed said:
The VA! Venezuela! Bill Ayers!SFGbob said:
There's a not for profit healthcare system operating right now. It's called the VA and we can all see how wonderfully they provide healthcare.HardlyClothed said:
It’s the profit motive of health insurance and pharmaceuticals that are bleeding us dry. Capitalism is working folks no need to change!UW_Doog_Bot said:
Is that because private individuals are wasting money or because the government is wasting money?Rubberfist said:
I’m sure our healthcare outcomes are FAR superior to the countries behind us in this chart.
I love that all of the socialists like to pretend the US has a purely capitalist system when the argument is about how inefficient the current system is.
Intervene in the market, distort the market, blame the market, call for more intervention, rinse and repeat.
That's the problem with the left - free healthcare and open borders is no way fucking possible at all ever
Pick one
Its kind of a big deal from what I am hearing
We also protect the sea lanes upon which the Viking oil sails to market
Trump is actually trying to get the fuck out of Afghanistan and Syria
Now we have to stay I guess -
Ha, economic freedom measures. Just arbitrary bullshit from that the Cato institute pumps out.UW_Doog_Bot said:
A good many of the Nordic's rank higher than we do on the Economic freedom measures as well.RaceBannon said:
Right after they open their borders and pay for their own defenseHardlyClothed said:
Sure let’s pick socialism in the Nordics.SFGbob said:
Yes, yes how dare anyone point out real world examples of the system you're advocating for sucking ass. We should only focus on the socialist utopia that's in your mind.HardlyClothed said:
The VA! Venezuela! Bill Ayers!SFGbob said:
There's a not for profit healthcare system operating right now. It's called the VA and we can all see how wonderfully they provide healthcare.HardlyClothed said:
It’s the profit motive of health insurance and pharmaceuticals that are bleeding us dry. Capitalism is working folks no need to change!UW_Doog_Bot said:
Is that because private individuals are wasting money or because the government is wasting money?Rubberfist said:
I’m sure our healthcare outcomes are FAR superior to the countries behind us in this chart.
I love that all of the socialists like to pretend the US has a purely capitalist system when the argument is about how inefficient the current system is.
Intervene in the market, distort the market, blame the market, call for more intervention, rinse and repeat.
That's the problem with the left - free healthcare and open borders is no way fucking possible at all ever
Pick one
Let's discuss Denmark's policy of having no minimum wage.
I might be willing to trade massive government intervention in one industry for a massive reversal of government intervention in the entire labor market.
Let’s discuss the percentage of laborers with collective bargaining rights being well over 50% in every Nordic country.
Wait but your brilliant free market devotees in the UW econ department said that labor unions are iniffecient and crush economic growth. Then why are they doing better than us? -
They aren't
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Rec'd for civil discourse.2001400ex said:
Lol I enjoy arguing with someone who knows something, which you do.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Which misses the mark if you are claiming they aren't providing services and simply raking in profits at the expense of care to customers.2001400ex said:
Except insurance companies were given 30 million new customers. Did you hear of one that complained about their supposed controlled profits?UW_Doog_Bot said:
Dipshit, their profits were controlled and prices were fixed based on that under obamacare.HardlyClothed said:
The shitty part of Obamacare was the exchanges that allowed the insurance and pharma vultures continued windfalls.RaceBannon said:
Thanks Obama!HardlyClothed said:
Awesome idea! I’m going to put the $50 I have available after I pay my $800 monthly premium into Pfizer stock next chance I get.UW_Doog_Bot said:
What percentage of profit do you think health insurance and pharmaceuticals are making? Most of the majors are public companies so we should all probably invest in them if they are making a killing.HardlyClothed said:
It’s the profit motive of health insurance and pharmaceuticals that are bleeding us dry. Capitalism is working folks no need to change!UW_Doog_Bot said:
Is that because private individuals are wasting money or because the government is wasting money?Rubberfist said:
I’m sure our healthcare outcomes are FAR superior to the countries behind us in this chart.
I love that all of the socialists like to pretend the US has a purely capitalist system when the argument is about how inefficient the current system is.
Intervene in the market, distort the market, blame the market, call for more intervention, rinse and repeat.
What a twat.
The last "fix" fucked affordable insurance
Can't wait for the next one!
The good part was medicaid expansion.
And with more people covered, how much more do you think big pharma made?
I thought you were an economics smart guy too.
Hondo, I really don't mind you and can see what you are getting at sometimes but you really do latch onto the oddest of angles of arguments. Let's break this down.
1) It's profits that are driving up costs! Consumers aren't receiving care!
2) Profits are fixed, it's not profits driving up costs.
3) Consumers are receiving care! That's driving up costs! Gotcha! (Lol wat?)
However, I didn't come with the angle that they aren't providing services and raking in profits. The angle I approach it with.... They make about 5% profit, and it's fixed as you say, and there's huge waste. Government has even more waste, but is it more than the 5% profit? I don't know the answer to that. But I know with negotiated Medicare rates, overall costs should be lower than the current system.
Under single payer, the overall costs will be driven down for the reason mentioned before. And I think consumer costs will be lower as the increased tax will be less than what most consumers pay in insurance (yes there will be some losers) and out of pocket will be much lower.
I've also seen people screwed over because insurance companies won't pay for shit the doctor recommends and the patient needs. Sometimes from the insurance company overriding the experts opinion. And sometimes the specialist is out of network and bullshit like that. In all honesty, this is the main reason I want to go single payer as I'll probably end up paying more if we went to single payer.
I did already *somewhat address this though.
Lower costs imposed by the government don't increase availability though. They simply mean fewer people have access to a lower priced good. Suppliers will only supply x amount at price y. They will supply less of x at lower price y. You can't force them to supply the same amount at a lower price even at the point of a gun. It never works.
Now, there are some costs savings from administration since there's only one person paying the bill but the government is notorious for paying bills late, increasing paperwork, etc. There is very little incentive to provide care and reduce waste. If anything, all of the incentives are to reduce care and increase waste. The reality of doctors that work on medicaid or medicare is that they have a whole staff section dedicated to that billing(from my experience) and tend to tailor their practice to dealing with those clients. This also doesn't count any of the government side of "administration" as cost, which it is.
There's waste in both systems, the difference is that in a private system you can choose to use a supplier with the least amount of waste and that puts downward pressure on suppliers to cut costs.
I can relate and empathize with your anecdotes, going through similar shit right now in my personal life with family members. In an actually free market though, you'd be able to simply leave your provider and get a new one. Providers who didn't cover their patients would quickly lose new customers the same way that driver's insurance works. We don't have remotely a free market though. We have a labyrinth created by government and the weird US artifact of getting your insurance through your employer instead of buying it yourself. -
A third example of Nordic commitment to free markets can be found in Sweden which has complete school choice. The government provides families with vouchers for each child. These vouchers can be used to attend regular public schools, government-run charter schools, or private, for-profit schools. Clearly, the use of government funds to pay for private, for-profit schools is the opposite of socialism.
I could go for that. You in HC? Nordic countries have a generous welfare state but they still practice free market economics. -
You do realize that UW is a really liberal school right? The difference being that even liberal economists are at least economically literate.HardlyClothed said:
Ha, economic freedom measures. Just arbitrary bullshit from that the Cato institute pumps out.UW_Doog_Bot said:
A good many of the Nordic's rank higher than we do on the Economic freedom measures as well.RaceBannon said:
Right after they open their borders and pay for their own defenseHardlyClothed said:
Sure let’s pick socialism in the Nordics.SFGbob said:
Yes, yes how dare anyone point out real world examples of the system you're advocating for sucking ass. We should only focus on the socialist utopia that's in your mind.HardlyClothed said:
The VA! Venezuela! Bill Ayers!SFGbob said:
There's a not for profit healthcare system operating right now. It's called the VA and we can all see how wonderfully they provide healthcare.HardlyClothed said:
It’s the profit motive of health insurance and pharmaceuticals that are bleeding us dry. Capitalism is working folks no need to change!UW_Doog_Bot said:
Is that because private individuals are wasting money or because the government is wasting money?Rubberfist said:
I’m sure our healthcare outcomes are FAR superior to the countries behind us in this chart.
I love that all of the socialists like to pretend the US has a purely capitalist system when the argument is about how inefficient the current system is.
Intervene in the market, distort the market, blame the market, call for more intervention, rinse and repeat.
That's the problem with the left - free healthcare and open borders is no way fucking possible at all ever
Pick one
Let's discuss Denmark's policy of having no minimum wage.
I might be willing to trade massive government intervention in one industry for a massive reversal of government intervention in the entire labor market.
Let’s discuss the percentage of laborers with collective bargaining rights being well over 50% in every Nordic country.
Wait but your brilliant free market devotees in the UW econ department said that labor unions are iniffecient and crush economic growth. Then why are they doing better than us?
Actually, a free market doesn't impose any restrictions on labor unions(private) and there's lots of evidence that companies that take care of their employees(freely) perform better.
A truly free market even allows for voluntary socialism.
So if those are more efficient then they would naturally take over the free market. They would just be voluntary instead of forced at the point of a government gun.
I know it's hard for you to understand these things.
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Wow I wonder why Wal Mart isn’t voluntary paying their thousands of workers better than minimum wage then. Don’t the Waltons realize they would be even more wealthy if they just gave up more of their share to pay their workers better? It’s almost as if in the real world the owners of capital don’t volunteer to pay their workers better and accumulate wealth unless checked by direct action by labor or the government.UW_Doog_Bot said:
You do realize that UW is a really liberal school right? The difference being that even liberal economists are at least economically literate.HardlyClothed said:
Ha, economic freedom measures. Just arbitrary bullshit from that the Cato institute pumps out.UW_Doog_Bot said:
A good many of the Nordic's rank higher than we do on the Economic freedom measures as well.RaceBannon said:
Right after they open their borders and pay for their own defenseHardlyClothed said:
Sure let’s pick socialism in the Nordics.SFGbob said:
Yes, yes how dare anyone point out real world examples of the system you're advocating for sucking ass. We should only focus on the socialist utopia that's in your mind.HardlyClothed said:
The VA! Venezuela! Bill Ayers!SFGbob said:
There's a not for profit healthcare system operating right now. It's called the VA and we can all see how wonderfully they provide healthcare.HardlyClothed said:
It’s the profit motive of health insurance and pharmaceuticals that are bleeding us dry. Capitalism is working folks no need to change!UW_Doog_Bot said:
Is that because private individuals are wasting money or because the government is wasting money?Rubberfist said:
I’m sure our healthcare outcomes are FAR superior to the countries behind us in this chart.
I love that all of the socialists like to pretend the US has a purely capitalist system when the argument is about how inefficient the current system is.
Intervene in the market, distort the market, blame the market, call for more intervention, rinse and repeat.
That's the problem with the left - free healthcare and open borders is no way fucking possible at all ever
Pick one
Let's discuss Denmark's policy of having no minimum wage.
I might be willing to trade massive government intervention in one industry for a massive reversal of government intervention in the entire labor market.
Let’s discuss the percentage of laborers with collective bargaining rights being well over 50% in every Nordic country.
Wait but your brilliant free market devotees in the UW econ department said that labor unions are iniffecient and crush economic growth. Then why are they doing better than us?
Actually, a free market doesn't impose any restrictions on labor unions(private) and there's lots of evidence that companies that take care of their employees(freely) perform better.
A truly free market even allows for voluntary socialism.
So if those are more efficient then they would naturally take over the free market. They would just be voluntary instead of forced at the point of a government gun.
I know it's hard for you to understand these things. -
You would know more about real world economics by studying the history of late 19th/early 20th century labor movements in the United States than whatever you think passes for “economic literacy”
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Wow I wonder why Wal Mart isn’t voluntary paying their thousands of workers better than minimum wage then.
They already do. You just swallow like a bitch every AOC talking point she feeds you don't you dumbfuck. Federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. Walmart's entry level wage in all states in $11.00 an hour and of course if they are operating in a state that has a higher MW they pay that wage.
Wow I wonder why you swallow like a bitch?
