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Michigan

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    Pitchfork51Pitchfork51 Member Posts: 26,666
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    I think the differentiator is good assistnsts.

    Keeping a stable of good assistants costs a ton.

    I imagine the reason really good coaches are really good is because they always have great assistants that can recruit and coach.

    Think back at all the coaches in the conference. All the ones that got fired had super shitty DC's or ocs or guys that couldn't recruit

    You guys least favorite guy was babushka who's actually running a pretty damn good offense. He was probably like the 5th best oc in the pac. When that's the weakest link it's a good thing
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,752
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    I think the differentiator is good assistnsts.

    Keeping a stable of good assistants costs a ton.

    I imagine the reason really good coaches are really good is because they always have great assistants that can recruit and coach.

    Think back at all the coaches in the conference. All the ones that got fired had super shitty DC's or ocs or guys that couldn't recruit

    You guys least favorite guy was babushka who's actually running a pretty damn good offense. He was probably like the 5th best oc in the pac. When that's the weakest link it's a good thing

    This is true. When I think of the great Florida State teams, you had Richt at OC and you had Amato at DC, both for like ever.

    The Miami Johnson teams had guys like Wannstache, Orgeron, Butch Davis and a bunch of other salty old hands that knew their shit.

    Still, the HC is the straw that stirs the drink.
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    YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 34,257
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    whlinder said:

    The point is: Coaches are the differentiator. You need money for football and a willingness to spend it on coaches. Michigan has that.

    4 coaches, 5 titles, inches from 7, yards from 8.

    location and tradition seem to me the be the most relevant variables.

    Texas has as much or money as anyone and isn't in Miami's zip code over the last 30-year period.

    The best Trojan coach in my lifetime not named John McKay was purchased at Value Village.

    Sure, you need a threshold amount of money to operate a football program.

    You can't get to Mt. Olympus by just buying your way there, or Oregon would have purchased it by now.

    Here's a list of the top 27 schools by AD revenue.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/schools-most-revenue-college-sports-texas-longhorns-2017-11#1-university-of-texas-1821-million-27


    We've discussed the failure rate of super coaches taking their show on the road from School A to School B. It is abysmal. We've also discussed the success rate of finding the right coach who is on his way up.

    Sure, if you can sell the wife and kids to get Urban Meyer, then you do it. Most programs can pull that off for football, even w/o a huge AD budget. Miami can afford to bust for a big-name coach. They just haven't done it until they signed Richt. But most of the time, it just doesn't pay for itself. As we've discussed, Meyer is a rare bird.

    The coaches who left Miami who could have had long-term dynasties would not have been retained by Ohio State or Alabama in the same circumstances. They had 'total control' packages to leave for the NFL, one of them for the marque franchise, and each one of them left Miami reluctantly knowing what they were leaving on the table. If even one of those guys stays, you have a lot less up and down than the Hurricanes have experienced. $$ wasn't going to save it though.

    Not saying that $$ doesn't matter; don't twist. It just doesn't seem to be the driver.
    National championships post dumpy, closer to campus, tuff renta-stadium - Zero!! No college team has ever won a NT playing at an off campus facility, other than those which are richly steeped in college football lore- i.e., LA Coliseum, the Orange Bowl and Legion Field in Birmingham, AL.


    You're better than this.
    Of course, I am pretend counselor. But until Miami wins a Natty playing a Joe Robbie / Pro Players / Sun Life / Hard Rock stadium, I am going to keep breaking your balls. The stadium is a YUGE part of the college experience and one of the many things that differentiate that college game from the shitty NFL.
    One of the things that differentiates Miami from the rest of the landscape is that most of the shit you guys eat so willingly is not a part of their deal. Half-filled stadiums spell doom for programs like Washington. Miami has never had a rabid fan base, and they won't come out on Saturday to watch an 8-6 Miami team play Virginia when they could be at the beach.

    Miami is a big stakes, big game, big name, night time, show time town. They will fill up three Big Houses for a meaningful tilt with ND or Florida State. That's who they are and who they always have been. The Orange Bowl was 82k+ in capacity and they never had a problem filling it for the big games, particularly the night games. But when they aren't winning big, they won't fill a high school stadium.

    None of this has ever mattered. The only thing that does matter is that there is an endless supply of Sunday talent that has grown up wanting to play for the U because of what it has always stood for to their demographic. Watch the first 30 for 30. That's it right there.

    University of Miami is not a traditional school in almost all respects. It's a weird place. It's a big park with water fountains and modern buildings in Coral Gables, which is not a college town feel.

    Miami is different and is governed by different rules.
    You know I like you (not homo) and your Cane shtick, Creep. But being a waspy, history nerd and former practitioner of the most traditionalist, blue blood of all college sports means I have to give Miami shit. I do consider them the 2nd greatest program of the past 40 years and close to being on Mt Rushmore with another NT.
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    RaceBannonRaceBannon Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 102,286
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    None of this has ever mattered. The only thing that does matter is that there is an endless supply of Sunday talent that has grown up wanting to play for the U because of what it has always stood for to their demographic. Watch the first 30 for 30. That's it right there.


    Not

    Any

    More

    Born in 2001 you watched Miami go on probation again and never be heard from again

    They don't have the allure of LA that keeps kids dreaming of being Trojans regardless of record

    And the South belongs to Bama and the SEC and the other ACC teams now

    Ohio State has always cherry picked Florida as well and now most B1G schools do
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    YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 34,257
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    None of this has ever mattered. The only thing that does matter is that there is an endless supply of Sunday talent that has grown up wanting to play for the U because of what it has always stood for to their demographic. Watch the first 30 for 30. That's it right there.


    Not

    Any

    More

    Born in 2001 you watched Miami go on probation again and never be heard from again

    They don't have the allure of LA that keeps kids dreaming of being Trojans regardless of record

    And the South belongs to Bama and the SEC and the other ACC teams now

    Ohio State has always cherry picked Florida as well and now most B1G schools do




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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,752
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    edited October 2018

    None of this has ever mattered. The only thing that does matter is that there is an endless supply of Sunday talent that has grown up wanting to play for the U because of what it has always stood for to their demographic. Watch the first 30 for 30. That's it right there.


    Not

    Any

    More

    Born in 2001 you watched Miami go on probation again and never be heard from again

    They don't have the allure of LA that keeps kids dreaming of being Trojans regardless of record

    And the South belongs to Bama and the SEC and the other ACC teams now

    Ohio State has always cherry picked Florida as well and now most B1G schools do

    I give you a lot of deference old man, but this is not your best work. This is why Sonny didn't pick you; you're just not a war-time Consigliere Race.

    There are Hurricanes every single person who watches football knows about who those kids wanna be. You think they don't know who Frank Gore, Andre Johnson, Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, Vince Wilfork, Edgerrin James & Jonathan Vilma are? They all (sans Taylor of course) come home and support like no other program has from their NFL alumni base. Those kids know all about the U. They watch 30 for 30. They know the history. They know it as NFL U.

    Other schools have always recruited Florida. This is not new. Before Bama was Bama again it was LSU stealing kids from So Fla. And, still, Miami produced as many or more NFL studs. Look at the current roster. You have a very talented Washington team right now, and I would bet my house that there will be more pro bowls represented from this Hurricane roster than what you'll see from this Washington team. I'd put the same stake in the ground vis a vis USC.

    Ohio State, ND, SEC team du jour have always cherry picked So Fla, and always will. Fortunately for Miami, it never has mattered, at all, and it still doesn't.

    Miami the city has more allure today than it ever has, and competes with LA easily for 'cool city' status. South Beach bitch. Miami is full of night life and flash.

    Miami has had players all through their droughts. Every single thing you said about SC applies to Miami and then some.

    Maybe your worst post in over a year.

    Take a nap old man. You're slipping.
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,752
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    whlinder said:

    The point is: Coaches are the differentiator. You need money for football and a willingness to spend it on coaches. Michigan has that.

    4 coaches, 5 titles, inches from 7, yards from 8.

    location and tradition seem to me the be the most relevant variables.

    Texas has as much or money as anyone and isn't in Miami's zip code over the last 30-year period.

    The best Trojan coach in my lifetime not named John McKay was purchased at Value Village.

    Sure, you need a threshold amount of money to operate a football program.

    You can't get to Mt. Olympus by just buying your way there, or Oregon would have purchased it by now.

    Here's a list of the top 27 schools by AD revenue.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/schools-most-revenue-college-sports-texas-longhorns-2017-11#1-university-of-texas-1821-million-27


    We've discussed the failure rate of super coaches taking their show on the road from School A to School B. It is abysmal. We've also discussed the success rate of finding the right coach who is on his way up.

    Sure, if you can sell the wife and kids to get Urban Meyer, then you do it. Most programs can pull that off for football, even w/o a huge AD budget. Miami can afford to bust for a big-name coach. They just haven't done it until they signed Richt. But most of the time, it just doesn't pay for itself. As we've discussed, Meyer is a rare bird.

    The coaches who left Miami who could have had long-term dynasties would not have been retained by Ohio State or Alabama in the same circumstances. They had 'total control' packages to leave for the NFL, one of them for the marque franchise, and each one of them left Miami reluctantly knowing what they were leaving on the table. If even one of those guys stays, you have a lot less up and down than the Hurricanes have experienced. $$ wasn't going to save it though.

    Not saying that $$ doesn't matter; don't twist. It just doesn't seem to be the driver.
    National championships post dumpy, closer to campus, tuff renta-stadium - Zero!! No college team has ever won a NT playing at an off campus facility, other than those which are richly steeped in college football lore- i.e., LA Coliseum, the Orange Bowl and Legion Field in Birmingham, AL.


    You're better than this.
    Of course, I am pretend counselor. But until Miami wins a Natty playing a Joe Robbie / Pro Players / Sun Life / Hard Rock stadium, I am going to keep breaking your balls. The stadium is a YUGE part of the college experience and one of the many things that differentiate that college game from the shitty NFL.
    One of the things that differentiates Miami from the rest of the landscape is that most of the shit you guys eat so willingly is not a part of their deal. Half-filled stadiums spell doom for programs like Washington. Miami has never had a rabid fan base, and they won't come out on Saturday to watch an 8-6 Miami team play Virginia when they could be at the beach.

    Miami is a big stakes, big game, big name, night time, show time town. They will fill up three Big Houses for a meaningful tilt with ND or Florida State. That's who they are and who they always have been. The Orange Bowl was 82k+ in capacity and they never had a problem filling it for the big games, particularly the night games. But when they aren't winning big, they won't fill a high school stadium.

    None of this has ever mattered. The only thing that does matter is that there is an endless supply of Sunday talent that has grown up wanting to play for the U because of what it has always stood for to their demographic. Watch the first 30 for 30. That's it right there.

    University of Miami is not a traditional school in almost all respects. It's a weird place. It's a big park with water fountains and modern buildings in Coral Gables, which is not a college town feel.

    Miami is different and is governed by different rules.
    You know I like you (not homo) and your Cane shtick, Creep. But being a waspy, history nerd and former practitioner of the most traditionalist, blue blood of all college sports means I have to give Miami shit. I do consider them the 2nd greatest program of the past 40 years and close to being on Mt Rushmore with another NT.
    Get back to us when you have us ON Mt. Rushmore. We don't want no scrub bitch.
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    RaceBannonRaceBannon Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 102,286
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    None of this has ever mattered. The only thing that does matter is that there is an endless supply of Sunday talent that has grown up wanting to play for the U because of what it has always stood for to their demographic. Watch the first 30 for 30. That's it right there.


    Not

    Any

    More

    Born in 2001 you watched Miami go on probation again and never be heard from again

    They don't have the allure of LA that keeps kids dreaming of being Trojans regardless of record

    And the South belongs to Bama and the SEC and the other ACC teams now

    Ohio State has always cherry picked Florida as well and now most B1G schools do

    I give you a lot of deference old man, but this is not your best work. This is why Sonny didn't pick you; you're just not a war-time Consigliere Race.

    There are Hurricanes every single person who watches football knows about who those kids wanna be. You think they don't know who Frank Gore, Andre Johnson, Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, Vince Wilfork, Edgerrin James & Jonathan Vilma are? They all (sans Taylor of course) come home and support like no other program has from their NFL alumni base. Those kids know all about the U. They watch 30 for 30. They know the history. They know it as NFL U.

    Other schools have always recruited Florida. This is not new. Before Bama was Bama again it was LSU stealing kids from So Fla. And, still, Miami produced as many or more NFL studs. Look at the current roster. You have a very talented Washington team right now, and I would bet my house that there will be more pro bowls represented from this Hurricane roster than what you'll see from this Washington team. I'd put the same stake in the ground vis a vis USC.

    Ohio State, ND, SEC team du jour have always cherry picked So Fla, and always will. Fortunately for Miami, it never has mattered, at all, and it still doesn't.

    Miami the city has more allure today than it ever has, and competes with LA easily for 'cool city' status. South Beach bitch. Miami is full of night life and flash.

    Miami has had players all through their droughts. Every single thing you said about SC applies to Miami and then some.

    Maybe your worst post in over a year.

    Take a nap old man. You're slipping.
    The past is for Canes
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,752
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    None of this has ever mattered. The only thing that does matter is that there is an endless supply of Sunday talent that has grown up wanting to play for the U because of what it has always stood for to their demographic. Watch the first 30 for 30. That's it right there.


    Not

    Any

    More

    Born in 2001 you watched Miami go on probation again and never be heard from again

    They don't have the allure of LA that keeps kids dreaming of being Trojans regardless of record

    And the South belongs to Bama and the SEC and the other ACC teams now

    Ohio State has always cherry picked Florida as well and now most B1G schools do

    I give you a lot of deference old man, but this is not your best work. This is why Sonny didn't pick you; you're just not a war-time Consigliere Race.

    There are Hurricanes every single person who watches football knows about who those kids wanna be. You think they don't know who Frank Gore, Andre Johnson, Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, Vince Wilfork, Edgerrin James & Jonathan Vilma are? They all (sans Taylor of course) come home and support like no other program has from their NFL alumni base. Those kids know all about the U. They watch 30 for 30. They know the history. They know it as NFL U.

    Other schools have always recruited Florida. This is not new. Before Bama was Bama again it was LSU stealing kids from So Fla. And, still, Miami produced as many or more NFL studs. Look at the current roster. You have a very talented Washington team right now, and I would bet my house that there will be more pro bowls represented from this Hurricane roster than what you'll see from this Washington team. I'd put the same stake in the ground vis a vis USC.

    Ohio State, ND, SEC team du jour have always cherry picked So Fla, and always will. Fortunately for Miami, it never has mattered, at all, and it still doesn't.

    Miami the city has more allure today than it ever has, and competes with LA easily for 'cool city' status. South Beach bitch. Miami is full of night life and flash.

    Miami has had players all through their droughts. Every single thing you said about SC applies to Miami and then some.

    Maybe your worst post in over a year.

    Take a nap old man. You're slipping.
    The past is for Canes
    Shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    oregonblitzkriegoregonblitzkrieg Member Posts: 15,288
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    Harbaugh will be USC's next coach
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,752
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    Harbaugh will be USC's next coach

    No way. He has failed at Michigan.
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    oregonblitzkriegoregonblitzkrieg Member Posts: 15,288
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    Harbaugh will be USC's next coach

    No way. He has failed at Michigan.
    Sark failed at Washington.
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    RaceBannonRaceBannon Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 102,286
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    Harbaugh will be USC's next coach

    No way. He has failed at Michigan.
    Sark failed at Washington.
    Big if true
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,752
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    Harbaugh will be USC's next coach

    No way. He has failed at Michigan.
    Sark failed at Washington.
    You make a good point. Is Pat Haden fs still there?
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    SECDAWGSECDAWG Member Posts: 5,004
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    Be surprised at how many Wolverine fans may be down this way..

    May be becaus Harbaw spent night on couches but the more misery they get, the better.

    Thank God for Gamecocks last bowel season
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    RoadDawg55RoadDawg55 Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 30,123
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    Womp. Christ.

    Ohio State, LSU, Bama, USC (historically), Miami, Florida State, most of the SEC don't have money. Texas, ND, Stanford, Michigan and Northwestern have $$. I'm not seeing the importance of that variable.

    Location. Many programs are in much better locations nearer to fertile recruiting grounds.

    Tradition. That's the point of my poast. Only lasts so long. As evidenced by Michigan's drought.

    That's a lot of ifs in your poast. My aunt and my uncle are different people. Nuff said on that.

    He didnt' whip anybody. He was gifted a title on a bad call.

    Really disappointed in your effert here. I've come to expect moar.

    What the fuck universe are you living in? OSU, Bama, and LSU are all in the top 10 of AD revenue. FSU is top 15, and I’m sure USC would be too if they released their financials. Meanwhile no one would ever try to make the case that Miami is anywhere close to a blue blood - their success was brief and was 98% due to location. Money is and will forever be the #1 deciding factor in college football. To try to argue otherwise is mind-bogglingly stupid.
    I was talking about overall university resources.

    I'm also not sure what you mean by blue blood. If you want to compare entire histories, then no, other than producing some great players, Miami was not consistently good prior to the late 70s. Maybe it's selective application about when football was invented, or recency bias. But I think you're sweeping Miami aside with hyperbole when you say they aren't 'anywhere close to a blue blood." If you meant on a revenue basis, then sure, they are not a super rich program.

    If you meant on an accomplishment basis, then I think you're stretching unless you are putting a lot of weight on program accomplishment from - I don't know - a long time ago. They've won 5, come within an eyelash of three others, and won every major bowl outside of the Fiesta. They've produced a slew of All Americans and other major award winners, they've littered the NFL with impact players like no program in the country over the last 25+ years, they've fielded some of the best teams the game has seen, been part of some of the most legendary games and rivalries and streaks, and have stamped themselves as a fixture in the sport. And they've added traditions that are uniquely known for, and often copied.

    I can count on 1 finger the number of great Michigan teams I've seen the last 20 years. LSU was a middling program forever.

    And how is the fact that "98%" of Miami's success is due to location a problem exactly. I would score that as a big advantage. Their location isn't changing anytime soon, nor is the demographic of that location. What's the point of that as a criticism?

    Miami has been up and down since really arriving as a nationally-relevant program because of coaching. They had three very successful coaches leave for unique professional football opportunities, and each man eventually publicly admitted that they regretted leaving (including Jimmy Johnson). Each one of those coaches could have run Miami for a DJ-like tenure and kept them stable and winning for years. They didn't lose those guys because of money; they lost them because they were presented unique opportunities in their profession that they didn't think they could pass up. And still, with all those coaches, Miami still found a way to come back and win. 4 coaches winning 5 titles in 25 years. If that's what a poor program can do in Miami, then I'll take being poor, and you can focus on athletic department income statements and balance sheets.

    Put it this way. If as you say USC has a healthy AD revenue number as compared to Miami's, which I assume they do, do you think that has made a huge difference between the programs? We all know they got lucky af with Carroll, who was like 5th on the list when they got to him. So $$ didn't make that happen. Miami has better facilities now than they ever have.

    How specifically has Miami's relatively modest AD revenue kept them 'down' and the higher revenue of the blue bloods, like Texas, kept them 'up'? I don't see it.

    Sure, Bama has revenue, but they also have tradition and location, the latter two draw players in. Nobody would ever argue Miami can't get top-drawer talent. The proof is there. I can see how Bamas tradition and location feed their success. I'm not sure I see the $$ part of it as clearly as you seem to.

    So what the point of your post? Miami's a JC program because the Athletic Department revenue is pedestrian? That seems like a mind-bogglingly stupid argument.

    Miami is irrelevant too. Enough.
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    haiehaie Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 20,761
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    Womp. Christ.

    Ohio State, LSU, Bama, USC (historically), Miami, Florida State, most of the SEC don't have money. Texas, ND, Stanford, Michigan and Northwestern have $$. I'm not seeing the importance of that variable.

    Location. Many programs are in much better locations nearer to fertile recruiting grounds.

    Tradition. That's the point of my poast. Only lasts so long. As evidenced by Michigan's drought.

    That's a lot of ifs in your poast. My aunt and my uncle are different people. Nuff said on that.

    He didnt' whip anybody. He was gifted a title on a bad call.

    Really disappointed in your effert here. I've come to expect moar.

    What the fuck universe are you living in? OSU, Bama, and LSU are all in the top 10 of AD revenue. FSU is top 15, and I’m sure USC would be too if they released their financials. Meanwhile no one would ever try to make the case that Miami is anywhere close to a blue blood - their success was brief and was 98% due to location. Money is and will forever be the #1 deciding factor in college football. To try to argue otherwise is mind-bogglingly stupid.
    I was talking about overall university resources.

    I'm also not sure what you mean by blue blood. If you want to compare entire histories, then no, other than producing some great players, Miami was not consistently good prior to the late 70s. Maybe it's selective application about when football was invented, or recency bias. But I think you're sweeping Miami aside with hyperbole when you say they aren't 'anywhere close to a blue blood." If you meant on a revenue basis, then sure, they are not a super rich program.

    If you meant on an accomplishment basis, then I think you're stretching unless you are putting a lot of weight on program accomplishment from - I don't know - a long time ago. They've won 5, come within an eyelash of three others, and won every major bowl outside of the Fiesta. They've produced a slew of All Americans and other major award winners, they've littered the NFL with impact players like no program in the country over the last 25+ years, they've fielded some of the best teams the game has seen, been part of some of the most legendary games and rivalries and streaks, and have stamped themselves as a fixture in the sport. And they've added traditions that are uniquely known for, and often copied.

    I can count on 1 finger the number of great Michigan teams I've seen the last 20 years. LSU was a middling program forever.

    And how is the fact that "98%" of Miami's success is due to location a problem exactly. I would score that as a big advantage. Their location isn't changing anytime soon, nor is the demographic of that location. What's the point of that as a criticism?

    Miami has been up and down since really arriving as a nationally-relevant program because of coaching. They had three very successful coaches leave for unique professional football opportunities, and each man eventually publicly admitted that they regretted leaving (including Jimmy Johnson). Each one of those coaches could have run Miami for a DJ-like tenure and kept them stable and winning for years. They didn't lose those guys because of money; they lost them because they were presented unique opportunities in their profession that they didn't think they could pass up. And still, with all those coaches, Miami still found a way to come back and win. 4 coaches winning 5 titles in 25 years. If that's what a poor program can do in Miami, then I'll take being poor, and you can focus on athletic department income statements and balance sheets.

    Put it this way. If as you say USC has a healthy AD revenue number as compared to Miami's, which I assume they do, do you think that has made a huge difference between the programs? We all know they got lucky af with Carroll, who was like 5th on the list when they got to him. So $$ didn't make that happen. Miami has better facilities now than they ever have.

    How specifically has Miami's relatively modest AD revenue kept them 'down' and the higher revenue of the blue bloods, like Texas, kept them 'up'? I don't see it.

    Sure, Bama has revenue, but they also have tradition and location, the latter two draw players in. Nobody would ever argue Miami can't get top-drawer talent. The proof is there. I can see how Bamas tradition and location feed their success. I'm not sure I see the $$ part of it as clearly as you seem to.

    So what the point of your post? Miami's a JC program because the Athletic Department revenue is pedestrian? That seems like a mind-bogglingly stupid argument.

    Miami is irrelevant too. Enough.
    It's clear the national media wants them to be great but Richt is not the guy.
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    sarktasticsarktastic Member Posts: 9,208
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    Talked with a Michigan grad yesterday about his thoughts on Harbaugh. Loves him. Everyone he knows loves Harbaugh. Better than Lloyd Carr, he says. He hasn’t been at Michigan long enuff to evaluate, yet.

    - drumroll -

    HE JUST NEEDS MORE TIMe
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