Happy Record Store Day you assholes

ApostleofGrief

Do 45rpm records include more sound spectrum due to their speed? Discuss

YellowSnow

Yes, but it has to do with longer grooves if you will. So on a 33.33 LP the songs on the outer grooves sound better as the cartridge is tracking over on longer distance. There's something called inner groove distortion where it's harder for the cart and tone arm to track the songs near the end of a side ( i.e., shorter orbit). When you take a LP and divide it into 2 x 45 RPM twelve inch discs you've got way more distance to work with overall.

Pitchfork51

i hope all record stores go out of business

Southerndawg

YellowSnow said:

Yes, but it has to do with longer grooves if you will. So on a 33.33 LP the songs on the outer grooves sound better as the cartridge is tracking over on longer distance. There's something called inner groove distortion where it's harder for the cart and tone arm to track the songs near the end of a side ( i.e., shorter orbit). When you take a LP and divide it into 2 x 45 RPM twelve inch discs you've got way more distance to work with overall.

The issue you're describing is only tangentially (pun intended) related to groove length. The issue is related to the tangential velocity at which the information was recorded.

Recall from your basic high school physics:
s = r*theta = groove length at a given radial distance, r, from the center of the album.
Vtangential = sdot = r*thetadot = r*omega, where omega is the angular velocity.

As r decreases from the outer grooves to the inner grooves, Vtangential decreases. When the album is cut, the information recorded via sound vibration becomes closer spaced (shorter wavelength) when the cutting stylus is closest to the center. This can affect both recording and playback, as can differences between turntable tone arm alignment and cutting stylus alignment.

YellowSnow

Southerndawg said:

YellowSnow said:

Yes, but it has to do with longer grooves if you will. So on a 33.33 LP the songs on the outer grooves sound better as the cartridge is tracking over on longer distance. There's something called inner groove distortion where it's harder for the cart and tone arm to track the songs near the end of a side ( i.e., shorter orbit). When you take a LP and divide it into 2 x 45 RPM twelve inch discs you've got way more distance to work with overall.

The issue you're describing is only tangentially (pun intended) related to groove length. The issue is related to the tangential velocity at which the information was recorded.

Recall from your basic high school physics:
s = r*theta = groove length at a given radial distance, r, from the center of the album.
Vtangential = sdot = r*thetadot = r*omega, where omega is the angular velocity.

As r decreases from the outer grooves to the inner grooves, Vtangential decreases. When the album is cut, the information recorded via sound vibration becomes closer spaced (shorter wavelength) when the cutting stylus is closest to the center. This can affect both recording and playback, as can differences between turntable tone arm alignment and cutting stylus alignment.

I don't speak engineering, unfortunately. That said, my reissues cut to two 45 rpm discs do sound better.

YellowSnow

Pitchfork51 said:

i hope all record stores go out of business

Fuck off and go eat a sauerkraut sammich.

Pitchfork51

YellowSnow said:

Pitchfork51 said:

i hope all record stores go out of business

Fuck off and go eat a sauerkraut sammich.

I actually just ate some sauerkraut

Southerndawg

YellowSnow said:

Southerndawg said:

YellowSnow said:

Yes, but it has to do with longer grooves if you will. So on a 33.33 LP the songs on the outer grooves sound better as the cartridge is tracking over on longer distance. There's something called inner groove distortion where it's harder for the cart and tone arm to track the songs near the end of a side ( i.e., shorter orbit). When you take a LP and divide it into 2 x 45 RPM twelve inch discs you've got way more distance to work with overall.

The issue you're describing is only tangentially (pun intended) related to groove length. The issue is related to the tangential velocity at which the information was recorded.

Recall from your basic high school physics:
s = r*theta = groove length at a given radial distance, r, from the center of the album.
Vtangential = sdot = r*thetadot = r*omega, where omega is the angular velocity.

As r decreases from the outer grooves to the inner grooves, Vtangential decreases. When the album is cut, the information recorded via sound vibration becomes closer spaced (shorter wavelength) when the cutting stylus is closest to the center. This can affect both recording and playback, as can differences between turntable tone arm alignment and cutting stylus alignment.

I don't speak engineering, unfortunately. That said, my reissues cut to two 45 rpm discs do sound better.

Since the LP and the 45s are the same size, that makes sense. They probably have wider grooves too, which would allow for recording at higher sound levels and greater dynamic range.

ApostleofGrief

I feel like this is linear and there is just more room occupied with shorter orbits of inner tracks. I have to think about this and reread the above which some of it sounds like improvised... I did have my needle weighted too heavy I discovered which caused wow and flutter.

ApostleofGrief

Right I remember.. The outer tracks move faster so would result in inner tracks having more compression. I think.

YellowSnow

Ok so @Southerndawg is tabbed for physics consultant of the music bored. Next up what is an OHM and how does that relate to speaker impedance.

BennyBeaver

I was told there would be no maff.

YellowSnow

BennyBeaver said:

I was told there would be no maff.

Tell me about.

El_K

I remember going to Tower Records in Bellevue and just walking the aisles looking at the cassettes and the CD's.
Sleeping outside to buy tickets to concerts there was a thing too.

ApostleofGrief

YellowSnow said:

Ok so @Southerndawg is tabbed for physics consultant of the music bored. Next up what is an OHM and how does that relate to speaker impedance.

Ohms measure resistance. The lower the resistance the more current by ohm's law (current is voltage / resistance). If there is more current the speaker is louder. Impedance is a somewhat more refined term for resistance including effects of coils and capacitors and phase angles but in common usage resistance and impedance get conflated.

YellowSnow

Pitchfork51 said:

YellowSnow said:

Pitchfork51 said:

i hope all record stores go out of business

Fuck off and go eat a sauerkraut sammich.

I actually just ate some sauerkraut

Sauerkraut was perhaps the Fatherland's greatest contribution to mankind. Kept the sea men from getting scurvy before citrus made its way onto voyages of exploration.

Southerndawg

ApostleofGrief said:

YellowSnow said:

Ok so @Southerndawg is tabbed for physics consultant of the music bored. Next up what is an OHM and how does that relate to speaker impedance.

Ohms measure resistance. The lower the resistance the more current by ohm's law (current is voltage / resistance). If there is more current the speaker is louder. Impedance is a somewhat more refined term for resistance including effects of coils and capacitors and phase angles but in common usage resistance and impedance get conflated.

Close. Without diving into a discussion on system dynamics, and assuming we're discussing speaker impedance, lower impedance means the speaker will draw more current at a given power setting than a higher impedance speaker will. Keeping it simple, by Ohms Law, P = IV = I^2R, P=power, V=voltage, I= current, R=resistance. Lower impedance does not mean the speaker will be louder, but it does mean it will pull more current from the amp at a given power setting, so low impedance speakers generally need high current amps to fully function lest the signal will clip and distort as the amp is stressed.

It is also worth noting that speaker impedance is not fixed. Some designs, especially those that utilize electrostatic transducers can see dramatic dynamic impedance drops to one ohm or less. If you want something like that to sound good, you have to invest in a very good high current amp.

ApostleofGrief

Southerndawg said:

ApostleofGrief said:

YellowSnow said:

Ok so @Southerndawg is tabbed for physics consultant of the music bored. Next up what is an OHM and how does that relate to speaker impedance.

Ohms measure resistance. The lower the resistance the more current by ohm's law (current is voltage / resistance). If there is more current the speaker is louder. Impedance is a somewhat more refined term for resistance including effects of coils and capacitors and phase angles but in common usage resistance and impedance get conflated.

Close. Without diving into a discussion on system dynamics, and assuming we're discussing speaker impedance, lower impedance means the speaker will draw more current at a given power setting than a higher impedance speaker will. Keeping it simple, by Ohms Law, P = IV = I^2R, P=power, V=voltage, I= current, R=resistance. Lower impedance does not mean the speaker will be louder, but it does mean it will pull more current from the amp at a given power setting, so low impedance speakers generally need high current amps to fully function lest the signal will clip and distort as the amp is stressed.

It is also worth noting that speaker impedance is not fixed. Some designs, especially those that utilize electrostatic transducers can see dramatic dynamic impedance drops to one ohm or less. If you want something like that to sound good, you have to invest in a very good high current amp.

Ok. I was reading around the internets and one thing to be aware of us drawing too much current from your amp. So if you swap out 8 ohm speakers for 4 ohm speakers and you are accustomed to a certain volume setting on your dial, you are pushing your amp harder to supply the current, so there is a risk of some kind of blow out somewhere. But, it seems like the kind of thing you can do by feel -- if your amp is smoking hot to the touch or your speakers are starting to distort back off the volume level.

YellowSnow

ApostleofGrief said:

Southerndawg said:

ApostleofGrief said:

YellowSnow said:

Ok so @Southerndawg is tabbed for physics consultant of the music bored. Next up what is an OHM and how does that relate to speaker impedance.

Ohms measure resistance. The lower the resistance the more current by ohm's law (current is voltage / resistance). If there is more current the speaker is louder. Impedance is a somewhat more refined term for resistance including effects of coils and capacitors and phase angles but in common usage resistance and impedance get conflated.

Close. Without diving into a discussion on system dynamics, and assuming we're discussing speaker impedance, lower impedance means the speaker will draw more current at a given power setting than a higher impedance speaker will. Keeping it simple, by Ohms Law, P = IV = I^2R, P=power, V=voltage, I= current, R=resistance. Lower impedance does not mean the speaker will be louder, but it does mean it will pull more current from the amp at a given power setting, so low impedance speakers generally need high current amps to fully function lest the signal will clip and distort as the amp is stressed.

It is also worth noting that speaker impedance is not fixed. Some designs, especially those that utilize electrostatic transducers can see dramatic dynamic impedance drops to one ohm or less. If you want something like that to sound good, you have to invest in a very good high current amp.

Ok. I was reading around the internets and one thing to be aware of us drawing too much current from your amp. So if you swap out 8 ohm speakers for 4 ohm speakers and you are accustomed to a certain volume setting on your dial, you are pushing your amp harder to supply the current, so there is a risk of some kind of blow out somewhere. But, it seems like the kind of thing you can do by feel -- if your amp is smoking hot to the touch or your speakers are starting to distort back off the volume level.

This is why you need McIntosh Power Gaurd! No clipping. My McIntosh amp from circa 1980 has this. http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/power-guard.27366/

ApostleofGrief

YellowSnow said:

ApostleofGrief said:

Southerndawg said:

ApostleofGrief said:

YellowSnow said:

Ok so @Southerndawg is tabbed for physics consultant of the music bored. Next up what is an OHM and how does that relate to speaker impedance.

Ohms measure resistance. The lower the resistance the more current by ohm's law (current is voltage / resistance). If there is more current the speaker is louder. Impedance is a somewhat more refined term for resistance including effects of coils and capacitors and phase angles but in common usage resistance and impedance get conflated.

Close. Without diving into a discussion on system dynamics, and assuming we're discussing speaker impedance, lower impedance means the speaker will draw more current at a given power setting than a higher impedance speaker will. Keeping it simple, by Ohms Law, P = IV = I^2R, P=power, V=voltage, I= current, R=resistance. Lower impedance does not mean the speaker will be louder, but it does mean it will pull more current from the amp at a given power setting, so low impedance speakers generally need high current amps to fully function lest the signal will clip and distort as the amp is stressed.

It is also worth noting that speaker impedance is not fixed. Some designs, especially those that utilize electrostatic transducers can see dramatic dynamic impedance drops to one ohm or less. If you want something like that to sound good, you have to invest in a very good high current amp.

Ok. I was reading around the internets and one thing to be aware of us drawing too much current from your amp. So if you swap out 8 ohm speakers for 4 ohm speakers and you are accustomed to a certain volume setting on your dial, you are pushing your amp harder to supply the current, so there is a risk of some kind of blow out somewhere. But, it seems like the kind of thing you can do by feel -- if your amp is smoking hot to the touch or your speakers are starting to distort back off the volume level.

This is why you need McIntosh Power Gaurd! No clipping. My McIntosh amp from circa 1980 has this. http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/power-guard.27366/

I inherited an old Harmon/Kardon amp. Stupidly I donated my Dad's old turntable, and just have a cheap one but the cartridge and needle are OK. I suppose I could blow my amp out -- on the back it says 8 ohms but my speakers are 4 ohm.

But, I think my original question about 45s vs 33rpm is answered. I think the most sound spectrum and true to life reproduction would be on the outer tracks of faster moving records. So the best would be from the outer edges of a 45rpm, the worst from the inner tracks of a 33rpm

While the geek details are interesting: Of course with volume, beer/drugs, and or women (sex/drugs/rockandroll or wine/women/song) it makes no difference whatsoever.

Pitchfork51

ILROTNAH