And Mario Elie was going to slow down Jordan? We already know how Drexler on Jordan played out.
The point is that video is food for thought. 4 straight years of making runs to the Finals and playing a very good Rockets team would not have been a gimme for Jordan. This is where credit is due to LeBron. Staying power greater than anyone in history.
Honestly, the only thing that could stop Jordan was if you took his supporting crew out of the picture. The supporting cast wasn't quite ready for prime time in those early series with Detroit. Once they got there you couldn't stop Jordan.
This is the kind of low-rent, extreme double-standard hypocrisy that drives me up the fucking wall. I'm done talking about this.
How is there a double standard? I'm legitimately interested in hearing where you think it came from?
The reality is that when MJ came into the league his roster wasn't good and it took time to build it up. His early playoff lessons came from playing against 5 teams that at worst made it to the NBA Finals with 2 of those being losses in the East Finals.
I don't really hold anything to LBJ when it came to his first Cleveland stint. But once he moved to Miami and then back to Cleveland, he's more or less driven player moves and his supporting cast has at worst been on par with what Jordan had and arguably better.
LeBron is a great talent ... that's never an argument with me. But he's not the GOAT like people want to crown him as. He just isn't.
Let me ask the question to you this way ...
How many of LBJ's teams that got to the Finals would you take in a series against the '96 Sonics?
And Mario Elie was going to slow down Jordan? We already know how Drexler on Jordan played out.
The point is that video is food for thought. 4 straight years of making runs to the Finals and playing a very good Rockets team would not have been a gimme for Jordan. This is where credit is due to LeBron. Staying power greater than anyone in history.
I'll give LBJ credit for making it to a number of different Finals ... that being said he's also benefiting from greater nutrition, therapy, etc. knowledge than what was in place 25-30 years ago. One thing that I think needs to be said about LBJ with respect to his "staying power" is that he's often used the regular season to rest and cover some of the energy needed for these long seasons. In his 15 year NBA career, he's played 78 or more games in a season only 7 times. In contrast, Jordan did so 11 of his 13 seasons with the Bulls (only times he didn't was when he broke his foot early in his career and when he came back mid-season in '95) as well as playing 82 games at the age of 39 playing 37 minutes per night.
I would have loved to see Jordan's Bulls play against peak Hakeem ... there's no question that that would have been the most difficult challenge for the Bulls. That being said, how many times did Jordan's Bulls beat Ewing in the Playoffs? We all remember aging Ewing but a lot of those battles against New York came relatively earlier in Ewing's career before his knees really started going down south.
Honestly, the only thing that could stop Jordan was if you took his supporting crew out of the picture. The supporting cast wasn't quite ready for prime time in those early series with Detroit. Once they got there you couldn't stop Jordan.
It's like you took some ~2009ish Kobe fanboy, beat him in the head with a brick until he was functionally retarded, waterboarded him 500 times, castrated him, and then asked him his opinion on LeBron. I find it hard to believe people are this stupid. And I'm a Tequilla fan when he isn't talking about basketball but holy shit. You've lost me permanently. Maybe stop while you're behind.
What part is stupid?
The fact that I think that an argument that LBJ >>> MJ is foolish?
I've yet to hear a single compelling argument that makes me considering changing my opinion. I'm open to any fact set that would make me reconsider my opinion. However, as we SHOULD know in recent years, just looking at stats doesn't hold much (see Russell Westbrook). If I thought that stats were super compelling then I would say that you'd need to rank Wilt and Oscar much higher.
I have conceded in recent years that I'd put LBJ ahead of Bird in my all-time rankings (I had Bird at #5). I think a discussion with LBJ vs Magic is a worthy argument on merit. I don't think LBJ is ahead of Kareem at this point (who I have at #3). And if he's not ahead of Kareem, then he's not ahead of Russell or Jordan. And for the record, I think that there's a pretty sizeable gap between Russell and Jordan.
I think that there's a fairly compelling Top 6 of All-Time at this point with LBJ moving into that realm and then it gets really congested between 7 and 15.
And for those that want more ammo about how I "slight" LBJ ... he had a fabulous game today.
That being said, if Tristan Thompson doesn't come off the bench for 15 and 10 today or George Hill doesn't somehow find a way to play 15 minutes in the 2nd half the Cavs would have been in big trouble today despite what LBJ did.
We'll have a great litmus test coming in the next series vs Toronto. Toronto has NOBODY that can stop LBJ and he'll have a huge series. However, the balance of the team in Toronto will outplay the Cavs in a greater variance than what Indiana was able to do. The big question will be can Toronto vanquish their Cavs/LBJ demons.
They've got a tremendous young foundation in Oladipo, Turner, and Sabonis. They've got a good chance of picking up a solid player in the draft (wouldn't be shocked if they were to get a buy like Jalen Brunson who would fit what they do quite well), a bit of cap space, and the opportunity for a ton of cap space coming in 2019 as they have a lot of expiring deals going into next year that they can either ride out or leverage for a trade.
Fuck off Tequilla. We have this argument every year and every year you hate LeBron.
I have no problem admitting that he's not my favorite.
That doesn't mean that I'm incapable of slotting him where he should be in the pecking order of the all-time greats.
Let's take the Jordan argument out of play ... what are arguments for LBJ being higher than Russell, Kareem, and Magic?
Just taking Magic vs LBJ, here's how I see it:
Both have comparable resumes when it comes to MVPs so that becomes a bit of a wash to me.
Both played in conferences where by and large they were the dominant force during their career with modest competition compared to the other conference.
From '80 to '91, Magic went to the Finals 9 of 12 years. From '07 to '17, LBJ went to the Finals 8 of 11 years. Again, that's largely comparable to me.
The difference is that Magic won 5 titles and LBJ has won 3 titles. Of Magic's 5 titles, his Game 6 performance in '80 was an All-Time performance. He was the reigning MVP of the league in both '87 and '88. The '82 and '85 titles you could argue how much of those teams were Kareem's teams versus Magic's teams. Magic's titles were 2 against Philly and Dr. J and 2 against Boston and Larry Bird. In both instances, those era of teams are on the relatively short list of best team runs of all time. The other title was on the front end of Detroit's 3 straight Finals appearances that led to 2 NBA Titles. Magic's title losses were to Dr J + Moses, Bird, Pistons (with a lot of Lakers injuries), and MJ. It's a collection of a who's who on the All-Time list.
In contrast to Magic, LeBron has had 2 such instances where his trips to the Finals have come against what could be considered All-Time teams in the Spurs and Warriors. In both instances, LBJ is 1-2 in those situations whereas Magic was 2-1 in both Finals appearances against the 76ers and Celtics.
It's minor details, but when judging at the top of the mountain, these are the kind of details that magnify differences.
I'll go as far as saying that IF LBJ gets himself up to 5 titles with Magic I'd move him ahead as I think you can make an argument that the resume as a whole looks better. But those 2 titles are a big separator right now in what are largely comparable resumes.
I’m genuinely excited to watch the NBA Finals matchup this year between the Rockets and the Warriors.
Should be a tremendous series ... the Warriors are going to need a relatively healthy Curry to pull it out.
My expectation is that it'd be a series that goes 7 and the Warriors pull it out on the road. But I definitely think that the Rockets will likely jump out early in the series and the Warriors will likely have to win Games 6 and 7 to win the series.
They've got a tremendous young foundation in Oladipo, Turner, and Sabonis. They've got a good chance of picking up a solid player in the draft (wouldn't be shocked if they were to get a buy like Jalen Brunson who would fit what they do quite well), a bit of cap space, and the opportunity for a ton of cap space coming in 2019 as they have a lot of expiring deals going into next year that they can either ride out or leverage for a trade.
They are a non factor. Boston and Philly have way better foundations.
I’m genuinely excited to watch the NBA Finals matchup this year between the Rockets and the Warriors.
Should be a tremendous series ... the Warriors are going to need a relatively healthy Curry to pull it out.
My expectation is that it'd be a series that goes 7 and the Warriors pull it out on the road. But I definitely think that the Rockets will likely jump out early in the series and the Warriors will likely have to win Games 6 and 7 to win the series.
As much as people give CP3 shit for being a loser I thinks it’s clear this year that he was playing with a bunch of losers in LAC. He’s a great PG and deserves a championship.
I’m not a big Harden guy but his story is cool. Known as the 3rd wheel in OKC and got laughed at when he wanted big dick money and now is one of the best players in the NBA and has built a great team around him. Pretty much the opposite of what Durant did.
They've got a tremendous young foundation in Oladipo, Turner, and Sabonis. They've got a good chance of picking up a solid player in the draft (wouldn't be shocked if they were to get a buy like Jalen Brunson who would fit what they do quite well), a bit of cap space, and the opportunity for a ton of cap space coming in 2019 as they have a lot of expiring deals going into next year that they can either ride out or leverage for a trade.
They are a non factor. Boston and Philly have way better foundations.
I agree with that ...
The odds that Indiana gets out of the East is probably quite limited ... they could have a similar run in them comparable to what Milwaukee had in the early to mid 80s. They are far from a finished product at this point though. Their challenge will be how do they manage their cap space heading into 2019 when they should have a bunch available. Can they get a really good piece that complements that foundation and/or get something in the draft that complements them. They'll need some help for sure to get past Boston and Philly but I could definitely see a trip or two to at worst the Eastern Finals in their future.
Comments
Brilliant analysis. Back to hockey...fuck
The reality is that when MJ came into the league his roster wasn't good and it took time to build it up. His early playoff lessons came from playing against 5 teams that at worst made it to the NBA Finals with 2 of those being losses in the East Finals.
I don't really hold anything to LBJ when it came to his first Cleveland stint. But once he moved to Miami and then back to Cleveland, he's more or less driven player moves and his supporting cast has at worst been on par with what Jordan had and arguably better.
LeBron is a great talent ... that's never an argument with me. But he's not the GOAT like people want to crown him as. He just isn't.
Let me ask the question to you this way ...
How many of LBJ's teams that got to the Finals would you take in a series against the '96 Sonics?
The fact that I think that an argument that LBJ >>> MJ is foolish?
I've yet to hear a single compelling argument that makes me considering changing my opinion. I'm open to any fact set that would make me reconsider my opinion. However, as we SHOULD know in recent years, just looking at stats doesn't hold much (see Russell Westbrook). If I thought that stats were super compelling then I would say that you'd need to rank Wilt and Oscar much higher.
I have conceded in recent years that I'd put LBJ ahead of Bird in my all-time rankings (I had Bird at #5). I think a discussion with LBJ vs Magic is a worthy argument on merit. I don't think LBJ is ahead of Kareem at this point (who I have at #3). And if he's not ahead of Kareem, then he's not ahead of Russell or Jordan. And for the record, I think that there's a pretty sizeable gap between Russell and Jordan.
I think that there's a fairly compelling Top 6 of All-Time at this point with LBJ moving into that realm and then it gets really congested between 7 and 15.
That being said, if Tristan Thompson doesn't come off the bench for 15 and 10 today or George Hill doesn't somehow find a way to play 15 minutes in the 2nd half the Cavs would have been in big trouble today despite what LBJ did.
We'll have a great litmus test coming in the next series vs Toronto. Toronto has NOBODY that can stop LBJ and he'll have a huge series. However, the balance of the team in Toronto will outplay the Cavs in a greater variance than what Indiana was able to do. The big question will be can Toronto vanquish their Cavs/LBJ demons.
I'll go with Toronto in 6.
That doesn't mean that I'm incapable of slotting him where he should be in the pecking order of the all-time greats.
Let's take the Jordan argument out of play ... what are arguments for LBJ being higher than Russell, Kareem, and Magic?
Just taking Magic vs LBJ, here's how I see it:
Both have comparable resumes when it comes to MVPs so that becomes a bit of a wash to me.
Both played in conferences where by and large they were the dominant force during their career with modest competition compared to the other conference.
From '80 to '91, Magic went to the Finals 9 of 12 years. From '07 to '17, LBJ went to the Finals 8 of 11 years. Again, that's largely comparable to me.
The difference is that Magic won 5 titles and LBJ has won 3 titles. Of Magic's 5 titles, his Game 6 performance in '80 was an All-Time performance. He was the reigning MVP of the league in both '87 and '88. The '82 and '85 titles you could argue how much of those teams were Kareem's teams versus Magic's teams. Magic's titles were 2 against Philly and Dr. J and 2 against Boston and Larry Bird. In both instances, those era of teams are on the relatively short list of best team runs of all time. The other title was on the front end of Detroit's 3 straight Finals appearances that led to 2 NBA Titles. Magic's title losses were to Dr J + Moses, Bird, Pistons (with a lot of Lakers injuries), and MJ. It's a collection of a who's who on the All-Time list.
In contrast to Magic, LeBron has had 2 such instances where his trips to the Finals have come against what could be considered All-Time teams in the Spurs and Warriors. In both instances, LBJ is 1-2 in those situations whereas Magic was 2-1 in both Finals appearances against the 76ers and Celtics.
It's minor details, but when judging at the top of the mountain, these are the kind of details that magnify differences.
I'll go as far as saying that IF LBJ gets himself up to 5 titles with Magic I'd move him ahead as I think you can make an argument that the resume as a whole looks better. But those 2 titles are a big separator right now in what are largely comparable resumes.
My expectation is that it'd be a series that goes 7 and the Warriors pull it out on the road. But I definitely think that the Rockets will likely jump out early in the series and the Warriors will likely have to win Games 6 and 7 to win the series.
The only ones that think LeBron is better than Jordan are the ones that were filling diapers when MJ was collecting rings.
I’m not a big Harden guy but his story is cool. Known as the 3rd wheel in OKC and got laughed at when he wanted big dick money and now is one of the best players in the NBA and has built a great team around him. Pretty much the opposite of what Durant did.
The odds that Indiana gets out of the East is probably quite limited ... they could have a similar run in them comparable to what Milwaukee had in the early to mid 80s. They are far from a finished product at this point though. Their challenge will be how do they manage their cap space heading into 2019 when they should have a bunch available. Can they get a really good piece that complements that foundation and/or get something in the draft that complements them. They'll need some help for sure to get past Boston and Philly but I could definitely see a trip or two to at worst the Eastern Finals in their future.