Guns or Liberty?
Comments
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Many, many compromises have been made since the 1920s or 30s. And we've come to the point that state and local gun control measures have been struck down as unconstitutional.YellowSnow said:
You know what the Founding Father's excelled at? Making compromises - that's what! The entire document is one big long set of compromises.Sledog said:A few quotes from the brightest men.
"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785
"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824
"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823
"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788
"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788
We? don't want to take away all yer Guns. We? want the militia to be well regulated. At the moment, it is not. This 2nd amendment absolutism is going to doom your rights for generations to come if no compromise is made. -
Using the rise of The Third Reich in a discussion about 2nd Amendment Rights is one heck of a lousy historical analogy to make. Fascist dictatorship took hold in Germany because the country had no track record of successful democratic intuitions in its history. It didn't have anything to do with who owned guns or did not.pawz said:My biggest fear is we are all being played by a much larger, sinister threat. Are those clamoring for gun control a fan of what has manifested from the passage of the Patriot Act?
Don't forget, when Hitler took over Germany he made a point of doing so under the guise and authority of the standing Republic's constitution.
Our current system gave us two "choices" DJT and HRC. The best America has to offer??
The loss of life - especially a child's - is never acceptable. But as the noose tightens on the liberty we've come to take for granted, there is so much more at stake. -
Well, if the fuckers can't get the guns in the schools, it's kind of hard to shoot up the fucking school, don't you think?doogie said:Seems to me, these attacks are over in a matter of a few minutes. Without armed support in the schools themselves, or the threat a school “ could” have armed support ( as compared with a badge proudly proclaiming THIS school is unprotected) not sure what the detectors would accomplish.
How about a badge proudly warning: THIS school has Trained Marshall’s on site who MAY be armed.
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I know you're being sarcastic but it's a fuckload better than letting an armed assassin wander into a cafeteria. Post 2 cops at the entrance of each school every fucking morning when students file in. 15 minutes max.UWhuskytskeet said:
Yes, the beeping would surely annoy the shooter into submission.PurpleThrobber said:The solution seems pretty simple to me.
Metal detectors at all schools. We are sadly subjected to them at sporting events, airports, government buildings, etc.
It's not a perfect solution but for those shouting 'do something', it is certainly low hanging fruit. It's not going to deter something like the DC Sniper(s) who picked people off at a distance. But certainly within the walls of the school building, the kids are safe.
Instead we dick around discussing the degree of which guns should and shouldn't be banned.
This isn't fucking rocket science.
People don't fuck with armored cars because you know....MACHINE FUCKING GUNS. Instead they knock off 7-11's where there's no armed presence.
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The obvious question is how do you implement in such a way that the metal detectors actually prevent someone who is packing from just pulling the gun out and saying "let me through the detectors or I shoot"? I suppose there's a way that if there's a metal detector breach at some sort of pre school entrance then it locks down the school automatically but that's some serious technological infrastructure to add, which brings us back to funding. Also makes it feel like you're dropping your kids off at prison everyday, but yeah.PurpleThrobber said:
Well, if the fuckers can't get the guns in the schools, it's kind of hard to shoot up the fucking school, don't you think?doogie said:Seems to me, these attacks are over in a matter of a few minutes. Without armed support in the schools themselves, or the threat a school “ could” have armed support ( as compared with a badge proudly proclaiming THIS school is unprotected) not sure what the detectors would accomplish.
How about a badge proudly warning: THIS school has Trained Marshall’s on site who MAY be armed.
I think we'll chinevitably end up there, just not sure how soon.
And once schools are off the top of the "shoot up the world" list I assume these fuckers will move on to the next chinstitution. Churches? Chinstitutions of Higher Discussion, er Learning?
Fixing the school problem is important, but probably just a bandaid. -
I'm more about 'doing something' than perpetually wringing our hands. The same shit that was in place in 1983 is still in place today. Save maybe some bump-stock laws. Woo-hoo. Awesome work.dnc said:
The obvious question is how do you implement in such a way that the metal detectors actually prevent someone who is packing from just pulling the gun out and saying "let me through the detectors or I shoot"? I suppose there's a way that if there's a metal detector breach at some sort of pre school entrance then it locks down the school automatically but that's some serious technological infrastructure to add, which brings us back to funding. Also makes it feel like you're dropping your kids off at prison everyday, but yeah.PurpleThrobber said:
Well, if the fuckers can't get the guns in the schools, it's kind of hard to shoot up the fucking school, don't you think?doogie said:Seems to me, these attacks are over in a matter of a few minutes. Without armed support in the schools themselves, or the threat a school “ could” have armed support ( as compared with a badge proudly proclaiming THIS school is unprotected) not sure what the detectors would accomplish.
How about a badge proudly warning: THIS school has Trained Marshall’s on site who MAY be armed.
I think we'll chinevitably end up there, just not sure how soon.
And once schools are off the top of the "shoot up the world" list I assume these fuckers will move on to the next chinstitution. Churches? Chinstitutions of Higher Discussion, er Learning?
Fixing the school problem is important, but probably just a bandaid.
Every high school in this country could ax one administrator and pay for a metal detector. EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM.
If somebody has a better idea on what to do RIGHT NOW - fire away (no pun intended). But we (?) will continue to dick around and do nothing and more kids will get shot at every single week.
EIGHTEEN shootings in 6 weeks so far this year.
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When was the last time we heard of a mass school shooting in the hood?PurpleThrobber said:
I know you're being sarcastic but it's a fuckload better than letting an armed assassin wander into a cafeteria. Post 2 cops at the entrance of each school every fucking morning when students file in. 15 minutes max.UWhuskytskeet said:
Yes, the beeping would surely annoy the shooter into submission.PurpleThrobber said:The solution seems pretty simple to me.
Metal detectors at all schools. We are sadly subjected to them at sporting events, airports, government buildings, etc.
It's not a perfect solution but for those shouting 'do something', it is certainly low hanging fruit. It's not going to deter something like the DC Sniper(s) who picked people off at a distance. But certainly within the walls of the school building, the kids are safe.
Instead we dick around discussing the degree of which guns should and shouldn't be banned.
This isn't fucking rocket science.
People don't fuck with armored cars because you know....MACHINE FUCKING GUNS. Instead they knock off 7-11's where there's no armed presence. -
I'm not saying the metal detectors would cost too much, just saying the tech to lock the entire school down if there's a metal detector breach would be cost preventative. And without that tech, schools remain the primary target, it means shooters have to wait until everyone is in their classrooms, then make their entrance by taking out the one or two people watching the metal detectors.PurpleThrobber said:
I'm more about 'doing something' than perpetually wringing our hands. The same shit that was in place in 1983 is still in place today. Save maybe some bump-stock laws. Woo-hoo. Awesome work.dnc said:
The obvious question is how do you implement in such a way that the metal detectors actually prevent someone who is packing from just pulling the gun out and saying "let me through the detectors or I shoot"? I suppose there's a way that if there's a metal detector breach at some sort of pre school entrance then it locks down the school automatically but that's some serious technological infrastructure to add, which brings us back to funding. Also makes it feel like you're dropping your kids off at prison everyday, but yeah.PurpleThrobber said:
Well, if the fuckers can't get the guns in the schools, it's kind of hard to shoot up the fucking school, don't you think?doogie said:Seems to me, these attacks are over in a matter of a few minutes. Without armed support in the schools themselves, or the threat a school “ could” have armed support ( as compared with a badge proudly proclaiming THIS school is unprotected) not sure what the detectors would accomplish.
How about a badge proudly warning: THIS school has Trained Marshall’s on site who MAY be armed.
I think we'll chinevitably end up there, just not sure how soon.
And once schools are off the top of the "shoot up the world" list I assume these fuckers will move on to the next chinstitution. Churches? Chinstitutions of Higher Discussion, er Learning?
Fixing the school problem is important, but probably just a bandaid.
Every high school in this country could ax one administrator and pay for a metal detector. EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM.
If somebody has a better idea on what to do RIGHT NOW - fire away (no pun intended). But we (?) will continue to dick around and do nothing and more kids will get shot at every single week.
EIGHTEEN shootings in 6 weeks so far this year.
But having the detectors in place at least chincreases the degree of difficulty, which I'm all for. -
It's all happened before. I'd rather have armed guards then metal detectors as I think it would be cheaper and more effective.dnc said:
The obvious question is how do you implement in such a way that the metal detectors actually prevent someone who is packing from just pulling the gun out and saying "let me through the detectors or I shoot"? I suppose there's a way that if there's a metal detector breach at some sort of pre school entrance then it locks down the school automatically but that's some serious technological infrastructure to add, which brings us back to funding. Also makes it feel like you're dropping your kids off at prison everyday, but yeah.PurpleThrobber said:
Well, if the fuckers can't get the guns in the schools, it's kind of hard to shoot up the fucking school, don't you think?doogie said:Seems to me, these attacks are over in a matter of a few minutes. Without armed support in the schools themselves, or the threat a school “ could” have armed support ( as compared with a badge proudly proclaiming THIS school is unprotected) not sure what the detectors would accomplish.
How about a badge proudly warning: THIS school has Trained Marshall’s on site who MAY be armed.
I think we'll chinevitably end up there, just not sure how soon.
And once schools are off the top of the "shoot up the world" list I assume these fuckers will move on to the next chinstitution. Churches? Chinstitutions of Higher Discussion, er Learning?
Fixing the school problem is important, but probably just a bandaid.
However I do believe that the areas where Philosophy majors go to class should be exempt from such protection. -
You only hear about the ones in old rich white neighborhoods. You also barely heard about the one just outside of Spokane last year 5 miles from my house.greenblood said:
When was the last time we heard of a mass school shooting in the hood?PurpleThrobber said:
I know you're being sarcastic but it's a fuckload better than letting an armed assassin wander into a cafeteria. Post 2 cops at the entrance of each school every fucking morning when students file in. 15 minutes max.UWhuskytskeet said:
Yes, the beeping would surely annoy the shooter into submission.PurpleThrobber said:The solution seems pretty simple to me.
Metal detectors at all schools. We are sadly subjected to them at sporting events, airports, government buildings, etc.
It's not a perfect solution but for those shouting 'do something', it is certainly low hanging fruit. It's not going to deter something like the DC Sniper(s) who picked people off at a distance. But certainly within the walls of the school building, the kids are safe.
Instead we dick around discussing the degree of which guns should and shouldn't be banned.
This isn't fucking rocket science.
People don't fuck with armored cars because you know....MACHINE FUCKING GUNS. Instead they knock off 7-11's where there's no armed presence.
