We do a really piss poor job of understanding and teaching context anymore. It's all facts, dates, and the politically correct conclusion for any given event. Bad people sometimes do amazingly good things, and good people sometimes do amazing bad things. And it looks a hell of a lot different 20, 50 or 100 years after the period when it was "normal" for the times. We don't ask "why or how did something like human bondage become normal in the idealistic New World?" Instead we condemn all those involved, naively concluding we would have done things completely differently had it been "us" back then versus "them." This oversight has plagued human history since the beginning of time and unfortunately, sanitizing or ignoring history dooms us to misunderstanding, and frequently repeating it. And we are repeating the fuck out of things today with Identity Politics and Group Think that we experienced almost a century ago and should all be the wiser for, but aren't.
I'm glad I started this thread. I have no answers. Just wondering what others think. This shit is complicated. I should probably just stay drunk. All this thinking hurts.
We do a really piss poor job of understanding and teaching context anymore. It's all facts, dates, and the politically correct conclusion for any given event. Bad people sometimes do amazingly good things, and good people sometimes do amazing bad things. And it looks a hell of a lot different 20, 50 or 100 years after the period when it was "normal" for the times. We don't ask "why or how did something like human bondage become normal in the idealistic New World?" Instead we condemn all those involved, naively concluding we would have done things completely differently had it been "us" back then versus "them." This oversight has plagued human history since the beginning of time and unfortunately, sanitizing or ignoring history dooms us to misunderstanding, and frequently repeating it. And we are repeating the fuck out of things today with Identity Politics and Group Think that we experienced almost a century ago and should all be the wiser for, but aren't.
Chew on that Boobs!
I actually agree with this.
On the other hand, it's fucked up to try to recreate the failed legacies of 150 years ago.
An excellent question sir. History seems divided on the subject as some groups bounce back pretty quickly while others keep holding onto the pain for a.very.long.time. - even when they forget what brought about their feelings in the first place.
Without debating if these feelings are justified, the common thread I see between groups that don't recover as quickly is they make their suffering part of (if not their entire) identity. Let's face it, that can happen pretty easily if you continue to experience prejudice and/or have people saying, "well, you aren't making it because of THIS" to you constantly.
And not unlike @BearsWiin 's UW-Oregon example, in some cases it doesn't go away until you've beaten those that previously oppressed you.
So unfortunately I don't have a time-based answer. I guess it just depends.
Good answer. The "beaten those that harmed you" is a great point. When whites are enslaved by blacks, I am moving onto the res.
It would depend on the reproduction ratio of educated vs. dumb people.
For instance a smart person will tell their kids that this is America and you make it on your work ethic.
A dumb person tells their kids they struggle to make it because they are paying for all of those worthless naggers to lay around all day and the Messicans are taking all the jobs.
People are taught both hate and acceptance. The more smart people there are the quicker the population moves on from bad things and vice versa.
There are a metric fuckton of dumb people in this country and they fuck like rabbits. So, to answer your question this race thing will end once everyone is brown in 200 years.
It would depend on the reproduction ratio of educated vs. dumb people.
For instance a smart person will tell their kids that this is America and you make it on your work ethic.
A dumb person tells their kids they struggle to make it because they are paying for all of those worthless naggers to lay around all day and the Messicans are taking all the jobs.
People are taught both hate and acceptance. The more smart people there are the quicker the population moves on from bad things and vice versa.
There are a metric fuckton of dumb people in this country and they fuck like rabbits. So, to answer your question this race thing will end once everyone is brown in 200 years.
The Idiocracy thesis. I can get behind that. I love that movie.
fortunately for us, the data doesn't actually bear that out.
What the data shows is that intelligence (as reflected in IQ scores) has increased dramatically over the past 75 years, but that gains on an generation-over-generation basis have slowed down, but are still occurring. A person scoring 100 (average intelligence) on an IQ test in 1932 would score 80 (deficient intelligence) today. But underdeveloped countries are closing the gap with developed countries, and relationships have been linked to increases in nutrition and education.
When I approach this debate, I tend to start from Jared Diamond “Guns, Germs, and Steel” sort of perspective, which is to say that history has favored some tribes and dealt a shitty hand to others. And that most of this was due to random accidents of history, geography, etc.- e.g., the Land of China, Europe, Fertile Crescent, etc., were all more suitable to civilization building than say Sub Saharan Africa or the Americas (pre Columbus). Hell, it’s relatively recent construct in human history that it is immoral for one tribe to fuck over another and take their land. I’m not saying we? should all have “white privilege” guilt or what have you so don’t twist, but we do have to acknowledge that fact the black tribes along the West Coast of Africa got fucked pretty bad by history in the past 500 years or so and we’re still living with the repercussions to this day.
In my view, the time to start rectifying the wrongs of history done to black Americans was in 1865, but this never really happened (politically it was probably impossible given the attitudes at the time). Slavery ended but was followed by another 100 years of 2nd class citizenship. On this subject: I think Daniel Patrick Monynihan’s controversial paper from 1965 “The Negro Family: The Case For National Action” is still relevant to this day, some 50 plus years after it was released. Here’s a link if you haven’t read it before and it’s annotated for this of you that struggle with TL;DR: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/the-moynihan-report-an-annotated-edition/404632/#Chapter III .
Consider that by the time that we? as a country started trying to undo the injustices of the previous 300 years or so with the Civil Rights Legislation of the mid 1960’s the breakdown of family structure in black America had already reached a critical juncture. The out of wedlock birth rate in 1965 amongst African Americans in 1965 was 26% (for Whites it was 3% in that year); today the number is 73% and for non-Hispanic Whites it’s grown to 29%. Keep in mind that there isn’t an example in human history of a culture suffering this level of breakdown in family structures and still having good results.
As it relates to Swaye’s OP, I don’t know the answer other than to say we as a country didn’t rectify wrongs of the past soon enough. And Race Bannon is right that a lot of that is on the Democratic Party of 1865 to 1965, and it can certainly be argued that Great Society Programs starting in the 1960’s haven’t yielded the hoped for results. What is clear it that a different approach is needed and I don’t think it’s just throwing money around- e.g., reparations.
I have a white friend who works at a family owned business in Memphis that uses temp agencies for their hires. They directly tell the temp agencies "we don't want any black people". The temp agencies send them the colorless labor they are looking for, my white friend is disgusted but still works for them, and this business keeps on turning a nifty profit.
I *get* the idea that none of *us* owned slaves and we're tired of hearing about it, but there are still a lot of cracka ass crackas in this country working to keep the negro down, and way too many white people acting like that isn't the case. Just yesterday another honkey frren posted on FB "Racism was almost dead in this country until Obama resurrected it".
People actually believe this shit.
I try not to get too biblical in here because I want to respect Little Jimmy's safe space, but Numbers 14:18 among other places says that the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the sons to the third and fourth generation. I don't think that's just some spiritual curse mumbo jumbo, I think there's a practical truth that the mistakes of one generation are going to echo into future generations.
Until crackas like me and the rest of us (not you Swaye or RoadDawg) are willing to face the hard truth that we've benefited from the oppression of blacks and other minorities even if we didn't directly choose or cause it ourselves, this shit is going to keep on reverberating to future generations. And yes, rednecks clinging to their Rebel flags (hi J!) and confederate monuments aren't helping us move past the sins of the 20th century, let alone the 19th.
I have a white friend who works at a family owned business in Memphis that uses temp agencies for their hires. They directly tell the temp agencies "we don't want any black people". The temp agencies send them the colorless labor they are looking for, my white friend is disgusted but still works for them, and this business keeps on turning a nifty profit.
I *get* the idea that none of *us* owned slaves and we're tired of hearing about it, but there are still a lot of cracka ass crackas in this country working to keep the negro down, and way too many white people acting like that isn't the case. Just yesterday another honkey frren posted on FB "Racism was almost dead in this country until Obama resurrected it".
People actually believe this shit.
I try not to get too biblical in here because I want to respect Little Jimmy's safe space, but Numbers 14:18 among other places says that the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the sons to the third and fourth generation. I don't think that's just some spiritual curse mumbo jumbo, I think there's a practical truth that the mistakes of one generation are going to echo into future generations.
Until crackas like me and the rest of us (not you Swaye or RoadDawg) are willing to face the hard truth that we've benefited from the oppression of blacks and other minorities even if we didn't directly choose or cause it ourselves, this shit is going to keep on reverberating to future generations. And yes, rednecks clinging to their Rebel flags (hi J!) and confederate monuments aren't helping us move past the sins of the 20th century, let alone the 19th.
Even a flaming, Mainline Protestant Christian Atheist like myself can agree that there's a lot of wisdom in the good book...even it's the word of men and not god.
When I approach this debate, I tend to start from Jared Diamond “Guns, Germs, and Steel” sort of perspective, which is to say that history has favored some tribes and dealt a shitty hand to others. And that most of this was due to random accidents of history, geography, etc.- e.g., the Land of China, Europe, Fertile Crescent, etc., were all more suitable to civilization building than say Sub Saharan Africa or the Americas (pre Columbus). Hell, it’s relatively recent construct in human history that it is immoral for one tribe to fuck over another and take their land. I’m not saying we? should all have “white privilege” guilt or what have you so don’t twist, but we do have to acknowledge that fact the black tribes along the West Coast of Africa got fucked pretty bad by history in the past 500 years or so and we’re still living with the repercussions to this day.
In my view, the time to start rectifying the wrongs of history done to black Americans was in 1865, but this never really happened (politically it was probably impossible given the attitudes at the time). Slavery ended but was followed by another 100 years of 2nd class citizenship. On this subject: I think Daniel Patrick Monynihan’s controversial paper from 1965 “The Negro Family: The Case For National Action” is still relevant to this day, some 50 plus years after it was released. Here’s a link if you haven’t read it before and it’s annotated for this of you that struggle with TL;DR: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/the-moynihan-report-an-annotated-edition/404632/#Chapter III .
Consider that by the time that we? as a country started trying to undo the injustices of the previous 300 years or so with the Civil Rights Legislation of the mid 1960’s the breakdown of family structure in black America had already reached a critical juncture. The out of wedlock birth rate in 1965 amongst African Americans in 1965 was 26% (for Whites it was 3% in that year); today the number is 73% and for non-Hispanic Whites it’s grown to 29%. Keep in mind that there isn’t an example in human history of a culture suffering this level of breakdown in family structures and still having good results.
As it relates to Swaye’s OP, I don’t know the answer other than to say we as a country didn’t rectify wrongs of the past soon enough. And Race Bannon is right that a lot of that is on the Democratic Party of 1865 to 1965, and it can certainly be argued that Great Society Programs starting in the 1960’s haven’t yielded the hoped for results. What is clear it that a different approach is needed and I don’t think it’s just throwing money around- e.g., reparations.
@dnc wrote: "Just yesterday another honkey frren posted on FB "Racism was almost dead in this country until Obama resurrected it".
People actually believe this shit."
Obama didn't resurrect racism. But I had black, women & other minority clients and associates saying things like "Wait until 'our guy' gets in there, shit's gonna change, big time." True story. So a lot of people projected their hopes and dreams onto Obama, and expected him to be their sugar-daddy or their President that would finally do for them what they imagined prior Presidents had done for white society. Those folks very much felt that when Obama got elected, the entire tables had turned, their points of view were now mainstream, and for the first time ever, they would have things their way, for a change.
I voted for him twice and his initial victory was orgasmic. The country felt very unified. Then, just like with Clinton and other Presidents, reality set in and Obama started backing off on the Medicare Public Option, told black kids to "pull their pants up" and started talking like Reagan, which shocked a lot of people. What they failed to grasp was that a President has to govern from the middle, so the sugar-daddy role lead to things like changes in the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division to help blacks and minorities, and other indirect, structural changes versus direct benefits or money in people's pockets. Yet, many people, particularly minorities still maintained a delirious hope that Obama was going to fix every problem they had and make everything right in their lives. And when he failed to deliver on things, they just blamed Republicans, accused all of Obama's detractors of racism and created a lot of blow-back in the country.
I believe Obama had more Socialist tendencies, believed in the power of Government to do more in peoples lives, and assumed too much guilt for the U.S. and Western society than he should have, such as in that awful Cairo speech or his "remember the Crusades" bullshit. He was way off base on that shit, but maybe he was desperate to have something big on his legacy and resume than fucking up in Libya and Syria.
I still like Obama, but IMO the "problem" with Obama reflected in that quote from dnc's friend doesn't come from Obama himself, but from the expectations, hopes and dreams people projected onto him and saw in him, which were never really there.
Edit: I also think that we saw a ramping up of rhetoric and racial animosity toward the end of Obama's tenure as people began to realize it would be a long time before we elected another minority president, so people really needed to be heard and push for change before Obama left office. A little like Black Friday - no pun intended - at Walmart.
On the opposite side were Obama's critics and opponents who saw a lame duck, socialist-leaning President whose legacy they could neuter by being obstructionist, and they pulled out all the stops to do just that. But, the opposition party does that to every President, so it's not much of an excuse.
You're making it way too simple. If the day slavery ended all racist laws had ended it might be a fair question.
You're saying how many generations to move on from a terrible thing but which terrible thing? Like when should they get over last weekends march? Knowing that there are people in this country that hate you because of the color of your skin and they are willing to make a public show of how they want their country back?
I don't think it would bother me personally but if I was black and had a kid, I'd be pretty freaked out right now. You have to worry about white supremacists, the police and other black people (CHICAGO I KNOW).
Racism can and does exist without slavery but in our country with our history it's all tied together. These are the echos of slavery. For christs sake the whole weekend was about celebrating Robert E Fucking Lee. How about this, how about fucking white people in the south get over the fucking Civil War and then we can talk to black people about slavery?
This is why we want you back
One of the under reported long term effects of slavery was the dehumanization required to sell it to white people. We definitely still feel that today. Since most whites didn't own slaves but had to go along with it Blacks had to be made less than human. Say one third.
That pernicious racism did last long after slavery as an excuse for those coloreds to pump the brakes on all the freedom shit. Weren't ready for it, can't handle it, didn't spend enough time in the film room etc.
You can make your way as an individual while keeping a group identity. As much as we like good natured ribbing of the Jews, they found success in the face of centuries of pogroms and will NEVER forget Hitler but they by and large are successful.
People forget that without slaves only counting as 3/5 of a person constitutionally we? might never have had the electoral votes to put abolitionist from the party of Lincoln in office.
Of course if they hadn't counted at all maybe we could have done it sooner.
Definitely one of the more chinteresting aspects of that season of history.
@dnc wrote: "Just yesterday another honkey frren posted on FB "Racism was almost dead in this country until Obama resurrected it".
People actually believe this shit."
Obama didn't resurrect racism. But I had black, women & other minority clients and associates saying things like "Wait until 'our guy' gets in there, shit's gonna change, big time." True story. So a lot of people projected their hopes and dreams onto Obama, and expected him to be their sugar-daddy or their President that would finally do for them what they imagined prior Presidents had done for white society. Those folks very much felt that when Obama got elected, the entire tables had turned, their points of view were now mainstream, and for the first time ever, they would have things their way, for a change.
I voted for him twice and his initial victory was orgasmic. The country felt very unified. Then, just like with Clinton and other Presidents, reality set in and Obama started backing off on the Medicare Public Option, told black kids to "pull their pants up" and started talking like Reagan, which shocked a lot of people. What they failed to grasp was that a President has to govern from the middle, so the sugar-daddy role lead to things like changes in the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division to help blacks and minorities, and other indirect, structural changes versus direct benefits or money in people's pockets. Yet, many people, particularly minorities still maintained a delirious hope that Obama was going to fix every problem they had and make everything right in their lives. And when he failed to deliver on things, they just blamed Republicans, accused all of Obama's detractors of racism and created a lot of blow-back in the country.
I believe Obama had more Socialist tendencies, believed in the power of Government to do more in peoples lives, and assumed too much guilt for the U.S. and Western society than he should have, such as in that awful Cairo speech or his "remember the Crusades" bullshit. He was way off base on that shit, but maybe he was desperate to have something big on his legacy and resume than fucking up in Libya and Syria.
I still like Obama, but IMO the "problem" with Obama reflected in that quote from dnc's friend doesn't come from Obama himself, but from the expectations, hopes and dreams people projected onto him and saw in him, which were never really there.
The problem is there are idiots that actually thought racism was almost dead before Obama came around.
Comments
Chew on that Boobs!
On the other hand, it's fucked up to try to recreate the failed legacies of 150 years ago.
For instance a smart person will tell their kids that this is America and you make it on your work ethic.
A dumb person tells their kids they struggle to make it because they are paying for all of those worthless naggers to lay around all day and the Messicans are taking all the jobs.
People are taught both hate and acceptance. The more smart people there are the quicker the population moves on from bad things and vice versa.
There are a metric fuckton of dumb people in this country and they fuck like rabbits. So, to answer your question this race thing will end once everyone is brown in 200 years.
Some, in every race and background, have chosen to be mired victimhood and seek no escape.
fortunately for us, the data doesn't actually bear that out.
What the data shows is that intelligence (as reflected in IQ scores) has increased dramatically over the past 75 years, but that gains on an generation-over-generation basis have slowed down, but are still occurring. A person scoring 100 (average intelligence) on an IQ test in 1932 would score 80 (deficient intelligence) today. But underdeveloped countries are closing the gap with developed countries, and relationships have been linked to increases in nutrition and education.
In my view, the time to start rectifying the wrongs of history done to black Americans was in 1865, but this never really happened (politically it was probably impossible given the attitudes at the time). Slavery ended but was followed by another 100 years of 2nd class citizenship. On this subject: I think Daniel Patrick Monynihan’s controversial paper from 1965 “The Negro Family: The Case For National Action” is still relevant to this day, some 50 plus years after it was released. Here’s a link if you haven’t read it before and it’s annotated for this of you that struggle with TL;DR: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/the-moynihan-report-an-annotated-edition/404632/#Chapter III .
Consider that by the time that we? as a country started trying to undo the injustices of the previous 300 years or so with the Civil Rights Legislation of the mid 1960’s the breakdown of family structure in black America had already reached a critical juncture. The out of wedlock birth rate in 1965 amongst African Americans in 1965 was 26% (for Whites it was 3% in that year); today the number is 73% and for non-Hispanic Whites it’s grown to 29%. Keep in mind that there isn’t an example in human history of a culture suffering this level of breakdown in family structures and still having good results.
As it relates to Swaye’s OP, I don’t know the answer other than to say we as a country didn’t rectify wrongs of the past soon enough. And Race Bannon is right that a lot of that is on the Democratic Party of 1865 to 1965, and it can certainly be argued that Great Society Programs starting in the 1960’s haven’t yielded the hoped for results. What is clear it that a different approach is needed and I don’t think it’s just throwing money around- e.g., reparations.
I *get* the idea that none of *us* owned slaves and we're tired of hearing about it, but there are still a lot of cracka ass crackas in this country working to keep the negro down, and way too many white people acting like that isn't the case. Just yesterday another honkey frren posted on FB "Racism was almost dead in this country until Obama resurrected it".
People actually believe this shit.
I try not to get too biblical in here because I want to respect Little Jimmy's safe space, but Numbers 14:18 among other places says that the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the sons to the third and fourth generation. I don't think that's just some spiritual curse mumbo jumbo, I think there's a practical truth that the mistakes of one generation are going to echo into future generations.
Until crackas like me and the rest of us (not you Swaye or RoadDawg) are willing to face the hard truth that we've benefited from the oppression of blacks and other minorities even if we didn't directly choose or cause it ourselves, this shit is going to keep on reverberating to future generations. And yes, rednecks clinging to their Rebel flags (hi J!) and confederate monuments aren't helping us move past the sins of the 20th century, let alone the 19th.
Make SENSE? NON sense!
People actually believe this shit."
Obama didn't resurrect racism. But I had black, women & other minority clients and associates saying things like "Wait until 'our guy' gets in there, shit's gonna change, big time." True story. So a lot of people projected their hopes and dreams onto Obama, and expected him to be their sugar-daddy or their President that would finally do for them what they imagined prior Presidents had done for white society. Those folks very much felt that when Obama got elected, the entire tables had turned, their points of view were now mainstream, and for the first time ever, they would have things their way, for a change.
I voted for him twice and his initial victory was orgasmic. The country felt very unified. Then, just like with Clinton and other Presidents, reality set in and Obama started backing off on the Medicare Public Option, told black kids to "pull their pants up" and started talking like Reagan, which shocked a lot of people. What they failed to grasp was that a President has to govern from the middle, so the sugar-daddy role lead to things like changes in the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division to help blacks and minorities, and other indirect, structural changes versus direct benefits or money in people's pockets. Yet, many people, particularly minorities still maintained a delirious hope that Obama was going to fix every problem they had and make everything right in their lives. And when he failed to deliver on things, they just blamed Republicans, accused all of Obama's detractors of racism and created a lot of blow-back in the country.
I believe Obama had more Socialist tendencies, believed in the power of Government to do more in peoples lives, and assumed too much guilt for the U.S. and Western society than he should have, such as in that awful Cairo speech or his "remember the Crusades" bullshit. He was way off base on that shit, but maybe he was desperate to have something big on his legacy and resume than fucking up in Libya and Syria.
I still like Obama, but IMO the "problem" with Obama reflected in that quote from dnc's friend doesn't come from Obama himself, but from the expectations, hopes and dreams people projected onto him and saw in him, which were never really there.
Edit: I also think that we saw a ramping up of rhetoric and racial animosity toward the end of Obama's tenure as people began to realize it would be a long time before we elected another minority president, so people really needed to be heard and push for change before Obama left office. A little like Black Friday - no pun intended - at Walmart.
On the opposite side were Obama's critics and opponents who saw a lame duck, socialist-leaning President whose legacy they could neuter by being obstructionist, and they pulled out all the stops to do just that. But, the opposition party does that to every President, so it's not much of an excuse.
Of course if they hadn't counted at all maybe we could have done it sooner.
Definitely one of the more chinteresting aspects of that season of history.