PM to the Troomps

YellowSnow

No Cubans for you...

YellowSnow

My bad. Not fake Fox News was my source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/16/cuba-deal-rollback-trump-says-s-nixing-obama-s-one-sided-pact.html

RaceBannon

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

YellowSnow

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

RaceBannon

But we know why their standard of living sucks and giving money to the reason why isn't going to help the people.

It isn't black and white but let's see how a mix of carrots and sticks works

HoustonHusky

More to it in the background...with the socialist Mecca of Venezuela collapsing one of Cuba's main sources of hydrocarbons is gone, and the Russians have told them they will cut them off if they can't pony up the $$$.

YellowSnow

Mmmmm......Big Stick

doogie

What if Cuba was an experiment by elites of humanity and society under an oppressive regime after sudden yet sustained economic collapse?

section8

So back to ordering cigars and rum from Canada

PurpleThrobber

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Pretty sure Meyer Lansky is dead.

BearsWiin

YellowSnow said:

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

Why?

YellowSnow

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

Why?

Seeking Soviet aid post Bay of Pigs was a logical move to preserve their regime. But how did Castro think we were going to respond? Did he envision that US intelligence wouldn't figure out what was going on and that we would just let them finish up the deployment of the missiles? Yes, after the fact Cuba got the guarantee of no US invasion (and Soviets got the our? missiles out of Turkey) so the gamble worked in hindsight, but it was hardly a forgone conclusion that the crisis could be resolved without WWIII. It was that recklessness that to me was "unforgiveable". Why couldn't a bunch of conventional Soviet military aid been enough to deter a US invasion?

BearsWiin

YellowSnow said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

Why?

Seeking Soviet aid post Bay of Pigs was a logical move to preserve their regime. But how did Castro think we were going to respond? Did he envision that US intelligence wouldn't figure out what was going on and that we would just let them finish up the deployment of the missiles? Yes, after the fact Cuba got the guarantee of no US invasion (and Soviets got the our? missiles out of Turkey) so the gamble worked in hindsight, but it was hardly a forgone conclusion that the crisis could be resolved without WWIII. It was that recklessness that to me was "unforgiveable". Why couldn't a bunch of conventional Soviet military aid been enough to deter a US invasion?

Maybe for similar reasons that we ringed the USSR with nuclear bombers and Titan missiles to deter a Soviet invasion?

GrundleStiltzkin

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

Why?

Seeking Soviet aid post Bay of Pigs was a logical move to preserve their regime. But how did Castro think we were going to respond? Did he envision that US intelligence wouldn't figure out what was going on and that we would just let them finish up the deployment of the missiles? Yes, after the fact Cuba got the guarantee of no US invasion (and Soviets got the our? missiles out of Turkey) so the gamble worked in hindsight, but it was hardly a forgone conclusion that the crisis could be resolved without WWIII. It was that recklessness that to me was "unforgiveable". Why couldn't a bunch of conventional Soviet military aid been enough to deter a US invasion?

Maybe for similar reasons that we ringed the USSR with nuclear bombers and Titan missiles to deter a Soviet invasion?

Winners win.

BearsWiin

GrundleStiltzkin said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

Why?

Seeking Soviet aid post Bay of Pigs was a logical move to preserve their regime. But how did Castro think we were going to respond? Did he envision that US intelligence wouldn't figure out what was going on and that we would just let them finish up the deployment of the missiles? Yes, after the fact Cuba got the guarantee of no US invasion (and Soviets got the our? missiles out of Turkey) so the gamble worked in hindsight, but it was hardly a forgone conclusion that the crisis could be resolved without WWIII. It was that recklessness that to me was "unforgiveable". Why couldn't a bunch of conventional Soviet military aid been enough to deter a US invasion?

Maybe for similar reasons that we ringed the USSR with nuclear bombers and Titan missiles to deter a Soviet invasion?

Wiinners wiin.

YellowSnow

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

Why?

Seeking Soviet aid post Bay of Pigs was a logical move to preserve their regime. But how did Castro think we were going to respond? Did he envision that US intelligence wouldn't figure out what was going on and that we would just let them finish up the deployment of the missiles? Yes, after the fact Cuba got the guarantee of no US invasion (and Soviets got the our? missiles out of Turkey) so the gamble worked in hindsight, but it was hardly a forgone conclusion that the crisis could be resolved without WWIII. It was that recklessness that to me was "unforgiveable". Why couldn't a bunch of conventional Soviet military aid been enough to deter a US invasion?

Maybe for similar reasons that we ringed the USSR with nuclear bombers and Titan missiles to deter a Soviet invasion?

And yet, no other strategic move during the Cold War took us quite the brink like that one. Quick disclaimer: I still need to read up on the 1980's and stuff like Perhsing II's in Germany (that book's on my list). Cold war arms race was a chicken/egg thing in my view. Do you think without our building up our post 1949 nuclear deterrence we would have kept the Soviets out of Western Europe? Would the USSR still have tried to build the H Bomb if we had held off and taken the advice a Cal physics prof?

BearsWiin

YellowSnow said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

Why?

Seeking Soviet aid post Bay of Pigs was a logical move to preserve their regime. But how did Castro think we were going to respond? Did he envision that US intelligence wouldn't figure out what was going on and that we would just let them finish up the deployment of the missiles? Yes, after the fact Cuba got the guarantee of no US invasion (and Soviets got the our? missiles out of Turkey) so the gamble worked in hindsight, but it was hardly a forgone conclusion that the crisis could be resolved without WWIII. It was that recklessness that to me was "unforgiveable". Why couldn't a bunch of conventional Soviet military aid been enough to deter a US invasion?

Maybe for similar reasons that we ringed the USSR with nuclear bombers and Titan missiles to deter a Soviet invasion?

And yet, no other strategic move during the Cold War took us quite the brink like that one. Quick disclaimer: I still need to read up on the 1980's and stuff like Perhsing II's in Germany (that book's on my list). Cold war arms race was a chicken/egg thing in my view. Do you think without our building up our post 1949 nuclear deterrence we would have kept the Soviets out of Western Europe? Would the USSR still have tried to build the H Bomb if we had held off and taken the advice a Cal physics prof?

Hint: Kennedy didn't have to respond the way he did. Love how he's lauded for ExComm and collegial model of decisionmaking, but then he tells them not to discuss a diplomatic response, so his initial response ends up needlessly backing Krushchev into a corner. Then, later, he completely end-runs them and makes a deal through Bobby/Dobrynin that ends with a poorly-worded agreement that State hated for not being able to vet at the time, and which led us eight years later to Cienfuegos (which shows the value of making a diplomatic response (yeay Nixon), even though by then the Sovs had achieved nominal parity). But yeah, it's all the Sovs' fault for wanting to redress the strategic imbalance by using allies. Sad!

TierbsHsotBoobs

YellowSnow said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

Why?

Seeking Soviet aid post Bay of Pigs was a logical move to preserve their regime. But how did Castro think we were going to respond? Did he envision that US chintelligence wouldn't figure out what was going on and that we would just let them finish up the deployment of the missiles? Yes, after the fact Cuba got the guarantee of no US chinvasion (and Soviets got the our? missiles out of Turkey) so the gamble worked in hindsight, but it was hardly a forgone conclusion that the crisis could be resolved without WWIII. It was that recklessness that to me was "unforgiveable". Why couldn't a bunch of conventional Soviet military aid been enough to deter a US chinvasion?

Be better

YellowSnow

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

BearsWiin said:

YellowSnow said:

RaceBannon said:

I don't have much of an issue with keeping the pressure on until the last of the thugs are out of there

Always have had mixed feelings on the subject. Bay of Pigs or not, Castro letting Khrushchev bring in nukes was an unforgivable offense. That crazy former Giants prospect almost got us? (who were alive at the time) killed. But at the same time, the embargo never really worked and made an convenient excuse for why their standard of living sucked. Furthermore, in spite of there being a large number of Vietnamese and Chinese Americans living on the left coast, an embargo of China or Vietnam in perpetuity wouldn't get one more EC votes.

Why?

Seeking Soviet aid post Bay of Pigs was a logical move to preserve their regime. But how did Castro think we were going to respond? Did he envision that US intelligence wouldn't figure out what was going on and that we would just let them finish up the deployment of the missiles? Yes, after the fact Cuba got the guarantee of no US invasion (and Soviets got the our? missiles out of Turkey) so the gamble worked in hindsight, but it was hardly a forgone conclusion that the crisis could be resolved without WWIII. It was that recklessness that to me was "unforgiveable". Why couldn't a bunch of conventional Soviet military aid been enough to deter a US invasion?

Maybe for similar reasons that we ringed the USSR with nuclear bombers and Titan missiles to deter a Soviet invasion?

And yet, no other strategic move during the Cold War took us quite the brink like that one. Quick disclaimer: I still need to read up on the 1980's and stuff like Perhsing II's in Germany (that book's on my list). Cold war arms race was a chicken/egg thing in my view. Do you think without our building up our post 1949 nuclear deterrence we would have kept the Soviets out of Western Europe? Would the USSR still have tried to build the H Bomb if we had held off and taken the advice a Cal physics prof?

Hint: Kennedy didn't have to respond the way he did. Love how he's lauded for ExComm and collegial model of decisionmaking, but then he tells them not to discuss a diplomatic response, so his initial response ends up needlessly backing Krushchev into a corner. Then, later, he completely end-runs them and makes a deal through Bobby/Dobrynin that ends with a poorly-worded agreement that State hated for not being able to vet at the time, and which led us eight years later to Cienfuegos (which shows the value of making a diplomatic response (yeay Nixon), even though by then the Sovs had achieved nominal parity). But yeah, it's all the Sovs' fault for wanting to redress the strategic imbalance by using allies. Sad!

I'm skeptical of the idea that Kennedy's first option should have to been to reach out to Khrushchev to pursue a diplomatic before announcing the blockade. I don't see how this would have caused the Soviets to change course in time. But I'm open to changing my position based on further evidence. I don't know Cienfuegos as well, but seems like there was more time for diplomacy on that one. I am somewhat of a closet Nixon sympathizer so yay.

So why did the Sov's get to piss and moan about strategic imbalance in nukes, whilst maintain massive conventional superiority in Europe?

RaceBannon

Think of Castro like Race only much younger

YellowSnow

RaceBannon said:

Think of Castro like Race only much younger

Was he known for a fresh bowl with the cigar or tobacco only?