Tesla: 4 month's to live
Comments
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Why am I not surprised you aren't educated on this? Over the last few years, how much do you think oil companies have received in subsidies? It's better because they are viable in your opinion? Between NASA and the military, how much innovation in our country has been from government?doogie said:Rich people want to spend their own capital, go for it.
Pretending you're economically viable by including $4 billion in government subsidy, without government benefit? Not so much
https://electrek.co/2016/11/25/tesla-subsidies-big-three-oil-industry/ -
I like to link to a electric industry magazine that says "subsidies the big three and oil industry", which links to data that the big three automakers get in subsidies and an IMF report that is pretty wacky (i.e. includes the "subsidies" of not charging for global warming, etc). and then claim its "oil company" "subsidies"2001400ex said:
Why am I not surprised you aren't educated on this? Over the last few years, how much do you think oil companies have received in subsidies? It's better because they are viable in your opinion? Between NASA and the military, how much innovation in our country has been from government?doogie said:Rich people want to spend their own capital, go for it.
Pretending you're economically viable by including $4 billion in government subsidy, without government benefit? Not so much
https://electrek.co/2016/11/25/tesla-subsidies-big-three-oil-industry/
Speed limit IQ...
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Are you saying oil companies receive less in subsidies? Use your brain, there's so much information right at your fingertips.HoustonHusky said:
I like to link to a electric industry magazine that says "subsidies the big three and oil industry", which links to data that the big three automakers get in subsidies and an IMF report that is pretty wacky (i.e. includes the "subsidies" of not charging for global warming, etc). and then claim its "oil company" "subsidies"2001400ex said:
Why am I not surprised you aren't educated on this? Over the last few years, how much do you think oil companies have received in subsidies? It's better because they are viable in your opinion? Between NASA and the military, how much innovation in our country has been from government?doogie said:Rich people want to spend their own capital, go for it.
Pretending you're economically viable by including $4 billion in government subsidy, without government benefit? Not so much
https://electrek.co/2016/11/25/tesla-subsidies-big-three-oil-industry/
Speed limit IQ... -
Consider it to be as much about R&D as it is profitability. You could consider it the government essentially contracting out the most viable candiate for alternative energy R&D, its really no different than a defense contract. Do you care if Lockheed Martin makes economic sense?HoustonHusky said:
Its not that I want them to fail badly...I just understand thermodynamics. I don't want to fund something that makes no economic senseWilburHooksHands said:Why the fuck do some people want alternative fuels to fail so badly? I don't get it.
For the high-end market nobody cares about the economics of gas vs. electricity, but for an average car it makes no sense.
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But doesn't that play into the notion that their market may be limited, especially once the government gets smart and starts creating more taxes on electric usage?UWhuskytskeet said:
Northwest is way cheaper.greenblood said:Is the cost of charging an electric vehicle more expensive than paying for gas on the east coast? If so, that's what I see as a problem for them going forward.
The midwest I believe has the cheapest electric costs, but being geographically spread out, it's not really an ideal market for Tesla as well. -
I think we'll see taxes shifted toward registrations once gas becomes more phased out.greenblood said:
But doesn't that play into the notion that their market may be limited, especially once the government gets smart and starts creating more taxes on electric usage?UWhuskytskeet said:
Northwest is way cheaper.greenblood said:Is the cost of charging an electric vehicle more expensive than paying for gas on the east coast? If so, that's what I see as a problem for them going forward.
The midwest I believe has the cheapest electric costs, but being geographically spread out, it's not really an ideal market for Tesla as well.
But let's say gas tax is applied to electricity rates. We'll use Washington which is in the top 3 for gas tax, currently at $0.56/gallon. Using $3.50 as the average price, you can say 16% of the cost of gas is tax.
Apply a 16% tax to electricity rates, $0.08/kwh for WA, and the price raises to $0.093.
Basically it doesn't really change the equation much at all. Electric vehicles will still be cheaper to fuel. Even the least efficient EV will still be cheaper per mile than a 45mpg hybrid. This is ignoring the decrease in maintenance (though you'll have to replace the battery some day so it could be a wash). -
That's good to know...UWhuskytskeet said:
I think we'll see taxes shifted toward registrations once gas becomes more phased out.greenblood said:
But doesn't that play into the notion that their market may be limited, especially once the government gets smart and starts creating more taxes on electric usage?UWhuskytskeet said:
Northwest is way cheaper.greenblood said:Is the cost of charging an electric vehicle more expensive than paying for gas on the east coast? If so, that's what I see as a problem for them going forward.
The midwest I believe has the cheapest electric costs, but being geographically spread out, it's not really an ideal market for Tesla as well.
But let's say gas tax is applied to electricity rates. We'll use Washington which is in the top 3 for gas tax, currently at $0.56/gallon. Using $3.50 as the average price, you can say 16% of the cost of gas is tax.
Apply a 16% tax to electricity rates, $0.08/kwh for WA, and the price raises to $0.093.
Basically it doesn't really change the equation much at all. Electric vehicles will still be cheaper to fuel. Even the least efficient EV will still be cheaper per mile than a 45mpg hybrid. This is ignoring the decrease in maintenance (though you'll have to replace the battery some day so it could be a wash).
The battery kind of freaks me out though, because I've heard a battery replacement could be in the thousands. -
Meant to use $2.50 as the average, which would equate to 22.4% tax, or $0.09792/kwh. Point still stands.UWhuskytskeet said:But let's say gas tax is applied to electricity rates. We'll use Washington which is in the top 3 for gas tax, currently at $0.56/gallon. Using $3.50 as the average price, you can say 16% of the cost of gas is tax.
Apply a 16% tax to electricity rates, $0.08/kwh for WA, and the price raises to $0.093.
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Tesla has an 8 year infinite mile warranty on the battery. Toyota is similar.greenblood said:
That's good to know...UWhuskytskeet said:
I think we'll see taxes shifted toward registrations once gas becomes more phased out.greenblood said:
But doesn't that play into the notion that their market may be limited, especially once the government gets smart and starts creating more taxes on electric usage?UWhuskytskeet said:
Northwest is way cheaper.greenblood said:Is the cost of charging an electric vehicle more expensive than paying for gas on the east coast? If so, that's what I see as a problem for them going forward.
The midwest I believe has the cheapest electric costs, but being geographically spread out, it's not really an ideal market for Tesla as well.
But let's say gas tax is applied to electricity rates. We'll use Washington which is in the top 3 for gas tax, currently at $0.56/gallon. Using $3.50 as the average price, you can say 16% of the cost of gas is tax.
Apply a 16% tax to electricity rates, $0.08/kwh for WA, and the price raises to $0.093.
Basically it doesn't really change the equation much at all. Electric vehicles will still be cheaper to fuel. Even the least efficient EV will still be cheaper per mile than a 45mpg hybrid. This is ignoring the decrease in maintenance (though you'll have to replace the battery some day so it could be a wash).
The battery kind of freaks me out though, because I've heard a battery replacement could be in the thousands. -
Agree, overly simplistic on that point, but not the point of the link. @HoustonHusky posted that he doesn't "want to fund something that makes no economic sense". Taxpayers provided Musk with 4.9B in public funding up to the time of the blog post, and as @HoustonHusky subsequently noted, tax credits for EV further force taxpayers to foot a portion of the bill. From a purely technical point of view, I'm a fan of what Tesla has been doing, but also understand the perspective (and fall on the side) of letting the market decide winners and losers without government intervention.UWhuskytskeet said:
Is that guy seriously taking Tesla's quarterly P&L and dividing it by the number of cars sold in order to claim Tesla loses $4000 a car?Southerndawg said:
AgreeHoustonHusky said:
Its not that I want them to fail badly...I just understand thermodynamics. I don't want to fund something that makes no economic senseWilburHooksHands said:Why the fuck do some people want alternative fuels to fail so badly? I don't get it.
For the high-end market nobody cares about the economics of gas vs. electricity, but for an average car it makes no sense.
http://blog.independent.org/2016/01/28/the-truth-about-tesla-motors/
