Thoughts on Basic Income (serious discussion only, plz)

ThomasFremont

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

Interesting alternative to the current system of entitlements, with added upside for society as a whole.

What do you economic scholars say?

GrundleStiltzkin

Confiscatory.

TierbsHsotBoobs

Unsustainable.

greenblood

That already exists, it's called a tax refund

whatshouldicareabout

That already exists, it's called a job

greenblood

I think the idea of everyone getting something back make sense. But the problem is, the poor only think the should get money from the government. Thus, policies will be put into place to raise taxes as much as the basic income which causes more confusion and middle class Americans getting nothing back.

ThomasFremont

Entitlements as they currently exist are unsustainable. And they're not really helping those who are truly poor (~15%).

For the sake of discussion, isn't trying something new better than doing the same old shit?

greenblood

A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.

ThomasFremont

greenblood said:

A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.

The idea would be to eliminate all the bullshit. Every entitlement gets eliminated (EIC, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Everyone gets a check, no questions asked.

Unlike welfare, you can still work full time and receive the benefit. This allows those living below the poverty level to afford basic needs (food, shelter). Work is not disincentivized.

TierbsHsotBoobs

ThomasFremont said:

greenblood said:

A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.

The idea would be to eliminate all the bullshit. Every entitlement gets eliminated (EIC, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Everyone gets a check, no questions asked.

Unlike welfare, you can still work full time and receive the benefit. This allows those living below the poverty level to afford basic needs (food, shelter). Work is not disincentivized.

So it's partial but equal socialism? Interesting

GrundleStiltzkin

ThomasFremont said:

greenblood said:

A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.

The idea would be to eliminate all the bullshit. Every entitlement gets eliminated (EIC, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Everyone gets a check, no questions asked.

Unlike welfare, you can still work full time and receive the benefit. This allows those living below the poverty level to afford basic needs (food, shelter). Work is not disincentivized.

You sure about that?

TierbsHsotBoobs

When everyone in Alaska got oil checks, people still worked.

GrundleStiltzkin

TierbsHsotBoobs said:

When everyone in Alaska got oil checks, people still worked.

Which was never more than 10% of the federal poverty line. Completely different order of magnitude.

TierbsHsotBoobs

GrundleStiltzkin said:

TierbsHsotBoobs said:

When everyone in Alaska got oil checks, people still worked.

Which was never more than 10% of the federal poverty line. Completely different order of magnitude.

Also a fair poont.

PurpleJ

They should give companies tax incentives for hiring American citizens.

ThomasFremont

GrundleStiltzkin said:

ThomasFremont said:

greenblood said:

A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.

The idea would be to eliminate all the bullshit. Every entitlement gets eliminated (EIC, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Everyone gets a check, no questions asked.

Unlike welfare, you can still work full time and receive the benefit. This allows those living below the poverty level to afford basic needs (food, shelter). Work is not disincentivized.

You sure about that?

In theory, yes. Are you gonna stop working because you get $12k/year guaranteed? I'm not.

The test sample showed that two groups worked less as a result of this: new mothers and students.

Not claiming it is a magic bullet solution, just think it might be a better alternative to the current system.

Poor people create a disproportionate amount of the crime in this country. And their numbers are growing. Automation and technological advances are only going to eliminate low level jobs, not create them. Do we sit around until they riot (more than they already are), or try to fix a broken system?

Unless we want to round up all the dirty gypsies and eliminate them, we gotta try something.

sarktastic

Pensions, SocialSecurity, senior healthcare, senior care, safety of principal of your savings, food, energy, internet, cell phones, transportation.

All are entitlements

RaceBannon

I care about poor people

Fire_Marshall_Bill

The minimum wage used to be significantly higher adjusted for inflation. I was talking to an older woman a few years ago and she said you could actually live on it. Another example: My dad said he worked construction in the 50s (yeah, he's Tailgater old, but usually not as senile, but sometimes a little Puppyesque on the phone when the pills get weird). He said he could pay his bills with one week's pay and save the other week's. Construction usually pays quite a bit more than min wage, especially there, but you get the idea.

The min. wage is much higher in western Europe, Australia, Canaduh etc. (Hi Dabone!). I would go that route before trying any universal basic income route.

OZONE

I didn't take the time to read the entire wiki. I certainly think there should be a social safety net for the less fortunate (blind, quadraplegic, lower half blown off in a war, orphan, etc) -- but I think there should be work camps for those that can work -- but just can't find it for some reason (on drugs, mental issue, laziness, no skills, etc). At the very least -- those that are able bodied -- can work on trail crews, plant trees, sweep streets, dig new floatplane harbors, etc.

I also think that the authorities should sweep the streets of panhandlers -- and give them a choice -- go to a work camp -- join the military -- join some other kind of social program that makes them work (earth corps, etc)-- or go home.

I feel compassion for the homeless -- but I don't think that just giving the money is any fix. Many of them will just blow it on drugs -- or scout.com subscriptions.

In conclusion -- help the less fortunate -- but a minimum salary isn't the way.

AZDuck

Its an interesting idea b/c most of the bureaucracy surrounding social welfare is ensuring that the recipient is eligible for the benefit/services.

I'd be curious to see a jurisdiction try something like this, just to see what pops out