Are you talking about unions such as Boeing has that compete in the private sector or Public Sector Unions that exist to fleece everyone else not in government? That are not one and the same.
This should keep you busy for at least a little while, why don't you start a pole on this Husky Site and ask if people:
1) Support Public Sector Unions more than Private Sector Unions
2) Support Private Sector Unions more than Public Sector Unions
3) Think Public Sector Unions should've never been legal and that Private Sector Unions are fine.
The hostility of middle-class Americans toward organizations that exist primarily to improve their bargaining position and benefits package never ceases to amaze me
This bored is overwhelmingly right/libbertarian - so I think any pole would turn out the same way you think it would.
Unions are unions. The only reason politicians are making hay about public sector unions is that they have been harder to kill than the private sector unions. If a workforce wants to unionize, they should be allowed to unionize. The movement to kill private unions and pensions has been so successful that people are now looking with envy at public sector employment which used to be derided as low-paying and unambitious because public employees still enjoy defined benefits pensions, reasonably-priced health insurance and middle-class wages. They are therefore a target for financial services assholes to consume, just like they have consumed so many private sector pension funds and shoved people into 401Ks which are basically a scam.
AZ Duck's argument is that black folks can't make money in Detroit even though they were union workers at the auto plants and the unions make life good for you. Once whitey left it was all over. It has nothing to do with the reasons that whites left, shitty schools thanks to teacher's unions that protect horrible teachers and schools that don't protect students. Black who did make money left too. A corrupt government with a tax system that steals from producers to pay the corrupt politicians who are derelict in their duty is why there was "white flight". It actuality suburbs exploded all across America post war as people made more money.
AZ Duck's argument is that black folks can't make money in Detroit even though they were union workers at the auto plants and the unions make life good for you. Once whitey left it was all over. It has nothing to do with the reasons that whites left, shitty schools thanks to teacher's unions that protect horrible teachers and schools that don't protect students. Black who did make money left too. A corrupt government with a tax system that steals from producers to pay the corrupt politicians who are derelict in their duty is why there was "white flight". It actuality suburbs exploded all across America post war as people made more money.
But no, it was a court ruling. That's it
Thanks but I can make my own arguments. Leave the straw men over there ----------------------------------------->
Cities are systems. Cities which have hollowed out like Detroit or St. Louis are no longer functioning, for whatever reason.
It's pretty funny how people are railing against the fact that a million people have moved out of Detroit since its peak in the early 1960s. That's a fact.
Was the city mismanaged? Sure.
So was New York. So is Seattle. New York even filed for bankruptcy as well. But nobody would claim that New York isn't very successful now.
White flight happened. For whatever reason. Good, bad or indifferent. Justified or not. It happened.
It didn't happen because of the fucking municipal public employee union.
Exactly. I feel like I'm getting dumber by engaging AzDuck. The Supreme Court ruling he blames for bankrupting Detroi came down in 1974 and when I pointed out he was using population figures from 14 years earlier to further his argument about the 1974 ruling, he still couldn't understand where he erred.
He also doesn't understand that it didn't matter much that Detroit reduced headcount for 9 years because Public Union membership increased at other times (while the city was still losing population) before they declared bankruptcy many years later. It's all about the net jobs.
Lastly Race, I'm looking forward to AzDuck trying to explain this away and blame people who don't have much pigment in their skin (aka whitey) rather than aggressive public unions and city spending in the face of the much discussed declining population.
Did the evil public employee unions cause a million people to move out of Detroit or not?
Sorry, but there isn't a "white flight" button that gets mashed. There were some riots and stuff in the 1960's, people started to leave, then there was a school busing plan that pissed a lot of people off, then there was the Millikan case, which turned a flood to the suburbs into a torrent.
Exactly. I feel like I'm getting dumber by engaging AzDuck. The Supreme Court ruling he blames for bankrupting Detroi came down in 1974 and when I pointed out he was using population figures from 14 years earlier to further his argument about the 1974 ruling, he still couldn't understand where he erred.
He also doesn't understand that it didn't matter much that Detroit reduced headcount for 9 years because Public Union membership increased at other times (while the city was still losing population) before they declared bankruptcy many years later. It's all about the net jobs.
Lastly Race, I'm looking forward to AzDuck trying to explain this away and blame people who don't have much pigment in their skin (aka whitey) rather than aggressive public unions and city spending in the face of the much discussed declining population.
Do you even believe in the sanctity of contracts bro?
One of your first points was the pension obligation of the city. Those remain long after the tax base has dissipated. It isn't the firefighter or police officer's fault that the city collapsed. They deserve the pensions they negotiated for and earned. Whether the pension was properly managed - I'll grant you that, even though it sounds like a rounding error against the GDP of metropolitan Detroit over 20 years.
Detroit collapsed because of white flight. Blame the white flight on whatever cause or boogieman you want. White flight killed Detroit, and Millikan was the Rubicon that, once crossed, meant that the city of Detroit would not recover. And it hasn't.
Whatever malgovernment Detroit has endured since 1974 just hastened the city's demise, it did not cause it.
1,000,000 people moving out did.
EDIT: case in point, I just looked at your chart. $1.4BN for pensions, $6.0BN for sewer and water infrastructure (that was built for a city 3x larger than it currently serves).
It's pretty hard not to get something from the government when they are throwing out trillions of dollars a year to buy votes. That doesn't mean one can't be in favor or reigning in spending and lowering taxes.
I like good roads. I don't have an issue with gas taxes. I like the safety net. I don't have an issue with unemployment or welfare. I do have an issue with it as a way of life from generation to generation. Its destructive
I'm pretty sure the executives at Solyandra were against corporate welfare. Hypocrisy is a human condition but its no excuse to give to government control of every area of our lives.
Race Bannon, folks.
Say what you will but Race is a reasonable sort. A little cranky, but who the fuck isn't after what we've been through for more than a decade as Husky fans?
There are trailer parks in eastern washington too, And with 5000 residents east of the mountains, I could see the percentages leading us to believe that. Freemont lives on the hill, he subscribes to the stranger. Tommy, is this author slated a bit?
Did the evil public employee unions cause a million people to move out of Detroit or not?
That's about the dumbest straw-man question I've seen around here in a while. No one single thing 'caused it, so it must not be a factor.
Go dig up the history of Detroit...you'll see a lot more union impact both private and public on its demise than you should be comfortable with. A lot of the moves to the suburbs by the auto makers was due to constant protests and strikes by the unions. Add to that the inane stupidity of the public unions...here is one of many stories on it (the union required the employment of a horseshoer even though they didn't have any horses...really????).
There are trailer parks in eastern washington too, And with 5000 residents east of the mountains, I could see the percentages leading us to believe that. Freemont lives on the hill, he subscribes to the stranger. Tommy, is this author slated a bit?
Nobody "subscribes" to The Stranger. It's free.
So I hoard The Stranger to use as kindling when the end times come.
Some wacko leftist must have reached AzDuck when he was just a little duckie, blaming whitey for one more thing in this world...or he really went to the school at the People's Republic of Berkeley.
Did the evil public employee unions cause a million people to move out of Detroit or not?
That's about the dumbest straw-man question I've seen around here in a while. No one single thing 'caused it, so it must not be a factor.
Go dig up the history of Detroit...you'll see a lot more union impact both private and public on its demise than you should be comfortable with. A lot of the moves to the suburbs by the auto makers was due to constant protests and strikes by the unions. Add to that the inane stupidity of the public unions...here is one of many stories on it (the union required the employment of a horseshoer even though they didn't have any horses...really????).
There are trailer parks in eastern washington too, And with 5000 residents east of the mountains, I could see the percentages leading us to believe that. Freemont lives on the hill, he subscribes to the stranger. Tommy, is this author slated a bit?
Nobody "subscribes" to The Stranger. It's free.
So I hoard The Stranger to use as kindling when the end times come.
There are trailer parks in eastern washington too, And with 5000 residents east of the mountains, I could see the percentages leading us to believe that. Freemont lives on the hill, he subscribes to the stranger. Tommy, is this author slated a bit?
Nobody "subscribes" to The Stranger. It's free.
So I hoard The Stranger to use as kindling when the end times come.
It's pretty hard not to get something from the government when they are throwing out trillions of dollars a year to buy votes. That doesn't mean one can't be in favor or reigning in spending and lowering taxes.
I like good roads. I don't have an issue with gas taxes. I like the safety net. I don't have an issue with unemployment or welfare. I do have an issue with it as a way of life from generation to generation. Its destructive
I'm pretty sure the executives at Solyandra were against corporate welfare. Hypocrisy is a human condition but its no excuse to give to government control of every area of our lives.
Race Bannon, folks.
Say what you will but Race is a reasonable sort. A little cranky, but who the fuck isn't after what we've been through for more than a decade as Husky fans?
Comments
Unions are unions. The only reason politicians are making hay about public sector unions is that they have been harder to kill than the private sector unions. If a workforce wants to unionize, they should be allowed to unionize. The movement to kill private unions and pensions has been so successful that people are now looking with envy at public sector employment which used to be derided as low-paying and unambitious because public employees still enjoy defined benefits pensions, reasonably-priced health insurance and middle-class wages. They are therefore a target for financial services assholes to consume, just like they have consumed so many private sector pension funds and shoved people into 401Ks which are basically a scam.
But no, it was a court ruling. That's it
Cities are systems. Cities which have hollowed out like Detroit or St. Louis are no longer functioning, for whatever reason.
It's pretty funny how people are railing against the fact that a million people have moved out of Detroit since its peak in the early 1960s. That's a fact.
Was the city mismanaged? Sure.
So was New York. So is Seattle. New York even filed for bankruptcy as well. But nobody would claim that New York isn't very successful now.
White flight happened. For whatever reason. Good, bad or indifferent. Justified or not. It happened.
It didn't happen because of the fucking municipal public employee union.
He also doesn't understand that it didn't matter much that Detroit reduced headcount for 9 years because Public Union membership increased at other times (while the city was still losing population) before they declared bankruptcy many years later. It's all about the net jobs.
Lastly Race, I'm looking forward to AzDuck trying to explain this away and blame people who don't have much pigment in their skin (aka whitey) rather than aggressive public unions and city spending in the face of the much discussed declining population.
A public employee union wastes some fraction of $1BN over twenty years - BANKRUPTCY
http://www.michbar.org/journal/pdf/pdf4article1911.pdf
Did the evil public employee unions cause a million people to move out of Detroit or not?
Sorry, but there isn't a "white flight" button that gets mashed. There were some riots and stuff in the 1960's, people started to leave, then there was a school busing plan that pissed a lot of people off, then there was the Millikan case, which turned a flood to the suburbs into a torrent.
Or you know, unions did it. Whatever.
One of your first points was the pension obligation of the city. Those remain long after the tax base has dissipated. It isn't the firefighter or police officer's fault that the city collapsed. They deserve the pensions they negotiated for and earned. Whether the pension was properly managed - I'll grant you that, even though it sounds like a rounding error against the GDP of metropolitan Detroit over 20 years.
Detroit collapsed because of white flight. Blame the white flight on whatever cause or boogieman you want. White flight killed Detroit, and Millikan was the Rubicon that, once crossed, meant that the city of Detroit would not recover. And it hasn't.
Whatever malgovernment Detroit has endured since 1974 just hastened the city's demise, it did not cause it.
1,000,000 people moving out did.
EDIT: case in point, I just looked at your chart. $1.4BN for pensions, $6.0BN for sewer and water infrastructure (that was built for a city 3x larger than it currently serves).
Say what you will but Race is a reasonable sort. A little cranky, but who the fuck isn't after what we've been through for more than a decade as Husky fans?
Go dig up the history of Detroit...you'll see a lot more union impact both private and public on its demise than you should be comfortable with. A lot of the moves to the suburbs by the auto makers was due to constant protests and strikes by the unions. Add to that the inane stupidity of the public unions...here is one of many stories on it (the union required the employment of a horseshoer even though they didn't have any horses...really????).
Keep the faith...I guess?
So I hoard The Stranger to use as kindling when the end times come.
Some wacko leftist must have reached AzDuck when he was just a little duckie, blaming whitey for one more thing in this world...or he really went to the school at the People's Republic of Berkeley.
When the end times come, you'll be the kindling.