If I was betting on a player going forward, I'd bet on LoMo before I'd bet on Saunders - particularly for 2015.
Logan Morrison 2012: 90 wRC+ 2013: 96 wRC+ 2014: 110 wRC+ Below average defense at 1B Saunders 2012: 108 wRC+ 2013: 100 wRC+ 2014 126 wRC+ Above average defense in RF wRC+ is basically a glorified OPS btw. Now before you bring up Saunders' injuries, Morrison has never played a 100 game season since 2011. So it's worse than saunders' There is literally 0 basis for that statement, no matter which way you try to spin it. And if they had played Saunders down the stretch over Denorfia and Hart. They would've at least been tied with Oakland if not ahead
It's really easy to cherry pick stats to the benefit of your argument, especially in baseball where there are way too many.
LoMo played good down the stretch and showed signs of improvement over the course of the season. Saunders isn't a bad player, what people fail to grasp here is Saunders need is less than what Happ currently provides. Mariners are way too think after their starting 5 in the rotation. The plan of bringing in another good bat outfielder is in motion to replace Saunders. Since Saunders is in the doghouse too he would be a 4th option while Happ will be a contributor to the rotation.
Please quit bringing up defensive stats too. The mariners problem for a decade has been abysmal offense. Who gives a shit if Saunders would have made a couple extra catches or thrown a couple extra guys out. The plan is to upgrade the run support of a pretty dominant pitching staff.... Tequilla said it too that this is now a pitchers game and defense is even less of a priority than ever.
No ones going to argue the playing Saunders over Denorfia or Hart argument because it doesn't apply here at all. Of course that would have been better, you would be an idiot to disagree with that.
If I was betting on a player going forward, I'd bet on LoMo before I'd bet on Saunders - particularly for 2015.
Logan Morrison 2012: 90 wRC+ 2013: 96 wRC+ 2014: 110 wRC+ Below average defense at 1B Saunders 2012: 108 wRC+ 2013: 100 wRC+ 2014 126 wRC+ Above average defense in RF wRC+ is basically a glorified OPS btw. Now before you bring up Saunders' injuries, Morrison has never played a 100 game season since 2011. So it's worse than saunders' There is literally 0 basis for that statement, no matter which way you try to spin it. And if they had played Saunders down the stretch over Denorfia and Hart. They would've at least been tied with Oakland if not ahead
It's really easy to cherry pick stats to the benefit of your argument, especially in baseball where there are way too many.
LoMo played good down the stretch and showed signs of improvement over the course of the season. Saunders isn't a bad player, what people fail to grasp here is Saunders need is less than what Happ currently provides. Mariners are way too think after their starting 5 in the rotation. The plan of bringing in another good bat outfielder is in motion to replace Saunders. Since Saunders is in the doghouse too he would be a 4th option while Happ will be a contributor to the rotation.
Please quit bringing up defensive stats too. The mariners problem for a decade has been abysmal offense. Who gives a shit if Saunders would have made a couple extra catches or thrown a couple extra guys out. The plan is to upgrade the run support of a pretty dominant pitching staff.... Tequilla said it too that this is now a pitchers game and defense is even less of a priority than ever.
No ones going to argue the playing Saunders over Denorfia or Hart argument because it doesn't apply here at all. Of course that would have been better, you would be an idiot to disagree with that.
There are years of evidence that show Logan Morrison isn't very good. A sample size of half the season, where he was still a below average hitter for a first baseman, isn't enough. Counting on him everyday probably isn't going to turn out well. @ThomasFremont - To your point, I specifically mentioned getting a couple bottom barrel bargain to provide depth for the staff. I realize those pitchers are young and depth is needed.
For fucks sake, almost every Jack Z trade has sucked. This one will probably be no different.
That's why you can't look at a single deal without seeing the big picture.
The Mariners were 87-75 last year. Missed the playoffs by a single game.
They scored 2 runs or less in 60 games ... they went 8-52 in those games.
In games they scored 3 or more runs in ... they went 79-23.
You don't need a degree in math to realize that their biggest problem last year was their inability to score runs on a consistent basis. 2 runs or less in 60 games is ridiculous. I get that it's still going to happen 30-40 times per year. But get to 2 runs in those games ... 39 of the 60 games they didn't even do that.
Happ wasn't brought in to be a main part of this rotation. He was brought in to build depth in the rotation to be able to withstand an injury, future trade, lack of performance, etc.
Saunders was a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't need him. Happ will be a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't have others that can do a comparable job.
Those that follow the Mariners can be very myopic at times.
If they would have played Saunders down the stretch they would have had that extra win they needed.
hth
Those that don't get that are those that probably have never played sports. .
If I was betting on a player going forward, I'd bet on LoMo before I'd bet on Saunders - particularly for 2015.
Logan Morrison 2012: 90 wRC+ 2013: 96 wRC+ 2014: 110 wRC+ Below average defense at 1B Saunders 2012: 108 wRC+ 2013: 100 wRC+ 2014 126 wRC+ Above average defense in RF wRC+ is basically a glorified OPS btw. Now before you bring up Saunders' injuries, Morrison has never played a 100 game season since 2011. So it's worse than saunders' There is literally 0 basis for that statement, no matter which way you try to spin it. And if they had played Saunders down the stretch over Denorfia and Hart. They would've at least been tied with Oakland if not ahead
It's really easy to cherry pick stats to the benefit of your argument, especially in baseball where there are way too many.
LoMo played good down the stretch and showed signs of improvement over the course of the season. Saunders isn't a bad player, what people fail to grasp here is Saunders need is less than what Happ currently provides. Mariners are way too think after their starting 5 in the rotation. The plan of bringing in another good bat outfielder is in motion to replace Saunders. Since Saunders is in the doghouse too he would be a 4th option while Happ will be a contributor to the rotation.
Please quit bringing up defensive stats too. The mariners problem for a decade has been abysmal offense. Who gives a shit if Saunders would have made a couple extra catches or thrown a couple extra guys out. The plan is to upgrade the run support of a pretty dominant pitching staff.... Tequilla said it too that this is now a pitchers game and defense is even less of a priority than ever.
No ones going to argue the playing Saunders over Denorfia or Hart argument because it doesn't apply here at all. Of course that would have been better, you would be an idiot to disagree with that.
There are years of evidence that show Logan Morrison isn't very good. A sample size of half the season, where he was still a below average hitter for a first baseman, isn't enough. Counting on him everyday probably isn't going to turn out well. @ThomasFremont - To your point, I specifically mentioned getting a couple bottom barrel bargain to provide depth for the staff. I realize those pitchers are young and depth is needed.
For fucks sake, almost every Jack Z trade has sucked. This one will probably be no different.
No doubt that Jack Zs track record is dreck but it doesn't automatically mean that every move he makes is terrible. He went out and got Iwakuma, so while the majority is bad he has pulled out one or two good ones.
LoMo came off an injury riddled season and started off slow and ended well. Much more understandable than starting hot and ending slow. I'm in LIPO with him as he had some clutch hits that won the Mariners some big games down the stretch. His offensive production isn't much worse than Saunders. .261 isn't great but it isn't the dreckfest thing either. Saunders is also slated to be 28 or 29 this year and I think LoMo 25 or 26.
Mariners should still be upgrading one more OF position and Saunders would have fell behind Ackley, Jackson, and whoever they bring in. Cruz also wants to play OF he said as DH is boring so they will be tossing him in some games too.
Denorfia/Hart played against lefties - Saunders I believe hit just over .200 against them last year. I agree in that I would have preferred Saunders to those options - but it was far from clear cut.
Agree that LoMo has had his injury issues in the past. I like what I saw from him last year - particularly after getting healthy and regular playing time.
If I'm making a bet on next year - my bet would be on LoMo.
Finally, the 1B market is far drier than the OF market - so unless Saunders vs LoMo wasn't close, then you stick w LoMo and move Saunders.
I'm one of the biggest Mariner and Jack Z bashers out there, but I haven't had reason to complain about many of his moves lately.
Iwakuma was not acquired in a trade. He's mostly made shitty trades. This one will probably be no different. The Lee and Fister trades alone should have gotten him fired. Pineida for Montero. Mike Morse (when he was good) for Langerhans. When has he ever fleeced another GM? His best trades have been equal at best.
Iwakuma was not acquired in a trade. He's mostly made shitty trades. This one will probably be no different. The Lee and Fister trades alone should have gotten him fired. Pineida for Montero. Mike Morse (when he was good) for Langerhans. When has he ever fleeced another GM? His best trades have been equal at best.
Iwakuma was not acquired in a trade. He's mostly made shitty trades. This one will probably be no different. The Lee and Fister trades alone should have gotten him fired. Pineida for Montero. Mike Morse (when he was good) for Langerhans. When has he ever fleeced another GM? His best trades have been equal at best.
That's why you can't look at a single deal without seeing the big picture.
The Mariners were 87-75 last year. Missed the playoffs by a single game.
They scored 2 runs or less in 60 games ... they went 8-52 in those games.
In games they scored 3 or more runs in ... they went 79-23.
You don't need a degree in math to realize that their biggest problem last year was their inability to score runs on a consistent basis. 2 runs or less in 60 games is ridiculous. I get that it's still going to happen 30-40 times per year. But get to 2 runs in those games ... 39 of the 60 games they didn't even do that.
Happ wasn't brought in to be a main part of this rotation. He was brought in to build depth in the rotation to be able to withstand an injury, future trade, lack of performance, etc.
Saunders was a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't need him. Happ will be a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't have others that can do a comparable job.
Those that follow the Mariners can be very myopic at times.
If they would have played Saunders down the stretch they would have had that extra win they needed.
hth
Those that don't get that are those that probably have never played sports. .
If I was betting on a player going forward, I'd bet on LoMo before I'd bet on Saunders - particularly for 2015.
Logan Morrison 2012: 90 wRC+ 2013: 96 wRC+ 2014: 110 wRC+ Below average defense at 1B Saunders 2012: 108 wRC+ 2013: 100 wRC+ 2014 126 wRC+ Above average defense in RF wRC+ is basically a glorified OPS btw. Now before you bring up Saunders' injuries, Morrison has never played a 100 game season since 2011. So it's worse than saunders' There is literally 0 basis for that statement, no matter which way you try to spin it. And if they had played Saunders down the stretch over Denorfia and Hart. They would've at least been tied with Oakland if not ahead
It's really easy to cherry pick stats to the benefit of your argument, especially in baseball where there are way too many.
LoMo played good down the stretch and showed signs of improvement over the course of the season. Saunders isn't a bad player, what people fail to grasp here is Saunders need is less than what Happ currently provides. Mariners are way too think after their starting 5 in the rotation. The plan of bringing in another good bat outfielder is in motion to replace Saunders. Since Saunders is in the doghouse too he would be a 4th option while Happ will be a contributor to the rotation.
Please quit bringing up defensive stats too. The mariners problem for a decade has been abysmal offense. Who gives a shit if Saunders would have made a couple extra catches or thrown a couple extra guys out. The plan is to upgrade the run support of a pretty dominant pitching staff.... Tequilla said it too that this is now a pitchers game and defense is even less of a priority than ever.
No ones going to argue the playing Saunders over Denorfia or Hart argument because it doesn't apply here at all. Of course that would have been better, you would be an idiot to disagree with that.
wRC+ is a complete offensive evaluation. Taking everything into account. It is not "cherry picking"
That's why you can't look at a single deal without seeing the big picture.
The Mariners were 87-75 last year. Missed the playoffs by a single game.
They scored 2 runs or less in 60 games ... they went 8-52 in those games.
In games they scored 3 or more runs in ... they went 79-23.
You don't need a degree in math to realize that their biggest problem last year was their inability to score runs on a consistent basis. 2 runs or less in 60 games is ridiculous. I get that it's still going to happen 30-40 times per year. But get to 2 runs in those games ... 39 of the 60 games they didn't even do that.
Happ wasn't brought in to be a main part of this rotation. He was brought in to build depth in the rotation to be able to withstand an injury, future trade, lack of performance, etc.
Saunders was a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't need him. Happ will be a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't have others that can do a comparable job.
Those that follow the Mariners can be very myopic at times.
If they would have played Saunders down the stretch they would have had that extra win they needed.
hth
That's fucking BS and comes straight out of the Churchill talking points on Saunders ... they put themselves in a position to be where they needed to be and lost a 3 game series to Oakland and then had a run of games in late September where the pitching fell apart over a series of a 4-5 games. I absolutely laugh at those that say that "all 162 games are equal" blah blah blah stuff. Yes, they count the same in the standings. No, they aren't managed or played in the same manner. Games in September absolutely carry more weight than games in May. Those that don't get that are those that probably have never played sports. You spend your season putting yourself in a position to compete for championships. Your season then is judged on your ability to win when it matters most.
You don't build a team to be "just good enough" to make the playoffs. Doing that sets you up for unexpected downturns and increases your risk of failure.
For those criticizing this deal, the major miss is trying to figure our where would Saunders play on this team next year? There will be another move for an OF. They have Cruz to DH. They probably aren't playing him over Jackson or Ackley. So where does he play?
Moreover, while you need to build the best 25 (and really 30-35) man roster for the regular season, postseason play comes down to your top 17 to 18 players, particularly in the AL. It's your starting 9, your 3-4 starting pitchers, and your top 3-5 relief pitchers. The bench guys MAY get a spot here and there. But the 5th OF or 6th SP probably isn't making a dent in October anyway. At that point, you're better off figuring out how a 5th OF or 6th SP better helps you April-September.
That's exactly the issue. He's better than Ackley, so them deciding Saunders is expendable and Ackley is an everyday player is garbage
That's why you can't look at a single deal without seeing the big picture.
The Mariners were 87-75 last year. Missed the playoffs by a single game.
They scored 2 runs or less in 60 games ... they went 8-52 in those games.
In games they scored 3 or more runs in ... they went 79-23.
You don't need a degree in math to realize that their biggest problem last year was their inability to score runs on a consistent basis. 2 runs or less in 60 games is ridiculous. I get that it's still going to happen 30-40 times per year. But get to 2 runs in those games ... 39 of the 60 games they didn't even do that.
Happ wasn't brought in to be a main part of this rotation. He was brought in to build depth in the rotation to be able to withstand an injury, future trade, lack of performance, etc.
Saunders was a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't need him. Happ will be a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't have others that can do a comparable job.
Those that follow the Mariners can be very myopic at times.
If they would have played Saunders down the stretch they would have had that extra win they needed.
hth
Those that don't get that are those that probably have never played sports. .
Too many Mariner fans don't deserve a good team ... Few of them know what a good team even looks like
I miss the days of the kingdome and 10k per night
I don't miss the days of fucking muppets telling you to sit down during playoff games with 2 strikes in key spots
Sports aren't a fucking computer game and math problem you can solve with a BS algorithm
so the mariners should play less productive players because the game isn't played on a computer? resorting to that is how you know someone has lost the argument. Saunders had an OBP over 350 vs LHP btw
Have you guys actually watched Walker pitch? He has talent but he is so inconsistent right now. They guy fucking walks almost as many batters as he will strike out. Paxton is superior in every way and if you can get Upton or Kemp for Walker you fucking doing it. I like him out of the bullpen but holy Christ is he a lot more sizzle than steak right now.
As far as LoMo goes did you guys actually watch the Mariners last season? LoMO started to bang the ball around after and extremely slow start. He was one of the more clutch hitters down the stretch. It is far from a disaster having him at 1B and if he ends up shitting the bed early then DJ Peterson might get a crack to see what he could do.
Jackson had a bad half season for the Mariners but his overall body of work is decent and if there is a position in the OF you want defense it is CF and Jackson is onenis the best.
The money in Happs deal is so moot because of no salary it means jack shit in the grand scheme of things as it isn't long term and only this year. It won't stop the Mariners from making their next big deal with someone.
Seriously do any of you actually watch the Mariners or even baseball regularly?
yes, I watch most of their games, I like pain. Morrison is fine at 1B, but suggesting you trust him more than saunders for 2015 is not based off of reality
Have you guys actually watched Walker pitch? He has talent but he is so inconsistent right now. They guy fucking walks almost as many batters as he will strike out. Paxton is superior in every way and if you can get Upton or Kemp for Walker you fucking doing it. I like him out of the bullpen but holy Christ is he a lot more sizzle than steak right now.
As far as LoMo goes did you guys actually watch the Mariners last season? LoMO started to bang the ball around after and extremely slow start. He was one of the more clutch hitters down the stretch. It is far from a disaster having him at 1B and if he ends up shitting the bed early then DJ Peterson might get a crack to see what he could do.
Jackson had a bad half season for the Mariners but his overall body of work is decent and if there is a position in the OF you want defense it is CF and Jackson is onenis the best.
The money in Happs deal is so moot because of no salary it means jack shit in the grand scheme of things as it isn't long term and only this year. It won't stop the Mariners from making their next big deal with someone.
Seriously do any of you actually watch the Mariners or even baseball regularly?
yes, I watch most of their games, I like pain. Morrison is fine at 1B, but suggesting you trust him more than saunders for 2015 is not based off of reality
One plays 1B and one plays OF. One was in the doghouse of team management one isnt Not sure why we are even talking about this still.
Saunders was an ok player who would have little need on this team if the Mariners sign an OF with a good bat which looks like will be the case. Depth in the starting rotation for pitching is much more of a concern than a 4th OF.
Ackley was never part of this discussion. I agree Saunders is better but Ackely isn't on the Mariners shit list. Saunders was going to get traded and Ackley wasn't.
Too many Mariner fans don't deserve a good team ... Few of them know what a good team even looks like
I miss the days of the kingdome and 10k per night
I don't miss the days of fucking muppets telling you to sit down during playoff games with 2 strikes in key spots
Sports aren't a fucking computer game and math problem you can solve with a BS algorithm
so the mariners should play less productive players because the game isn't played on a computer? resorting to that is how you know someone has lost the argument. Saunders had an OBP over 350 vs LHP btw
I looked at Saunders stats against LH starters instead of LHP in total ... wasn't trying to be misleading in my comments.
Saunders is terrible and when you have to resort to he "is not as bad as Morrison", then you know he sucks. He put up somewhat respectable numbers with limited ABs last year, but baseball is a game of trends, and most likely he would have fell off to his normal numbers based on 450-500 ABs.
Ackley has put up comparable numbers (in some cases better) in just 4 seasons and has a much higher upside.
And I would hold judgement on this move because there is a decent change Melky Cabrera may take Saunders' spot in the outfield.
Comments
LoMo played good down the stretch and showed signs of improvement over the course of the season. Saunders isn't a bad player, what people fail to grasp here is Saunders need is less than what Happ currently provides. Mariners are way too think after their starting 5 in the rotation. The plan of bringing in another good bat outfielder is in motion to replace Saunders. Since Saunders is in the doghouse too he would be a 4th option while Happ will be a contributor to the rotation.
Please quit bringing up defensive stats too. The mariners problem for a decade has been abysmal offense. Who gives a shit if Saunders would have made a couple extra catches or thrown a couple extra guys out. The plan is to upgrade the run support of a pretty dominant pitching staff.... Tequilla said it too that this is now a pitchers game and defense is even less of a priority than ever.
No ones going to argue the playing Saunders over Denorfia or Hart argument because it doesn't apply here at all. Of course that would have been better, you would be an idiot to disagree with that.
For fucks sake, almost every Jack Z trade has sucked. This one will probably be no different.
Dude, you are an IMA legend in your own mind.
LoMo came off an injury riddled season and started off slow and ended well. Much more understandable than starting hot and ending slow. I'm in LIPO with him as he had some clutch hits that won the Mariners some big games down the stretch. His offensive production isn't much worse than Saunders. .261 isn't great but it isn't the dreckfest thing either. Saunders is also slated to be 28 or 29 this year and I think LoMo 25 or 26.
Mariners should still be upgrading one more OF position and Saunders would have fell behind Ackley, Jackson, and whoever they bring in. Cruz also wants to play OF he said as DH is boring so they will be tossing him in some games too.
Agree that LoMo has had his injury issues in the past. I like what I saw from him last year - particularly after getting healthy and regular playing time.
If I'm making a bet on next year - my bet would be on LoMo.
Finally, the 1B market is far drier than the OF market - so unless Saunders vs LoMo wasn't close, then you stick w LoMo and move Saunders.
I'm one of the biggest Mariner and Jack Z bashers out there, but I haven't had reason to complain about many of his moves lately.
http://seattlesportsnet.com/2013/05/28/an-analysis-of-every-mariners-trade-in-the-jack-zduriencik-era/
Full. Court. Pressing.
Thread over!
I miss the days of the kingdome and 10k per night
I don't miss the days of fucking muppets telling you to sit down during playoff games with 2 strikes in key spots
Sports aren't a fucking computer game and math problem you can solve with a BS algorithm
resorting to that is how you know someone has lost the argument.
Saunders had an OBP over 350 vs LHP btw
Saunders was an ok player who would have little need on this team if the Mariners sign an OF with a good bat which looks like will be the case. Depth in the starting rotation for pitching is much more of a concern than a 4th OF.
Ackley was never part of this discussion. I agree Saunders is better but Ackely isn't on the Mariners shit list. Saunders was going to get traded and Ackley wasn't.
Ackley has put up comparable numbers (in some cases better) in just 4 seasons and has a much higher upside.
And I would hold judgement on this move because there is a decent change Melky Cabrera may take Saunders' spot in the outfield.