Just read a bunch of comments by stupid assholes on FB complaining about how the Seahawks barely won and that they were lucky and they're not a Super Bowl team.
They may not be a Super Bowl team, but they are not going to blow out every single team on their schedule. I hate 12FS more and more.
I'm actually one of those people (not today) but more just in the moment stuff.
I've only seen half the games but unless they get relatively healthy they're winning 10, maybe 11 and they probably won't win three straight in the playoffs, mostly or totally on the road.
What bothers me about the 12FS is that they want to see huge blow-outs. A 6-point win isn't good enough. Sure, the Seahawks aren't playing all that well, but they still have a winning record. They weren't going to repeat last year's success. The injuries have made matters worse.
They forget that some of last year's games were close calls, one of which was against the hapless Houston Texans team. They weren't plungering teams on their way to the playoffs.
Need more Quality Wins to move up in the power rankings and make the playoffs. Because power rankings are important for making the playoffs. Huh?
We Are Twelve!
And if any media member has the gall to rank the Seahawks anything except #1, I'm gonna flood his twitter feed with hate tweets. The Seahawks get no national respect!
I'm just curious when it's ok to question the coaching staff and front office for some of their decisions which have led us to where we are now - I know they won a super bowl and therefore get to pop off, but feel like 12s are now blindly following Carroll/Schneider and any dissent means they aren't fans (unique among fan bases I think)
I'm just curious when it's ok to question the coaching staff and front office for some of their decisions which have led us to where we are now - I know they won a super bowl and therefore get to pop off, but feel like 12s are now blindly following Carroll/Schneider and any dissent means they aren't fans (unique among fan bases I think)
Feel like this is the right place to ask this
They've clearly made some bad moves, starting with the first Harvin trade and including the entire 2013 draft. I don't think there's really any debating any of that.
But it's the same people who made the decisions that brought Seattle it's only pro championship in my lifetime. They've earned the right for us to give them time to correct their mistakes and get their shit together. I'm not as confident as I was in the offseason, but I still think the future is pretty bright.
I'm just curious when it's ok to question the coaching staff and front office for some of their decisions which have led us to where we are now - I know they won a super bowl and therefore get to pop off, but feel like 12s are now blindly following Carroll/Schneider and any dissent means they aren't fans (unique among fan bases I think)
Feel like this is the right place to ask this
Completely fair to question. If they were going to trade harvin letting Tate go was a big mistake. As DNC said the trade that got harvin was bad, and some of their draft picks the last couple seasons are starting to look not so good. OTOH they did inherit a disaster and have won 11 games in back to back years, along with a SB, and I still believe they'll win 10-11 this year when everyone comes back. So I'm not going to begin to question just yet
I'm just curious when it's ok to question the coaching staff and front office for some of their decisions which have led us to where we are now - I know they won a super bowl and therefore get to pop off, but feel like 12s are now blindly following Carroll/Schneider and any dissent means they aren't fans (unique among fan bases I think)
Feel like this is the right place to ask this
They've clearly made some bad moves, starting with the first Harvin trade and including the entire 2013 draft. I don't think there's really any debating any of that.
But it's the same people who made the decisions that brought Seattle it's only pro championship in my lifetime. They've earned the right for us to give them time to correct their mistakes and get their shit together. I'm not as confident as I was in the offseason, but I still think the future is pretty bright.
Yeah I totally agree they deserve the chance to turn things around -- and with all the draft picks next year plus another FA period they are in a position to restock significantly
I just think we can have some healthy discussion about some of the sub-optimal decisions driving this years performance (and maybe beyond?) without having to feel like we have to state that we support PCJS
Maybe it's having been born and raised in WA but lived a good amount of my adult life in NYC and DC that makes me feel this way (listening to sport radio there eviserate Joe Gibbs, Eli Manning/Tom Coughlin, etc... in years after their super bowls), but similar to the Sark era it feels like there is a gap between the "believers"/doogs and the balanced view
I'm just curious when it's ok to question the coaching staff and front office for some of their decisions which have led us to where we are now - I know they won a super bowl and therefore get to pop off, but feel like 12s are now blindly following Carroll/Schneider and any dissent means they aren't fans (unique among fan bases I think)
Feel like this is the right place to ask this
They've clearly made some bad moves, starting with the first Harvin trade and including the entire 2013 draft. I don't think there's really any debating any of that.
But it's the same people who made the decisions that brought Seattle it's only pro championship in my lifetime. They've earned the right for us to give them time to correct their mistakes and get their shit together. I'm not as confident as I was in the offseason, but I still think the future is pretty bright.
Yeah I totally agree they deserve the chance to turn things around -- and with all the draft picks next year plus another FA period they are in a position to restock significantly
I just think we can have some healthy discussion about some of the sub-optimal decisions driving this years performance (and maybe beyond?) without having to feel like we have to state that we support PCJS
Maybe it's having been born and raised in WA but lived a good amount of my adult life in NYC and DC that makes me feel this way (listening to sport radio there eviserate Joe Gibbs, Eli Manning/Tom Coughlin, etc... in years after their super bowls), but similar to the Sark era it feels like there is a gap between the "believers"/doogs and the balanced view
Can't really speak to the Gibbs situations, but I do think this is a lot different than the Eli/Coughlin championships because neither of those teams were anything near the best team in the league when they won, they just happened to get hot at the right time. The Hawks braintrust legitimately put together the best team in the NFL last year and followed through on it and won the title. If they were a six seed that backed into the final wild card and got hot in the playoffs I'd be a lot quicker to question things. As it is, best team + ring = they get more tim as far as I'm concerned.
What suboptimal decisions are you referring to specifically? My biggest complaints are as follows:
1) The first Harvin trade. Way too much to give up for him in the salary cap era even if he wasn't a fragile headcase. I liked swinging for the fences at the time, but in retrospect it was the kind of move Bellichek never makes. He never mortgages the future to make one run. As it turns out, the Hooks didn't need him to make that run anyway.
2) Letting Tate go if there was any chance they were going to have to move on from Harvin. Pretty self explanatory, as not only has Tate blown up with the Lions but they have desperately missed him in the return game. Brian fucking Walters.
3) The 2013 draft. Everyone said it was a redshirt class, but it's looking more like a suddenly senior class. Maybe Simon provides some value, but Williams was a decent gamble that isn't likely to pay off, Willson's worse than Helfet, Harper's already been cut, Hill's not special at all, and Michael can't even beat out Turbin, enough said on that.
4) Drafting Paul Richardson. I liked trading down as it's almost always the best strategy, but when you look at the receivers on the bored there that the Hooks passed on that could have given Wilson the big athletic receiver he really needs I just shake my head. Passed on Allen Robinson, Donte Moncrief, Cody Latimer and Martavis Bryant. Devonte Adams looks like a better pick too, and as far as pure burners go John Brown looks better than Richardson as well.
I don't hate Richardson, but I'd like him a lot better as a fourth or fifth rounder than a second rounder. I think they are really going to regret not getting Moncrief or Bryant.
5) Letting Chris Clemmons leave. Clemmons was the most overlooked star of the Super Bowel. He finally looked healed up and spent the whole game in Peyton's grill. I know he's old, but they really needed to find a way to keep him.
Plenty of the Seahawks problems are injury related - losing Lane and Maxwell and now Cam has really taken a bite out of the secondary (they miss Lane on punt coverage as well). The already mediocre line is decimated, Unger is particularly glaring by his absence. Miller looks much more valuable than I gave him credit for. Wagner being out leaves a massive hole in the middle of the defense.
Pete has his share of responsibility as well. His willingness to let Bevell destroy the offense for the sake of Harvin was terrible, and his clock management continues to leave plenty to be desired.
That said, I still think I'd take Schneider and Carroll over any non Bellicheck coach/gm combo in the league. They're not perfect, but they're really good. Feels to me like this team might have a bigtime run in it down the stretch once everybody gets back and they get pissed that the world thinks Arizona is better than they are.
I'm just curious when it's ok to question the coaching staff and front office for some of their decisions which have led us to where we are now - I know they won a super bowl and therefore get to pop off, but feel like 12s are now blindly following Carroll/Schneider and any dissent means they aren't fans (unique among fan bases I think)
Feel like this is the right place to ask this
They've clearly made some bad moves, starting with the first Harvin trade and including the entire 2013 draft. I don't think there's really any debating any of that.
But it's the same people who made the decisions that brought Seattle it's only pro championship in my lifetime. They've earned the right for us to give them time to correct their mistakes and get their shit together. I'm not as confident as I was in the offseason, but I still think the future is pretty bright.
Yeah I totally agree they deserve the chance to turn things around -- and with all the draft picks next year plus another FA period they are in a position to restock significantly
I just think we can have some healthy discussion about some of the sub-optimal decisions driving this years performance (and maybe beyond?) without having to feel like we have to state that we support PCJS
Maybe it's having been born and raised in WA but lived a good amount of my adult life in NYC and DC that makes me feel this way (listening to sport radio there eviserate Joe Gibbs, Eli Manning/Tom Coughlin, etc... in years after their super bowls), but similar to the Sark era it feels like there is a gap between the "believers"/doogs and the balanced view
Can't really speak to the Gibbs situations, but I do think this is a lot different than the Eli/Coughlin championships because neither of those teams were anything near the best team in the league when they won, they just happened to get hot at the right time. The Hawks braintrust legitimately put together the best team in the NFL last year and followed through on it and won the title. If they were a six seed that backed into the final wild card and got hot in the playoffs I'd be a lot quicker to question things. As it is, best team + ring = they get more tim as far as I'm concerned.
What suboptimal decisions are you referring to specifically? My biggest complaints are as follows:
1) The first Harvin trade. Way too much to give up for him in the salary cap era even if he wasn't a fragile headcase. I liked swinging for the fences at the time, but in retrospect it was the kind of move Bellichek never makes. He never mortgages the future to make one run. As it turns out, the Hooks didn't need him to make that run anyway.
2) Letting Tate go if there was any chance they were going to have to move on from Harvin. Pretty self explanatory, as not only has Tate blown up with the Lions but they have desperately missed him in the return game. Brian fucking Walters.
3) The 2013 draft. Everyone said it was a redshirt class, but it's looking more like a suddenly senior class. Maybe Simon provides some value, but Williams was a decent gamble that isn't likely to pay off, Willson's worse than Helfet, Harper's already been cut, Hill's not special at all, and Michael can't even beat out Turbin, enough said on that.
4) Drafting Paul Richardson. I liked trading down as it's almost always the best strategy, but when you look at the receivers on the bored there that the Hooks passed on that could have given Wilson the big athletic receiver he really needs I just shake my head. Passed on Allen Robinson, Donte Moncrief, Cody Latimer and Martavis Bryant. Devonte Adams looks like a better pick too, and as far as pure burners go John Brown looks better than Richardson as well.
I don't hate Richardson, but I'd like him a lot better as a fourth or fifth rounder than a second rounder. I think they are really going to regret not getting Moncrief or Bryant.
5) Letting Chris Clemmons leave. Clemmons was the most overlooked star of the Super Bowel. He finally looked healed up and spent the whole game in Peyton's grill. I know he's old, but they really needed to find a way to keep him.
Plenty of the Seahawks problems are injury related - losing Lane and Maxwell and now Cam has really taken a bite out of the secondary (they miss Lane on punt coverage as well). The already mediocre line is decimated, Unger is particularly glaring by his absence. Miller looks much more valuable than I gave him credit for. Wagner being out leaves a massive hole in the middle of the defense.
Pete has his share of responsibility as well. His willingness to let Bevell destroy the offense for the sake of Harvin was terrible, and his clock management continues to leave plenty to be desired.
That said, I still think I'd take Schneider and Carroll over any non Bellicheck coach/gm combo in the league. They're not perfect, but they're really good. Feels to me like this team might have a bigtime run in it down the stretch once everybody gets back and they get pissed that the world thinks Arizona is better than they are.
I think you cover the questions I would ask. I get the Tate/Clemons departures, but I don't think the team has really filled either of those holes. Richardson seems (so far) pretty sub-optimal given the talent selected behind him as you said.
You could take your 2013 draft comment and walk backwards to 2011 and ask some of the basic questions once you move beyond Wilson/Sherman/KJ Wright/Wagner. Where are the other blue-chippers from the early rounds? How have the Hooks spent two first-rounders, two second-rounders and one third-rounder (plus late rounder Cable projects) since 2010 and ended up with the line they have to date, even when you take away the injuries?
I also think Bevell is killing the offense regardless of Harvin (with PC's approval) and fear we may have hit Bevell's ceiling particularly if the scuttlebutt was true that "he couldn't figure out how to integrate Harvin into the offense." I still see the same bubble screen shit we had with Harvin (plus Lynch draw plays into the line led by our mediocre run blockers), just now with much less dynamic playmakers. Not sure what we've solved there -- seems like there's a pretty basic formula for attacking this offense now which we will now see over and over for the rest of the season.
As you said there is still time to turn this around, even this year, and the long-term model is likely like NE/GB where it will be to aim for 11-12 wins a year while not maximizing for a given year, and contend on a regular basis. (which makes sense in the salary cap era) Let's acknowledge, though, that the window before Wilson gets paid is really, really high-potential given the incremental resources available, and the Harvin trade as well as sub-optimal drafting may have closed that part of the window more than we might like and hope...
The NFC is imploding. Foles is out for a long time, Dallas is crashing hard, and SF fans want their team to die in a plane crash. Seattle is winning games despite being injured as fuck. The goal should be to just make the playoffs and see what happens. There isn't a powerhouse at all in the NFC. Right now the #1 seed is Arizona quarterbacked by Carson Palmer.
The NFC is imploding. Foles is out for a long time, Dallas is crashing hard, and SF fans want their team to die in a plane crash. Seattle is winning games despite being injured as fuck. The goal should be to just make the playoffs and see what happens. There isn't a powerhouse at all in the NFC. Right now the #1 seed is Arizona quarterbacked by Carson Palmer.
I agree. Carroll mentioned this morning they could get 6-7 guys back for next week he mentioned okung, unger, chancellor, hill and lane. they should beat the struggling giants (they're 7-8 point favorites) and go to 6-3 heading into KC. Seattle and SF were clearly the best teams in the NFC last year, I don't see any dominant teams that the seahawks absolutely couldn't beat if they sneak in as a WC.
I agree. Carroll mentioned this morning they could get 6-7 guys back for next week he mentioned okung, unger, chancellor, hill and lane. they should beat the struggling giants (they're 7-8 point favorites) and go to 6-3 heading into KC. Seattle and SF were clearly the best teams in the NFC last year, I don't see any dominant teams that the seahawks absolutely couldn't beat if they sneak in as a WC.
I'm not ready to put the division off the table either. The Cards are good but they're not this damn good, they beat our Iggles on a Hail Mary and beat the Cowboys thanks to Brandon Weeden. If Seattle can beat them at home in three weeks and be one game back for the rematch in Arizona the second to last week of the year it sets up for a classic Carson Palmer choke/injury/abundance.
OTOH Seattle's schedule is tougher down the stretch - each has four road games Arizona's slate of St Louis, Seattle, San Francisco, Atlanta is much easier than Seattle having KC, Arizona, SF, Philly. OTOH Arizona's home schedule is tougher: KC, St Louis, Detroit, Seattle vs NYG, St Louis, SF, Arizona. I'd rather have Arizona's schedule for sure but it's not inconceivable both emerge at 11-5 with Seattle winning both head to head and getting the tiebreaker.
Most importantly SF looks legimitately mediocre with not only the .500 record but a negative point differential. They're not a contender.
I agree. Carroll mentioned this morning they could get 6-7 guys back for next week he mentioned okung, unger, chancellor, hill and lane. they should beat the struggling giants (they're 7-8 point favorites) and go to 6-3 heading into KC. Seattle and SF were clearly the best teams in the NFC last year, I don't see any dominant teams that the seahawks absolutely couldn't beat if they sneak in as a WC.
I'm not ready to put the division off the table either. The Cards are good but they're not this damn good, they beat our Iggles on a Hail Mary and beat the Cowboys thanks to Brandon Weeden. If Seattle can beat them at home in three weeks and be one game back for the rematch in Arizona the second to last week of the year it sets up for a classic Carson Palmer choke/injury/abundance.
OTOH Seattle's schedule is tougher down the stretch - each has four road games Arizona's slate of St Louis, Seattle, San Francisco, Atlanta is much easier than Seattle having KC, Arizona, SF, Philly. OTOH Arizona's home schedule is tougher: KC, St Louis, Detroit, Seattle vs NYG, St Louis, SF, Arizona. I'd rather have Arizona's schedule for sure but it's not inconceivable both emerge at 11-5 with Seattle winning both head to head and getting the tiebreaker.
Most importantly SF looks legimitately mediocre with not only the .500 record but a negative point differential. They're not a contender.
They are looking at 4-5 since they have to play at New Orleans next week. Playing in New Orleans would actually be the worst case playoff scenario IMO. They are a juggernaut at home and seems like they score at least 30+ no matter who they play. I would think Seattle would be pretty big underdogs in that case.
I agree. Carroll mentioned this morning they could get 6-7 guys back for next week he mentioned okung, unger, chancellor, hill and lane. they should beat the struggling giants (they're 7-8 point favorites) and go to 6-3 heading into KC. Seattle and SF were clearly the best teams in the NFC last year, I don't see any dominant teams that the seahawks absolutely couldn't beat if they sneak in as a WC.
I'm not ready to put the division off the table either. The Cards are good but they're not this damn good, they beat our Iggles on a Hail Mary and beat the Cowboys thanks to Brandon Weeden. If Seattle can beat them at home in three weeks and be one game back for the rematch in Arizona the second to last week of the year it sets up for a classic Carson Palmer choke/injury/abundance.
OTOH Seattle's schedule is tougher down the stretch - each has four road games Arizona's slate of St Louis, Seattle, San Francisco, Atlanta is much easier than Seattle having KC, Arizona, SF, Philly. OTOH Arizona's home schedule is tougher: KC, St Louis, Detroit, Seattle vs NYG, St Louis, SF, Arizona. I'd rather have Arizona's schedule for sure but it's not inconceivable both emerge at 11-5 with Seattle winning both head to head and getting the tiebreaker.
Most importantly SF looks legimitately mediocre with not only the .500 record but a negative point differential. They're not a contender.
They are looking at 4-5 since they have to play at New Orleans next week. Playing in New Orleans would actually be the worst case playoff scenario IMO. They are a juggernaut at home and seems like they score at least 30+ no matter who they play. I would think Seattle would be pretty big underdogs in that case.
And their fans *hate* Seattle thanks to the two playoff losses in the CLink and the Monday night raping and especially having to play the playoff game in Seattle when we were 7-9.
Definitely agree traveling to NO is worst case scenario.
NO proved last year they could not match up with Seattle physically. They got their doors blown off in the regular season, and then got beat up again in the playoffs (the Seahawks took their foot off the gas up 16-0) but they are tough at home. I'd give them about the same chance to win no matter the venue. That said I still think they can win the division
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I've only seen half the games but unless they get relatively healthy they're winning 10, maybe 11 and they probably won't win three straight in the playoffs, mostly or totally on the road.
They forget that some of last year's games were close calls, one of which was against the hapless Houston Texans team. They weren't plungering teams on their way to the playoffs.
We Are Twelve!
Feel like this is the right place to ask this
But it's the same people who made the decisions that brought Seattle it's only pro championship in my lifetime. They've earned the right for us to give them time to correct their mistakes and get their shit together. I'm not as confident as I was in the offseason, but I still think the future is pretty bright.
OTOH they did inherit a disaster and have won 11 games in back to back years, along with a SB, and I still believe they'll win 10-11 this year when everyone comes back. So I'm not going to begin to question just yet
I just think we can have some healthy discussion about some of the sub-optimal decisions driving this years performance (and maybe beyond?) without having to feel like we have to state that we support PCJS
Maybe it's having been born and raised in WA but lived a good amount of my adult life in NYC and DC that makes me feel this way (listening to sport radio there eviserate Joe Gibbs, Eli Manning/Tom Coughlin, etc... in years after their super bowls), but similar to the Sark era it feels like there is a gap between the "believers"/doogs and the balanced view
What suboptimal decisions are you referring to specifically? My biggest complaints are as follows:
1) The first Harvin trade. Way too much to give up for him in the salary cap era even if he wasn't a fragile headcase. I liked swinging for the fences at the time, but in retrospect it was the kind of move Bellichek never makes. He never mortgages the future to make one run. As it turns out, the Hooks didn't need him to make that run anyway.
2) Letting Tate go if there was any chance they were going to have to move on from Harvin. Pretty self explanatory, as not only has Tate blown up with the Lions but they have desperately missed him in the return game. Brian fucking Walters.
3) The 2013 draft. Everyone said it was a redshirt class, but it's looking more like a suddenly senior class. Maybe Simon provides some value, but Williams was a decent gamble that isn't likely to pay off, Willson's worse than Helfet, Harper's already been cut, Hill's not special at all, and Michael can't even beat out Turbin, enough said on that.
4) Drafting Paul Richardson. I liked trading down as it's almost always the best strategy, but when you look at the receivers on the bored there that the Hooks passed on that could have given Wilson the big athletic receiver he really needs I just shake my head. Passed on Allen Robinson, Donte Moncrief, Cody Latimer and Martavis Bryant. Devonte Adams looks like a better pick too, and as far as pure burners go John Brown looks better than Richardson as well.
I don't hate Richardson, but I'd like him a lot better as a fourth or fifth rounder than a second rounder. I think they are really going to regret not getting Moncrief or Bryant.
5) Letting Chris Clemmons leave. Clemmons was the most overlooked star of the Super Bowel. He finally looked healed up and spent the whole game in Peyton's grill. I know he's old, but they really needed to find a way to keep him.
Plenty of the Seahawks problems are injury related - losing Lane and Maxwell and now Cam has really taken a bite out of the secondary (they miss Lane on punt coverage as well). The already mediocre line is decimated, Unger is particularly glaring by his absence. Miller looks much more valuable than I gave him credit for. Wagner being out leaves a massive hole in the middle of the defense.
Pete has his share of responsibility as well. His willingness to let Bevell destroy the offense for the sake of Harvin was terrible, and his clock management continues to leave plenty to be desired.
That said, I still think I'd take Schneider and Carroll over any non Bellicheck coach/gm combo in the league. They're not perfect, but they're really good. Feels to me like this team might have a bigtime run in it down the stretch once everybody gets back and they get pissed that the world thinks Arizona is better than they are.
You could take your 2013 draft comment and walk backwards to 2011 and ask some of the basic questions once you move beyond Wilson/Sherman/KJ Wright/Wagner. Where are the other blue-chippers from the early rounds? How have the Hooks spent two first-rounders, two second-rounders and one third-rounder (plus late rounder Cable projects) since 2010 and ended up with the line they have to date, even when you take away the injuries?
I also think Bevell is killing the offense regardless of Harvin (with PC's approval) and fear we may have hit Bevell's ceiling particularly if the scuttlebutt was true that "he couldn't figure out how to integrate Harvin into the offense." I still see the same bubble screen shit we had with Harvin (plus Lynch draw plays into the line led by our mediocre run blockers), just now with much less dynamic playmakers. Not sure what we've solved there -- seems like there's a pretty basic formula for attacking this offense now which we will now see over and over for the rest of the season.
As you said there is still time to turn this around, even this year, and the long-term model is likely like NE/GB where it will be to aim for 11-12 wins a year while not maximizing for a given year, and contend on a regular basis. (which makes sense in the salary cap era) Let's acknowledge, though, that the window before Wilson gets paid is really, really high-potential given the incremental resources available, and the Harvin trade as well as sub-optimal drafting may have closed that part of the window more than we might like and hope...
he mentioned okung, unger, chancellor, hill and lane.
they should beat the struggling giants (they're 7-8 point favorites) and go to 6-3 heading into KC.
Seattle and SF were clearly the best teams in the NFC last year, I don't see any dominant teams that the seahawks absolutely couldn't beat if they sneak in as a WC.
OTOH Seattle's schedule is tougher down the stretch - each has four road games Arizona's slate of St Louis, Seattle, San Francisco, Atlanta is much easier than Seattle having KC, Arizona, SF, Philly. OTOH Arizona's home schedule is tougher: KC, St Louis, Detroit, Seattle vs NYG, St Louis, SF, Arizona. I'd rather have Arizona's schedule for sure but it's not inconceivable both emerge at 11-5 with Seattle winning both head to head and getting the tiebreaker.
Most importantly SF looks legimitately mediocre with not only the .500 record but a negative point differential. They're not a contender.
Definitely agree traveling to NO is worst case scenario.
Saving Lynch until we're out of the playoffs doesn't make a lot of sense.
I'd give them about the same chance to win no matter the venue.
That said I still think they can win the division