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Pray for Stanford

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    pawzpawz Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 18,755
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    edited April 1

    Sounds like you think and care. @WestlinnDuck

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    Some History:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rachel-corrie-us-activist-killed-by-israel-bulldozer-brought-it-upon-herself-court-says/

    The home demolitions were part of an unsuccessful campaign to halt thousands of attacks on soldiers and Jewish settlers in southern Gaza, along the border with Egypt, in the preceding 3 ½ years …

    … According to the U.N. agency handling Palestinian refugees, the military had left more than 17,000 Gazans homeless in the four years after a Palestinian uprising against Israel erupted in September 2000. The demolitions drew international condemnation at the time.

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    "Soft headed" … It takes far more personal fortitude to NOT respond violently to violence. Ghandi was known for his iron will - not just his pacifism - when he defeated the British Empire.

    I'm sure a draconian reprisal will be different this tim…

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    "Was it retired Hamas elders" … It is certainly the elders that remember being forcibly removed from their homes and to watch those homes be bulldozed.

    How would you respond to being forcibly removed from your home and/or have to watch it be torn to the ground? I'm guessing not well.

    This isn't isolated to the above story either. This is effectively what's been going on since the west decided this is where Jews would live post WW2. It's a fact. Some would say the history.

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    "they need to be taught differently" … "I'm sure they will learn differently by killing more of them," said no sincere person ever.

    The younger generation can observe the actions of the West for themselves. Its a safe bet what the Elders will say. Why act in a way which reinforces that?

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    "You say that you understand history and then ignore it" … We are watching the same cycle over and over - heinous lashing out followed by draconian response. Both sides ultimately unsuccessful.

    We need to deal with what is causing the lashing out and effectively being incarcerated for decades. Hamas is a symptom, not the cause. The cause is the outrage from losing their homes and subsequent incarceration. I'm not saying Israel should give back what's taken, but they need to find a better way to deal with those issues. The outrage is understandable.

    You seem to want to continue the pattern. I don't. IF you want something different, you need to do something different.

    One thing is for sure. Leadership from both sides of the victim-card think they profit politically by unrest and violence. Same as it ever was.

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    So how is watching history repeat itself and acknowledging that fact, ignoring it? Pray tell.

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    WestlinnDuckWestlinnDuck Member Posts: 13,845
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    I'll just deal with the first two. When the goal is the extermination of your citizens, you get to fight back.

    The home demolitions were part of an unsuccessful campaign to halt thousands of attacks on soldiers and Jewish settlers in southern Gaza, along the border with Egypt, in the preceding 3 ½ years

    I added some more emphasis to the part you don't seem concerned about. October 7th, From the River to the Sea, wasn't about Jewish settlers on their land unless you concede that the Palis think that the Israelis are on their land, which they do.

    "Soft headed" … It takes far more personal fortitude to NOT respond violently to violence. Ghandi was known for his iron will - not just his pacifism - when he defeated the British Empire.

    I'm sure a draconian reprisal will be different this tim…

    Yes, soft headed and historically ignorant. The Westernized British Empire was not Hamas nor was it the Soviet Union under Stalin or Germany under Hitler. Arafat knew if he agreed to peace, he was a dead man. There is no Pali Ghandi. And there are Jewish Ghandis. But when dealing with brutal killers, most Israelis don't have the iron will just to die and get over it. And yes, draconian reprisals are more effective than appeasement. Consider World War I vs. World War II. Or reviewing the establishment of the totalitarian USSR and Communist China. The Palis could have peace if they want it. They don't. Which is my point. Your point remains that the Jews should just ….

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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,741
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    edited April 1

    The world is full of sad stories of who did what to whom a long time ago. Imagine if the Native Americans were to adopt the terrorist approach for wrongs visited upon them, and there were many much more heinous wrongs they suffered than the wrongs done to Arab Palestinians in 1948. Much more heinous.

    This also doesn't explain terrorism by the same, or closely related, ethnic and religious people elsewhere who don't have the same history. You're ignoring the very real religious reasons why Muslims act out against Jews.

    This also doesn't explain why these very people rejected 4 completely generous and reasonable peace offerings by Israel over the years. Four times. Arafat rejected the last one because he knew he'd be dead within a week of signing any kind of peace accord with the Jews. HIS PEOPLE DID NOT WANT IT ON ANY TERMS OTHER THAN ISRAEL PACKING UP! You have to understand that before talking about how to deal with this crowd. Conventional notions of abused children just don't apply here.

    Lastly, I reject the label of pre-10/7 Gaza as "effectively being incarcerated." Those aren't the facts. Stop blowing up your neighbor's house. Until then, they're going to regulate who comes and goes. But Israel didn't prevent capital investment in Gaza. Didn't prevent development of shoreline condos and resorts. Didn't prevent improved infrastructure. What if the Gazan's had invested all that terror money into making Gaza a desirable place to be? In which to invest? JFC, Trump's son-in-law can see it from here.

    No. Some people are who they are as you find them to be. We are at least a generation removed from a population of Palestinian Arabs whom we can trust to not fall into terror governments. Bibi knows that, but it doesn't mean it's what he wants.

    Consider this. After WWI, we blamed ourselves for leaving Germany in ruins and humiliating them with post-war restrictions. We said that we left a country ripe for an authoritarian overthrow, and that's what happened. But even while acknowledging our role in Bad Germany Part II, it didn't stop us from obliterating them again. Gandhi was successful in his peace campaign because he was dealing with an evolved, enlightened world power. And, candidly, the British are special and unique among world governments, and you know it. Most other countries, in my estimation, only understand the whip.

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    LebamDawgLebamDawg Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,534
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    I don't bother reading about the Middle East after reading up on the Mufti of Jerusalem (preWWII) and his war crimes and how the west sent him to Egypt in hopes of getting mass quantities of oil. Nothing worked as planned for either side and still doesn't - nothing has changed except the press.

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    RaceBannonRaceBannon Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 101,173
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    Who are you going to believe some pimple faced loser in college or the son of a Hamas commander? You really should see what they say when it's not for Americans

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    EverettChrisEverettChris Member Posts: 1,379
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    The people there voted Hamas into office. The gaslighting from our politicians and their media is so absurd yet it’s effective on tens of millions of ignorant dopes. They trust whatever they see as if politicians and the media are the ultimate authority of truth.

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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,741
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    The single greatest line of bullshit in this whole debate is the one that tries to cast the Gazans and other Palestinian Arabs as victims of Hamas and Israel. The same stupid line some have used to apologize for Germany's old habits of aggression. Just a few loons in charge and a bunch of fine people just trying to live peacefully.

    In all fairness, it is hard for anyone raised in the west to fit in their heads the idea that Palestine is that full of people who firmly believe in the goal of eliminating Israel and Jews from the region. It's like, yeah, man, they are dead serious. Yeah, even the guy who teaches third grade kids. He's a full on operative. JFC.

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    WestlinnDuckWestlinnDuck Member Posts: 13,845
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    Look at supposed institutions of peace like Amnesty International. They couldn't be more left and more pro-authoritarian. And like all leftard organizations, the Big Lie is in play. Just a poor young "writer" who has been held by the horrible Jews for 38 years. Amnesty International has no interest in a peaceful solution that isn't From the River to the Sea. Same with the term genocide. Genocide is what happened to the Jews in Europe under the NAZIs, the Armenian genocide by the Turks in 2015, the starvation of millions of Ukrainians by Stalin in the early 1930s, or the Tutsi genocide in Rwanda in 1994. That is what real genocide looks like. When you need to lie to make your point, maybe you don't have a point. There will peace in Gaza when Gaza wants peace.

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