Is it time fire Scott Servais?

DerekJohnson

Just answer the question, bud

TheRoarOfTheCrowd

No

No, but clearly need to make a major change about how to develop hitters in the minor league system, do a better job of evaluating and drafting hitters, make the investment to build the evaluation and development network structure for international players, and it would be a huge help to get proven hitters in free agency that don't fold up with the challenge of hitting in the home park environment ~ all of which says that identifying and going out and getting a big time Player Development / Assistant GM guy at the top in addition to the current GM, and then spending the money to fund the build out of improved infrastructure would be my priority. No problem, Right?

Switching managers for a proven big time guy that can attract big time hitters / players would be great (Piniella did that for Seattle, Baker has done that, Bochy has done that for Texas) would be great as well, but until we get more talent in the lineup and spend more resources within the development system, i don't think that is the current scenario difference maker.

DerekJohnson

Yes

TheRoarOfTheCrowd said:

No, but clearly need to make a major change about how to develop hitters in the minor league system, do a better job of evaluating and drafting hitters, make the investment to build the evaluation and development network structure for international players, and it would be a huge help to get proven hitters in free agency that don't fold up with the challenge of hitting in the home park environment ~ all of which says that identifying and going out and getting a big time Player Development / Assistant GM guy at the top in addition to the current GM, and then spending the money to fund the build out of improved infrastructure would be my priority. No problem, Right?

Switching managers for a proven big time guy that can attract big time hitters / players would be great (Piniella did that for Seattle, Baker has done that, Bochy has done that for Texas) would be great as well, but until we get more talent in the lineup and spend more resources within the development system, i don't think that is the current scenario difference maker.

Then we will keep treading water and be in the same position next year. When the pressure is on this team folds. The only thing that has ever changed that was Piniella's presence and attitude

Fishpo31

The switch to analytics has taken the game-management piece away from managers. He is a people manager, first and foremost. It takes the infamous “managing with your gut” out of the equation, which, IMO is a major negative, but it is what it is. Lou could not manage today, as well as a lot of others. I could manage today, because I would be told who to play and when to play them…not that I would want to.

It looks like he runs a good clubhouse, but it also has a shelf life. We revere Lou, but I remember the shots of Griffey an others laughing hysterically at Lou railing at umpires, defending them. Woodworth is very good with the pitchers, and Perry Hill is maybe second only to Ron Washington as an infield coach.

chuck

No

I don't think it would help them. They need better hitters and for the pitchers to not give up so many long balls.

phineas

No

give him another year or two imo.

if they cant make a run in the next two years then its over regardless. fire everyone and blow the whole thing up.

RaceBannon

It's always time

DerekJohnson

Yes

Fishpo31 said:

The switch to analytics has taken the game-management piece away from managers. He is a people manager, first and foremost. It takes the infamous “managing with your gut” out of the equation, which, IMO is a major negative, but it is what it is. Lou could not manage today, as well as a lot of others. I could manage today, because I would be told who to play and when to play them…not that I would want to.

It looks like he runs a good clubhouse, but it also has a shelf life. We revere Lou, but I remember the shots of Griffey an others laughing hysterically at Lou railing at umpires, defending them. Woodworth is very good with the pitchers, and Perry Hill is maybe second only to Ron Washington as an infield coach.

There's still the people element. Of course Lou could manage today.

HFNY

No

I have gone back and forth on this but @Fishpo31 made the good point that his surrounding staff is good.

I don't like that Servais is 6-14 in extra innings though 2024 is when ownership opens their wallets and lets Jerry get Servais 1 or 2 professional hitters to extend the line-up. Having France at 1B and Haggerty at DH when it's win or go home time (Saturday) is not a winning strategy.

I don't really know who to blame for the players brought in who should have done well enough but bombed. Wong cost the M's $8.25 million (Brewers paid $1.75 for the $10 million) and Pollock cost $8 million. Adding insult to injury is that Evan White will cost $7 million in 2024.

If the M's can spend that $16.25 million (from Pollock / Wong), they could get a hitter like Bellinger, assuming his shoulder checks out.

I'm not sure what they do with Marco and France as their combined contracts are over $10 million but neither of them seem to have a full-time spot with the M's for 2024. If they do, there is something wrong.

Fishpo31

DerekJohnson said:

Fishpo31 said:

The switch to analytics has taken the game-management piece away from managers. He is a people manager, first and foremost. It takes the infamous “managing with your gut” out of the equation, which, IMO is a major negative, but it is what it is. Lou could not manage today, as well as a lot of others. I could manage today, because I would be told who to play and when to play them…not that I would want to.

It looks like he runs a good clubhouse, but it also has a shelf life. We revere Lou, but I remember the shots of Griffey an others laughing hysterically at Lou railing at umpires, defending them. Woodworth is very good with the pitchers, and Perry Hill is maybe second only to Ron Washington as an infield coach.

There's still the people element. Of course Lou could manage today.

I have the utmost respect for Lou Piniella, as a player, a coach, and as a baseball man. The game has changed, evolved for better or worse. Sure, he could manage, but would he?

I have found exclusive footage of Lou Piniella, in his triumphant return to the dug out, in his first strategy meeting with the analytics department, none of whom ever played professional baseball (or college, for that matter), with freshly-minted mathematics degrees from Ivy League schools...
https://youtu.be/YSPaLiTBL3E?si=Jj9J7teiklAgaiIS

chuck

No

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

Fishpo31

chuck said:

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

I think it would be shocking, especially since pretty much every current player has his back publicly, and he speaks the truth…the telling statement in his apology: “I’m not going to apologize for wanting to win”…

chuck

No

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

I think it would be shocking, especially since pretty much every current player has his back publicly, and he speaks the truth…the telling statement in his apology: “I’m not going to apologize for wanting to win”…

Agreed, but things can get messy when a guy speaks up and says his teammates as a whole weren't good enough. The players have his back, but I have to assume that everytime someone talks like that, most players spend a moment wondering if they're the ones that need to be upgraded on. France has to be in that boat right now. Geno too maybe, and probably Kelenic.

Plus the Boras factor...

Fishpo31

chuck said:

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

I think it would be shocking, especially since pretty much every current player has his back publicly, and he speaks the truth…the telling statement in his apology: “I’m not going to apologize for wanting to win”…

Agreed, but things can get messy when a guy speaks up and says his teammates as a whole weren't good enough. The players have his back, but I have to assume that everytime someone talks like that, most players spend a moment wondering if they're the ones that need to be upgraded on. France has to be in that boat right now. Geno too maybe, and probably Kelenic.

Plus the Boras factor...

France yes, Kelenic no...He's 24 and has a chance to be a dude for years. First rounder, first round tools, if you do he will go into the Adam Jones / Variek / Lowe / C. Taylor / all the others Hall of Fame...He made a big jump for me this year, and proved he can hit left handers. He was a MLB average player this year, can play all three spots. Lots of upside still. All you will find to replace him is a .230 hitter who hits 25 bombs and punches out 180 times, and you have one of those in Geno. Sign a DH (Ohtani) and 1B (Bellinger?) and you can carry a borderline gold glove defender who hits 25-30, drives in 80,, and punches out 180.

Cal is 26, and spent part of last year in AAA. He is a centerpiece. It takes time, and it takes patience. Boras isn't going anywhere. Pay the man.

As for Cal, yeah, it was ugly, but it was in the heat of the moment. Nothing he said wasn't true. Maybe it will wake up Stanton, et al., and help the ownership realize that they are perceived (accurately) as cheap. They go as far as their pitching takes them, which is not far enough.

AAAAAND, if you are wondering if Cal was talking about you, it is you...

HFNY

No

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

I think it would be shocking, especially since pretty much every current player has his back publicly, and he speaks the truth…the telling statement in his apology: “I’m not going to apologize for wanting to win”…

Agreed, but things can get messy when a guy speaks up and says his teammates as a whole weren't good enough. The players have his back, but I have to assume that everytime someone talks like that, most players spend a moment wondering if they're the ones that need to be upgraded on. France has to be in that boat right now. Geno too maybe, and probably Kelenic.

Plus the Boras factor...

France yes, Kelenic no...He's 24 and has a chance to be a dude for years. First rounder, first round tools, if you do he will go into the Adam Jones / Variek / Lowe / C. Taylor / all the others Hall of Fame...He made a big jump for me this year, and proved he can hit left handers. He was a MLB average player this year, can play all three spots. Lots of upside still. All you will find to replace him is a .230 hitter who hits 25 bombs and punches out 180 times, and you have one of those in Geno. Sign a DH (Ohtani) and 1B (Bellinger?) and you can carry a borderline gold glove defender who hits 25-30, drives in 80,, and punches out 180.

Cal is 26, and spent part of last year in AAA. He is a centerpiece. It takes time, and it takes patience. Boras isn't going anywhere. Pay the man.

As for Cal, yeah, it was ugly, but it was in the heat of the moment. Nothing he said wasn't true. Maybe it will wake up Stanton, et al., and help the ownership realize that they are perceived (accurately) as cheap. They go as far as their pitching takes them, which is not far enough.

AAAAAND, if you are wondering if Cal was talking about you, it is you...

Would you sign Bellinger to a 4 year, $75 million deal to play 1B and JD Martinez to be the DH at a 1 year, $12 million deal? I see ownership paying lip-service to Ohtani but not wanting to shell out $30 million (plus) as they would deem it too risky.

chuck

No

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

I think it would be shocking, especially since pretty much every current player has his back publicly, and he speaks the truth…the telling statement in his apology: “I’m not going to apologize for wanting to win”…

Agreed, but things can get messy when a guy speaks up and says his teammates as a whole weren't good enough. The players have his back, but I have to assume that everytime someone talks like that, most players spend a moment wondering if they're the ones that need to be upgraded on. France has to be in that boat right now. Geno too maybe, and probably Kelenic.

Plus the Boras factor...

France yes, Kelenic no...He's 24 and has a chance to be a dude for years. First rounder, first round tools, if you do he will go into the Adam Jones / Variek / Lowe / C. Taylor / all the others Hall of Fame...He made a big jump for me this year, and proved he can hit left handers. He was a MLB average player this year, can play all three spots. Lots of upside still. All you will find to replace him is a .230 hitter who hits 25 bombs and punches out 180 times, and you have one of those in Geno. Sign a DH (Ohtani) and 1B (Bellinger?) and you can carry a borderline gold glove defender who hits 25-30, drives in 80,, and punches out 180.

Cal is 26, and spent part of last year in AAA. He is a centerpiece. It takes time, and it takes patience. Boras isn't going anywhere. Pay the man.

As for Cal, yeah, it was ugly, but it was in the heat of the moment. Nothing he said wasn't true. Maybe it will wake up Stanton, et al., and help the ownership realize that they are perceived (accurately) as cheap. They go as far as their pitching takes them, which is not far enough.

AAAAAND, if you are wondering if Cal was talking about you, it is you...

For the record I have no interest in moving Raleigh even for a massive haul. He's the heart and soul of the team to me and is crazy productive for a catcher. I'd be fucking pissed. I've just heard/seen a couple of people discussing the topic and thought I'd bring it up while playing a little devil's advocate.

Kelenic made progress in some ways and is a good all round player who costs nothing and still has high potential. If he was a really sought after guy I'd be willing to listen but I think he's more valuable as a Mariner than he would be in a trade.

My wants are a couple of bats to upgrade at 1b and DH, and a high leverage relief arm. I think Seattle would be in the playoffs right now if they hadn't lost Sewald (but still added Rojas and Canzone) or had filled his spot appropriately. I also hope to never see Haggerty ever again, at least not getting crucial, late inning ABs because of matchups. Better bench bats are out there.

phineas

No

chuck said:

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

hes gone the first chance he gets.

and so is kirby.

not that i want them to go. but why would a winner want to stay with this loser franchise.

please stay. but i know youre gone. and i dont blame you.

HFNY

No

phineas said:

chuck said:

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

hes gone the first chance he gets.

and so is kirby.

not that i want them to go. but why would a winner want to stay with this loser franchise.

please stay. but i know youre gone. and i dont blame you.

Well here's a (somewhat) realistic line-up that could get them back to the playoffs:

SS: Crawford
CF: Julio
1B: Cody Bellinger (4 year, $96 million)
DH: JD Martinez (1 year, $14 million but be willing to go up to $17)
C: Cal
RF: Teo (ideally he's back on a 2 year, $34 million deal but he'll probably want 3 or 4...RF market is pretty weak)
LF: Kelenic
3B: Suarez (Matt Chapman isn't that much better so I see them rolling with Geno 1 more year)
2B: Rojas

If Marco is healthy, can the M's trade his $12.5 million salary for a lottery ticket if they through in $4 million? The M's can't trade Ray until after he is healthy and I don't see a team taking on his $22 million salary.

Another route the M's could go (depending on who they sign) is a package of Hancock, France, and Trammell or Zach DeLoach for a good / controllable RF who is cheaper than Teo (or JD Martinez and move Teo to DH). I am also optimistic on Canzone, I think he'll do pretty well against RHP next year and I want to see him on the roster.

I don't see the M's going all-in for Ohtani unless they run with Canzone at RF with Dylan Moore backing him up against some LHPs. They would save around $17 million by going cheaper there but Ohtani would take DH in 2024 while still needing to solve 1B (Bellinger with Ty backing him and Ohtani up as the RH 1B / DH)?

Fishpo31

HFNY said:

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

I think it would be shocking, especially since pretty much every current player has his back publicly, and he speaks the truth…the telling statement in his apology: “I’m not going to apologize for wanting to win”…

Agreed, but things can get messy when a guy speaks up and says his teammates as a whole weren't good enough. The players have his back, but I have to assume that everytime someone talks like that, most players spend a moment wondering if they're the ones that need to be upgraded on. France has to be in that boat right now. Geno too maybe, and probably Kelenic.

Plus the Boras factor...

France yes, Kelenic no...He's 24 and has a chance to be a dude for years. First rounder, first round tools, if you do he will go into the Adam Jones / Variek / Lowe / C. Taylor / all the others Hall of Fame...He made a big jump for me this year, and proved he can hit left handers. He was a MLB average player this year, can play all three spots. Lots of upside still. All you will find to replace him is a .230 hitter who hits 25 bombs and punches out 180 times, and you have one of those in Geno. Sign a DH (Ohtani) and 1B (Bellinger?) and you can carry a borderline gold glove defender who hits 25-30, drives in 80,, and punches out 180.

Cal is 26, and spent part of last year in AAA. He is a centerpiece. It takes time, and it takes patience. Boras isn't going anywhere. Pay the man.

As for Cal, yeah, it was ugly, but it was in the heat of the moment. Nothing he said wasn't true. Maybe it will wake up Stanton, et al., and help the ownership realize that they are perceived (accurately) as cheap. They go as far as their pitching takes them, which is not far enough.

AAAAAND, if you are wondering if Cal was talking about you, it is you...

Would you sign Bellinger to a 4 year, $75 million deal to play 1B and JD Martinez to be the DH at a 1 year, $12 million deal? I see ownership paying lip-service to Ohtani but not wanting to shell out $30 million (plus) as they would deem it too risky.

if their people think Bellinger is fixed, yes. I think the situation for Bellinger is good, because he doesn't come in being "The Guy"...He brings length, and has some protection.

I heard that they were inquiring about Martinez last offseason, and were told he was not interested in Seattle. He's a Miami guy, and also heard that he can be a handful if not happy.

The question for me is, would you pay 35-40MM per for Ohtani's bat? I would. It will probably take somewhere north of 50MM per to sign him, and Stanton needs to do it. It's time to shit or get off the pot...

chuck

No

Fishpo31 said:

HFNY said:

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Fishpo31 said:

chuck said:

Anyone feel like a Cal Raleigh trade would be less than shocking?

I'm not suggesting it so don't twist.

He's disgruntled and spoke up about it. He's a Scott Boras client. He has a lot of value and is probably not going to resign with Seattle down the road (I don't remember if he's down to 1 or 2 arb years).

I hope not. Nobody is untouchable in my mind though. Not if you can make clear, overall upgrades.

I think it would be shocking, especially since pretty much every current player has his back publicly, and he speaks the truth…the telling statement in his apology: “I’m not going to apologize for wanting to win”…

Agreed, but things can get messy when a guy speaks up and says his teammates as a whole weren't good enough. The players have his back, but I have to assume that everytime someone talks like that, most players spend a moment wondering if they're the ones that need to be upgraded on. France has to be in that boat right now. Geno too maybe, and probably Kelenic.

Plus the Boras factor...

France yes, Kelenic no...He's 24 and has a chance to be a dude for years. First rounder, first round tools, if you do he will go into the Adam Jones / Variek / Lowe / C. Taylor / all the others Hall of Fame...He made a big jump for me this year, and proved he can hit left handers. He was a MLB average player this year, can play all three spots. Lots of upside still. All you will find to replace him is a .230 hitter who hits 25 bombs and punches out 180 times, and you have one of those in Geno. Sign a DH (Ohtani) and 1B (Bellinger?) and you can carry a borderline gold glove defender who hits 25-30, drives in 80,, and punches out 180.

Cal is 26, and spent part of last year in AAA. He is a centerpiece. It takes time, and it takes patience. Boras isn't going anywhere. Pay the man.

As for Cal, yeah, it was ugly, but it was in the heat of the moment. Nothing he said wasn't true. Maybe it will wake up Stanton, et al., and help the ownership realize that they are perceived (accurately) as cheap. They go as far as their pitching takes them, which is not far enough.

AAAAAND, if you are wondering if Cal was talking about you, it is you...

Would you sign Bellinger to a 4 year, $75 million deal to play 1B and JD Martinez to be the DH at a 1 year, $12 million deal? I see ownership paying lip-service to Ohtani but not wanting to shell out $30 million (plus) as they would deem it too risky.

if their people think Bellinger is fixed, yes. I think the situation for Bellinger is good, because he doesn't come in being "The Guy"...He brings length, and has some protection.

I heard that they were inquiring about Martinez last offseason, and were told he was not interested in Seattle. He's a Miami guy, and also heard that he can be a handful if not happy.

The question for me is, would you pay 35-40MM per for Ohtani's bat? I would. It will probably take somewhere north of 50MM per to sign him, and Stanton needs to do it. It's time to shit or get off the pot...

I've gone back and forth especially after the injury, but I'm with you now. I'd pay whatever it took to get Ohtani. I think he puts butts in the seat, sells merch, and sells advertising enough to cover a pretty big chunk of his salary. Retiring that guy a mariner would be worth quite a bit for many years after too.

I really think any argument about him costing too much is short sighted. There should be two budgets. One that you think makes you a playoff team and WS contender, and the other should be for Ohtani.

DerekJohnson

Yes

Fishpo31 said:

DerekJohnson said:

Fishpo31 said:

The switch to analytics has taken the game-management piece away from managers. He is a people manager, first and foremost. It takes the infamous “managing with your gut” out of the equation, which, IMO is a major negative, but it is what it is. Lou could not manage today, as well as a lot of others. I could manage today, because I would be told who to play and when to play them…not that I would want to.

It looks like he runs a good clubhouse, but it also has a shelf life. We revere Lou, but I remember the shots of Griffey an others laughing hysterically at Lou railing at umpires, defending them. Woodworth is very good with the pitchers, and Perry Hill is maybe second only to Ron Washington as an infield coach.

There's still the people element. Of course Lou could manage today.

I have the utmost respect for Lou Piniella, as a player, a coach, and as a baseball man. The game has changed, evolved for better or worse. Sure, he could manage, but would he?

I have found exclusive footage of Lou Piniella, in his triumphant return to the dug out, in his first strategy meeting with the analytics department, none of whom ever played professional baseball (or college, for that matter), with freshly-minted mathematics degrees from Ivy League schools...
https://youtu.be/YSPaLiTBL3E?si=Jj9J7teiklAgaiIS

The "would he?" question is certainly valid