A Q for the Wealth Creators

AZDuck

Do you really believe you tax cuts create economic growth? Because the economics and reality seem to disagree:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/14/opinion/kansas-ruinous-tax-cuts.html?

The 2012 cuts were among the largest ever enacted by a state, reducing the top tax bracket by 25 percent and eliminating all taxes on business profits that are reported on individual income returns. (No other state has ever eliminated all taxes on these pass-through businesses.) The cuts were arrogantly promoted by Mr. Brownback with the same disproven theory that Republicans have employed for decades: There will be no loss of revenue because of all the economic growth!

“Our new pro-growth tax policy will be like a shot of adrenaline into the heart of the Kansas economy,” he wrote in 2012. “It will pave the way to the creation of tens of thousands of new jobs, bring tens of thousands of people to Kansas, and help make our state the best place in America to start and grow a small business.”

But the growth didn’t show up. Kansas, in fact, was one of only five states to lose employment over the last six months, while the rest of the country was improving. It has been below the national average in job gains for the three and half years Mr. Brownback has been in office. Average earnings in the state are down since 2012, and so is net growth in the number of registered businesses.

GrundleStiltzkin

The New York Times editorial comes from an assumption that the needs of the state government come before the individual. Personally, I have a different assumption, that increasing the right of individuals to keep more of their money, or property, is always positive and is in itself a moral good. Two different value systems.

MikeDamone

Yeah, well...

thenewamerican.com/economy/sectors/item/18685-kansas-tax-cuts-already-improving-the-state-s-economy

AZDuck

Leaving aside the deontological value of the value system you describe, in the real world Kansas is starving its state universities and primary education system. Education is the primary mode of social mobility. So poor and working class Kansan children are losing their opportunity to climb the social ladder.

AZDuck

Moody's >>>>>>> The New American

MikeDamone said:

Yeah, well...

thenewamerican.com/economy/sectors/item/18685-kansas-tax-cuts-already-improving-the-state-s-economy

Oh, and this seems to contradict the New American as well:

http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/editorials/article635575.html

While that’s a small sum, Kansas was one of only five states in the nation to shed employment over that time.

All of Kansas’ neighbors have done far better since November, led by Colorado (up 41,000 jobs), Missouri (up 15,400) and Oklahoma (up 13,800).

GrundleStiltzkin

AZDuck said:

Leaving aside the deontological value of the value system you describe, in the real world Kansas is starving its state universities and primary education system. Education is the primary mode of social mobility. So poor and working class Kansan children are losing their opportunity to climb the social ladder.

The problem is decades of expansion and misplaced priorities. If public education is a primary function of state government, the money is there to fund it. Funding is being sucked away by a myriad of agencies and programs that no one remembers establishing but no one is willing to let go. It's the same as going from a $200k/year job to a $100k/job. You probably still have enough money for your mortgage. It's the financed pair of jet skis, 3 car payments, a timeshare, and golf club membership that is dragging you down.

AZDuck

Grundle, I know we disagree on this, but I'm of the belief that more money sloshing around in the economy is good for everyone. Even paying useless fucks like me a government salary is good because I spend most of it and the money continues to slosh around the economy - paying other useless fucks at the liquor stores and massage parlors.

Spending goes down as income rises, and Laffer has been disproven. Also, the structures established by government are notoriously difficult to dismantle - part of the reason why every tax-cutting Republican administration has left ruinous deficits in their wake at the national level, and Brownback is about to crash Kansas into the fucking mountain.

Swaye

GrundleStiltzkin said:

AZDuck said:

Leaving aside the deontological value of the value system you describe, in the real world Kansas is starving its state universities and primary education system. Education is the primary mode of social mobility. So poor and working class Kansan children are losing their opportunity to climb the social ladder.

The problem is decades of expansion and misplaced priorities. If public education is a primary function of state government, the money is there to fund it. Funding is being sucked away by a myriad of agencies and programs that no one remembers establishing but no one is willing to let go. It's the same as going from a $200k/year job to a $100k/job. You probably still have enough money for your mortgage. It's the financed pair of jet skis, 3 car payments, a timeshare, and golf club membership hookers and blow that is dragging you down.

AZDuck

I'm telling you, hookers and blow are good for the overall economy. But then again, I'm a Keynesian.

doogsinparadise

Expect to hear a lot about Kansas in the coming months leading up to November, what a fucking dreckfest.

Swaye

AZDuck said:

Leaving aside the deontological value of the value system you describe, in the real world Kansas is starving its state universities and primary education system. Education is the primary mode of social mobility. So poor and working class Kansan children are losing their opportunity to climb the social ladder.

Couple poonts.

1) What the fuck is deontoligical? Is it an STD? A dinosaur?

2) The lottery is the primary mode of social mobility.

Glad I cleared that up.

AZDuck

Deontological ethics or deontology is the normative ethical position that judges the morality of an action based on the action's adherence to a rule or rules.[1] It is sometimes described as "duty" or "obligation" or "rule"-based ethics, because rules "bind you to your duty."[2] Deontological ethics is commonly contrasted to consequentialism[3] and virtue ethics. Deontological ethics is also contrasted to pragmatic ethics. In this terminology action is more important than the consequences.

GrundleStiltzkin

AZDuck said:

Grundle, I know we disagree on this, but I'm of the belief that more money sloshing around in the economy is good for everyone. Even paying useless fucks like me a government salary is good because I spend most of it and the money continues to slosh around the economy - paying other useless fucks at the liquor stores and massage parlors.

I hear ya. The sloshing in gubment bucket is a problem because that bucket has a lot of handles and a lot of holes.

AZDuck said:

Spending goes down as income rises, and Laffer has been disproven. Also, the structures established by government are notoriously difficult to dismantle - part of the reason why every tax-cutting Republican administration has left ruinous deficits in their wake at the national level, and Brownback is about to crash Kansas into the fucking mountain.

That is the very crux of it. They're all statists. Nothing ever goes away.

Swaye

This thread taught me that Grundle is smarter than he lets on, and I am quite dumb.

Swaye

AZDuck said:

Deontological ethics or deontology is the normative ethical position that judges the morality of an action based on the action's adherence to a rule or rules.[1] It is sometimes described as "duty" or "obligation" or "rule"-based ethics, because rules "bind you to your duty."[2] Deontological ethics is commonly contrasted to consequentialism[3] and virtue ethics. Deontological ethics is also contrasted to pragmatic ethics. In this terminology action is more important than the consequences.

Thanks for putting in a definition where I only understood half the words. I'm going back to Mom's basement to sulk. Might look at porn as well.

GrundleStiltzkin

Swaye said:

This thread taught me that Grundle is smarter than he lets on, and I am quite dumb.

Free pub!11!!11 And please, we're all friends in this thread, call me Assneck.

GrundleStiltzkin

Swaye said:

AZDuck said:

Leaving aside the deontological value of the value system you describe, in the real world Kansas is starving its state universities and primary education system. Education is the primary mode of social mobility. So poor and working class Kansan children are losing their opportunity to climb the social ladder.

Couple poonts.

1) What the fuck is deontoligical? Is it an STD? A dinosaur?

2) The lottery is the primary mode of social mobility.

Glad I cleared that up.

This is the primary social mobility in Kansas, amiright? #RedState #Flyover #Hillbilly

sarktastic

Moody's? isn't that the ratings service that would take pooled mortgage loans originated on 100% LTV, made to borrowers with no job, no assets and a Sears Credit Card that's 2 years old with a $1,000 limit... and rated them AAA so they could be purchased by pension funds and as legal reserves by Insurance companies??

PurpleJ

AZDuck said:

Grundle, I know we disagree on this, but I'm of the belief that more money sloshing around in the economy is good for everyone. Even paying useless fucks like me a government salary is good because I spend most of it and the money continues to slosh around the economy - paying other useless fucks at the liquor stores and massage parlors.

Spending goes down as income rises, and Laffer has been disproven. Also, the structures established by government are notoriously difficult to dismantle - part of the reason why every tax-cutting Republican administration has left ruinous deficits in their wake at the national level, and Brownback is about to crash Kansas into the fucking mountain.

Laffer has been disproven? This should be good.

AZDuck

Still better than Mike's source.

sarktastic said:

Moody's? isn't that the ratings service that would take pooled mortgage loans originated on 100% LTV, made to borrowers with no job, no assets and a Sears Credit Card that's 2 years old with a $1,000 limit... and rated them AAA so they could be purchased by pension funds and as legal reserves by Insurance companies??

AZDuck

PurpleJ said:

AZDuck said:

Grundle, I know we disagree on this, but I'm of the belief that more money sloshing around in the economy is good for everyone. Even paying useless fucks like me a government salary is good because I spend most of it and the money continues to slosh around the economy - paying other useless fucks at the liquor stores and massage parlors.

Spending goes down as income rises, and Laffer has been disproven. Also, the structures established by government are notoriously difficult to dismantle - part of the reason why every tax-cutting Republican administration has left ruinous deficits in their wake at the national level, and Brownback is about to crash Kansas into the fucking mountain.

Laffer has been disproven? This should be good.

probably not citrus