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83% of tax cuts to top 1%
Comments
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That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions. -
What part of this discussion do you disagree with? I'd like to hear your thoughts.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions. -
“Innumerate” means that you don’t understand math, numbers, equations, theorems and derivatives.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
“Enumerate” means that you are providing an ordinal list.
Doog bot has a BS in economics. -
I definitely worry about my grammar and spelling on this cite. I definitely do.CirrhosisDawg said:
“Innumerate” means that you don’t understand math, numbers, equations, theorems and derivatives.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
“Enumerate” means that you are providing an ordinal list.
Doog bot has a BS in economics. -
Innumerate is a typo for enumerate? Maybe Freudian psychology is your thing.UW_Doog_Bot said:
I definitely worry about my grammar and spelling on this cite. I definitely do.CirrhosisDawg said:
“Innumerate” means that you don’t understand math, numbers, equations, theorems and derivatives.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
“Enumerate” means that you are providing an ordinal list.
Doog bot has a BS in economics. -
Looks like the simple minded do2001400ex said:
It's actually amazing how simple that is. And people still don't understand it.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
We need tax cuts for the 50% who pay no fed income tax
Fucking brilliant -
Well for one, as I said, you are wrong by the definition you invoked.2001400ex said:
What part of this discussion do you disagree with? I'd like to hear your thoughts.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
But more directly, holding stock and holding cash in a bank are actually forms of investment. Banks use the money as reserves which allow them to loan the money out for investments on such things as "new" businesses or say, home mortgages. Holding stock, similarly, costs money to buy, which when bought allows a company to fund further capital investments or other expenses.
And even barring all of that, storing assets, which is what you are attempting to use as an example I assume, creates a store of value as a future option, which has economic value. Keynesians will even tell you that breaking a window or building bridges to nowhere have economic value since that money is cycled back into the economy. I would argue that's inefficient but as C-dawg likes to point out, I only have a BS
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Except for when you were talking about them.UWhuskytskeet said:
I'm not talking about them.SFGbob said:
How do you cut taxes for people who already pay no income taxes and get far more out in benefits than they pay in?UWhuskytskeet said:
Great, and which has a massively larger net-economic impact, tax cuts for the rich or tax cuts for the poor?SFGbob said:
Can you honestly address a question you're asked? Unless the rich are putting their tax money in a mattress they are investing it even if they are saving it.UWhuskytskeet said:
Can you have a discussion without feigning ignorance?SFGbob said:
How do they save it? Bury it in their backyards?UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
Great, and which has a massively larger net-economic impact, tax cuts for the rich or tax cuts for the poor?
Is there some subgroup of poor people that I'm unaware of that do pay a lot of taxes? -
2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy.
I believe I just witnessed a goal post whizzing by at 100mph.
Hondo why do you feel the government is better qualified to determine where and how people should invest and spend their own money rather than the people who actually earned it? -
Do you mean to tell me that Hondo's claim that he knows people with money therefore he knows economics isn't enough to persuade you?UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
-
Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy -
But how does that help working class Americans?!RaceBannon said:Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy -
meanwhile the socialists give gigantic tax cuts to the richest:
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/cuomo-de-blasio-blasted-by-democrats-and-nyc-residents-over-incentive-laden-deal-to-bring-amazon-to-big-apple -
I'm not hearing the OUTRAGE from the usual suspects who like to complain about corporate welfare.Sledog said:meanwhile the socialists give gigantic tax cuts to the richest:
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/cuomo-de-blasio-blasted-by-democrats-and-nyc-residents-over-incentive-laden-deal-to-bring-amazon-to-big-apple -
You mean the mass fraudalent foreclosures perpetrated by Blackstone and others via robosigning and rocket dockets?RaceBannon said:Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy -
I paid my mortgage for 25 years and no one stole my houseHardlyClothed said:
You mean the mass fraudalent foreclosures perpetrated by Blackstone and others via robosigning and rocket dockets?RaceBannon said:Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy
Funny how that works
I met a lot of these folks as they were being removed. Gave a lot of them checks from Blackstone
Most of them would tell you they fucked up. It happens -
Sure some of them were legitimately foreclosed on, but hundreds of thousands if not millions of homeowners were victims of predatory foreclosures where banks used fraudulent paperwork and courts looked the other way.RaceBannon said:
I paid my mortgage for 25 years and no one stole my houseHardlyClothed said:
You mean the mass fraudalent foreclosures perpetrated by Blackstone and others via robosigning and rocket dockets?RaceBannon said:Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy
Funny how that works
I met a lot of these folks as they were being removed. Gave a lot of them checks from Blackstone
Most of them would tell you they fucked up. It happens -
I can agree with some of that. If they are buying newly issued stock of a corporation, you are correct. But companies are buying back stock right now, not issuing new shares. Same with banks, they need to find places to lend money right now.. So new cash into a bank, in the current economy, isn't helping banks lend.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Well for one, as I said, you are wrong by the definition you invoked.2001400ex said:
What part of this discussion do you disagree with? I'd like to hear your thoughts.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
But more directly, holding stock and holding cash in a bank are actually forms of investment. Banks use the money as reserves which allow them to loan the money out for investments on such things as "new" businesses or say, home mortgages. Holding stock, similarly, costs money to buy, which when bought allows a company to fund further capital investments or other expenses.
And even barring all of that, storing assets, which is what you are attempting to use as an example I assume, creates a store of value as a future option, which has economic value. Keynesians will even tell you that breaking a window or building bridges to nowhere have economic value since that money is cycled back into the economy. I would argue that's inefficient but as C-dawg likes to point out, I only have a BS
You are actually helping me make my point. If we were in a recession, I totally agree with you. But we aren't, so the influx of money to the wealthy isn't spurring investment. Labor participation rate is basically unchanged and unemployment is just a fraction lower. -
Except that stock buy backs go where exactly? It's not enough to act that money gets dead ended somewhere. That's almost never the case. And as I pointed out, macroeconomics will literally tell you that even if it does that it doesn't matter. Buy bullets and shoot them into the ocean. You've still paid an ammunition supplier.2001400ex said:
I can agree with some of that. If they are buying newly issued stock of a corporation, you are correct. But companies are buying back stock right now, not issuing new shares. Same with banks, they need to find places to lend money right now.. So new cash into a bank, in the current economy, isn't helping banks lend.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Well for one, as I said, you are wrong by the definition you invoked.2001400ex said:
What part of this discussion do you disagree with? I'd like to hear your thoughts.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
But more directly, holding stock and holding cash in a bank are actually forms of investment. Banks use the money as reserves which allow them to loan the money out for investments on such things as "new" businesses or say, home mortgages. Holding stock, similarly, costs money to buy, which when bought allows a company to fund further capital investments or other expenses.
And even barring all of that, storing assets, which is what you are attempting to use as an example I assume, creates a store of value as a future option, which has economic value. Keynesians will even tell you that breaking a window or building bridges to nowhere have economic value since that money is cycled back into the economy. I would argue that's inefficient but as C-dawg likes to point out, I only have a BS
You are actually helping me make my point. If we were in a recession, I totally agree with you. But we aren't, so the influx of money to the wealthy isn't spurring investment. Labor participation rate is basically unchanged and unemployment is just a fraction lower.
Sure, banks are currently flush with cash, there is an imbalance, they will find places to invest though. Simply because they currently have more deposits doesn't mean that they will keep a higher reserve % from now on. I can tell you anecdotally that our industry is booming with capital investment which is good for PM's like me.
Also, the fed is raising rates, which is a whole nother' conversation. -
Urban legendHardlyClothed said:
Sure some of them were legitimately foreclosed on, but hundreds of thousands if not millions of homeowners were victims of predatory foreclosures where banks used fraudulent paperwork and courts looked the other way.RaceBannon said:
I paid my mortgage for 25 years and no one stole my houseHardlyClothed said:
You mean the mass fraudalent foreclosures perpetrated by Blackstone and others via robosigning and rocket dockets?RaceBannon said:Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy
Funny how that works
I met a lot of these folks as they were being removed. Gave a lot of them checks from Blackstone
Most of them would tell you they fucked up. It happens -
Yes and I don't agree with raising interest rates in this market. In the 70s and early 80s, we raised rates very high but inflation was ridiculously high. In a market like now, inflation is still relatively low, let the free market go.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Except that stock buy backs go where exactly? It's not enough to act that money gets dead ended somewhere. That's almost never the case. And as I pointed out, macroeconomics will literally tell you that even if it does that it doesn't matter. Buy bullets and shoot them into the ocean. You've still paid an ammunition supplier.2001400ex said:
I can agree with some of that. If they are buying newly issued stock of a corporation, you are correct. But companies are buying back stock right now, not issuing new shares. Same with banks, they need to find places to lend money right now.. So new cash into a bank, in the current economy, isn't helping banks lend.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Well for one, as I said, you are wrong by the definition you invoked.2001400ex said:
What part of this discussion do you disagree with? I'd like to hear your thoughts.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
But more directly, holding stock and holding cash in a bank are actually forms of investment. Banks use the money as reserves which allow them to loan the money out for investments on such things as "new" businesses or say, home mortgages. Holding stock, similarly, costs money to buy, which when bought allows a company to fund further capital investments or other expenses.
And even barring all of that, storing assets, which is what you are attempting to use as an example I assume, creates a store of value as a future option, which has economic value. Keynesians will even tell you that breaking a window or building bridges to nowhere have economic value since that money is cycled back into the economy. I would argue that's inefficient but as C-dawg likes to point out, I only have a BS
You are actually helping me make my point. If we were in a recession, I totally agree with you. But we aren't, so the influx of money to the wealthy isn't spurring investment. Labor participation rate is basically unchanged and unemployment is just a fraction lower.
Sure, banks are currently flush with cash, there is an imbalance, they will find places to invest though. Simply because they currently have more deposits doesn't mean that they will keep a higher reserve % from now on. I can tell you anecdotally that our industry is booming with capital investment which is good for PM's like me.
Also, the fed is raising rates, which is a whole nother' conversation.
I've argued this, but the actual trigger of the 08 recession was rates that were raised too quickly. I don't want to rehash the recession and all the varying reasons it happened. But it might not have been as bad if rates didn't go from zero to 6% (or whatever the fed raised it to). Same now, it seems the fed had used interest rates too much to curb inflation but then it gets to a point where rates are too high and a recession gets triggered. Let the country grow at 2-4% healthy for decades. Stop trying to manipulate the economy with interest.
To get back to our point. The wealthy buying stock on the open market is delaying the tax burden. They get gains when they sell it. Which, like I said, doesn't help the economy as it sits now. Same with banks, of course they use some of the money. But when they are strapped for cash and their capitalization rates are too high, then they use every penny and you can see benefits. That's not the case right now, I know a few banks that are chasing deals cause they need to lend money. -
“Foaming the runway” and the fecklessness of HAMP is basic history of the ‘08 crisis. Casting the foreclosure vultures as the good guys is a joke.RaceBannon said:
Urban legendHardlyClothed said:
Sure some of them were legitimately foreclosed on, but hundreds of thousands if not millions of homeowners were victims of predatory foreclosures where banks used fraudulent paperwork and courts looked the other way.RaceBannon said:
I paid my mortgage for 25 years and no one stole my houseHardlyClothed said:
You mean the mass fraudalent foreclosures perpetrated by Blackstone and others via robosigning and rocket dockets?RaceBannon said:Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy
Funny how that works
I met a lot of these folks as they were being removed. Gave a lot of them checks from Blackstone
Most of them would tell you they fucked up. It happens -
I was giving an illustration of an investment. I assign no good or evil to financial transactionsHardlyClothed said:
“Foaming the runway” and the fecklessness of HAMP is basic history of the ‘08 crisis. Casting the foreclosure vultures as the good guys is a joke.RaceBannon said:
Urban legendHardlyClothed said:
Sure some of them were legitimately foreclosed on, but hundreds of thousands if not millions of homeowners were victims of predatory foreclosures where banks used fraudulent paperwork and courts looked the other way.RaceBannon said:
I paid my mortgage for 25 years and no one stole my houseHardlyClothed said:
You mean the mass fraudalent foreclosures perpetrated by Blackstone and others via robosigning and rocket dockets?RaceBannon said:Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy
Funny how that works
I met a lot of these folks as they were being removed. Gave a lot of them checks from Blackstone
Most of them would tell you they fucked up. It happens
If you don't pay out the door you go is a foundation of life. Its not some "evil" conspiracy -
War Off:RaceBannon said:
I paid my mortgage for 25 years and no one stole my houseHardlyClothed said:
You mean the mass fraudalent foreclosures perpetrated by Blackstone and others via robosigning and rocket dockets?RaceBannon said:Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy
Funny how that works
I met a lot of these folks as they were being removed. Gave a lot of them checks from Blackstone
Most of them would tell you they fucked up. It happens
There have been several market opportunities to justify a flip to 15-year money. What were you doing?
War Back On:
Sucker. -
Bought in 87 for 90K. Ramped it up to 200K for fun and enjoyment as the interest dropped from 11% to under 6. Didn't care about a 15 year. Sold for 360 in 2011creepycoug said:
War Off:RaceBannon said:
I paid my mortgage for 25 years and no one stole my houseHardlyClothed said:
You mean the mass fraudalent foreclosures perpetrated by Blackstone and others via robosigning and rocket dockets?RaceBannon said:Blackstone put a 1 billion dollar fund together to buy foreclosures across America. Every house they bought employed people to inspect and buy at the auction or a realtor wrote the offer for the short sale
Every house got remodeled, more jobs. People who lost their homes rent these homes. Property managers get paid
We are close to the 8 year hold where they sell off the assets - lots of commissions.
Just one small example of what billion dollar investments bring back to the economy
Funny how that works
I met a lot of these folks as they were being removed. Gave a lot of them checks from Blackstone
Most of them would tell you they fucked up. It happens
There have been several market opportunities to justify a flip to 15-year money. What were you doing?
War Back On:
Sucker.
Suck that -
I somewhat agree though I would say that rates were held to low for too long which is why we had bubbles and why raising rates suddenly popped them. People chasing margins bc there are none. Slower, proactive raising of rates is a better policy. I hope the fed learned their lesson. Greenspan did at least. It kind of seems premature but really the economy is humming and you'd rather raise rates and have somewhere to go than wait for the next recession and then have nowhere to go.2001400ex said:
Yes and I don't agree with raising interest rates in this market. In the 70s and early 80s, we raised rates very high but inflation was ridiculously high. In a market like now, inflation is still relatively low, let the free market go.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Except that stock buy backs go where exactly? It's not enough to act that money gets dead ended somewhere. That's almost never the case. And as I pointed out, macroeconomics will literally tell you that even if it does that it doesn't matter. Buy bullets and shoot them into the ocean. You've still paid an ammunition supplier.2001400ex said:
I can agree with some of that. If they are buying newly issued stock of a corporation, you are correct. But companies are buying back stock right now, not issuing new shares. Same with banks, they need to find places to lend money right now.. So new cash into a bank, in the current economy, isn't helping banks lend.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Well for one, as I said, you are wrong by the definition you invoked.2001400ex said:
What part of this discussion do you disagree with? I'd like to hear your thoughts.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
But more directly, holding stock and holding cash in a bank are actually forms of investment. Banks use the money as reserves which allow them to loan the money out for investments on such things as "new" businesses or say, home mortgages. Holding stock, similarly, costs money to buy, which when bought allows a company to fund further capital investments or other expenses.
And even barring all of that, storing assets, which is what you are attempting to use as an example I assume, creates a store of value as a future option, which has economic value. Keynesians will even tell you that breaking a window or building bridges to nowhere have economic value since that money is cycled back into the economy. I would argue that's inefficient but as C-dawg likes to point out, I only have a BS
You are actually helping me make my point. If we were in a recession, I totally agree with you. But we aren't, so the influx of money to the wealthy isn't spurring investment. Labor participation rate is basically unchanged and unemployment is just a fraction lower.
Sure, banks are currently flush with cash, there is an imbalance, they will find places to invest though. Simply because they currently have more deposits doesn't mean that they will keep a higher reserve % from now on. I can tell you anecdotally that our industry is booming with capital investment which is good for PM's like me.
Also, the fed is raising rates, which is a whole nother' conversation.
I've argued this, but the actual trigger of the 08 recession was rates that were raised too quickly. I don't want to rehash the recession and all the varying reasons it happened. But it might not have been as bad if rates didn't go from zero to 6% (or whatever the fed raised it to). Same now, it seems the fed had used interest rates too much to curb inflation but then it gets to a point where rates are too high and a recession gets triggered. Let the country grow at 2-4% healthy for decades. Stop trying to manipulate the economy with interest.
To get back to our point. The wealthy buying stock on the open market is delaying the tax burden. They get gains when they sell it. Which, like I said, doesn't help the economy as it sits now. Same with banks, of course they use some of the money. But when they are strapped for cash and their capitalization rates are too high, then they use every penny and you can see benefits. That's not the case right now, I know a few banks that are chasing deals cause they need to lend money.
I'm not a tax expert so I'll differ to you on the accounting haught talk but still, by economic definition, it will be invested and it will have a multiplier effect wherever the cash ends up going. The only argument FOR having the government or the poor spend that money instead is a velocity of money argument which is where you're headed even if you don't have the notion of it. Money spent by the poor goes out quickly into the economy where as investment, by it's nature, is slower. This means that unless you need an injection of economic activity, which we don't right now, money is better put into investment for long term growth and gains. That runs counter to your argument and point. -
UW_Doog_Bot said:
Long story short? I wouldn't subscribe to any specific model as gospel as any good scientist wouldn't. That said,UWhuskytskeet said:
Which theory do you subscribe to?UW_Doog_Bot said:
Well if you are still holding onto Keynesian economics then you've been pretty fucking asleep for the last ten years...or last 100 for that matter. I love that you two are making fun of people for being economically illiterate while showing off your ignorance of the subject.UWhuskytskeet said:
Supply-side economics will definitely work this time!greenblood said:And it should go to them. The top 1% pay 40% of the country’s taxes. While the bottom 90% pay only 29%. But yeah, let’s give the bottom 90% more breaks. Dumbfuck Hondo at it again.
I think the Keynesian(i.e. neo, or neo synthesis) is a reasonable facsimile for measuring the economy though even the (neo)Keynesians will be happy to tell you all of the issues that various models have. I think it does a poor job of prediction when geared towards political policy bc the politicians tend to listen to the scientists they want to hear and not to a balanced and inclusive panel.
Neoclassical is probably the closest fit but I have asterisks next to assumptions it makes. Chief among them the assumption of rationality. That's a topic I could spend 10,000 words discussing. I have some friends doing fascinating stuff with behavioral economics and Neuroeconomics. Some of which can beg the question of the definition of a "rational agent" which could lead back to a wider or deeper definition which could be included in the neoclassical model.
The hilarious original point being though, Hondo is wrong by the very model he attempts to invoke all while attempting to mock other people's ignorance. HondoFS to the max.
-
Yes I'm referring to velocity of money. Here's the thing, I agree there is a long term benefit. There no argument that a tax cut hurts anything (other than the federal deficit). And yes people keeping more of their money is a positive things, as long as it doesn't interrupt the government services that enhance our lives. The same people that argue that we should have a very minimal federal government would also take for granted our public schools, fire and police protection, etc.UW_Doog_Bot said:
I somewhat agree though I would say that rates were held to low for too long which is why we had bubbles and why raising rates suddenly popped them. People chasing margins bc there are none. Slower, proactive raising of rates is a better policy. I hope the fed learned their lesson. Greenspan did at least. It kind of seems premature but really the economy is humming and you'd rather raise rates and have somewhere to go than wait for the next recession and then have nowhere to go.2001400ex said:
Yes and I don't agree with raising interest rates in this market. In the 70s and early 80s, we raised rates very high but inflation was ridiculously high. In a market like now, inflation is still relatively low, let the free market go.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Except that stock buy backs go where exactly? It's not enough to act that money gets dead ended somewhere. That's almost never the case. And as I pointed out, macroeconomics will literally tell you that even if it does that it doesn't matter. Buy bullets and shoot them into the ocean. You've still paid an ammunition supplier.2001400ex said:
I can agree with some of that. If they are buying newly issued stock of a corporation, you are correct. But companies are buying back stock right now, not issuing new shares. Same with banks, they need to find places to lend money right now.. So new cash into a bank, in the current economy, isn't helping banks lend.UW_Doog_Bot said:
Well for one, as I said, you are wrong by the definition you invoked.2001400ex said:
What part of this discussion do you disagree with? I'd like to hear your thoughts.UW_Doog_Bot said:
That's your opinion and it's cute. Economists disagree and for good reasons. I can innumerate them if you'll bother to listen. Either way, I'd suggest you don't invoke your knowledge of Economics in future discussions.2001400ex said:
Holding positions in stock or cash in a back is not adding a significant resource to the economy. Now if they invest it in New businesses, then of course it's coming back into the economy. Or if they are spending it on toys. But that's not what happened, there's not one wealthy person who stopped and said "I have 2.2 billion instead of 2.1 billion in the bank because of the tax cut so now I'm going to start this new business."UW_Doog_Bot said:
Lol at this. Rich people don't have giant scrooge McDuck vaults of gold coins(well maybe the Saudis do). They invest their money. Which is very arguably a better use of resources for an economy long term than short term consumables that the poor use. Either way, it is cycled into the economy though, which defeats your point.UWhuskytskeet said:
They save it. Poor spend it. Pretty fucking simple actually.SFGbob said:
It's clear you were talking out your ass and now can't back up your mouth. What do the rich do with their money that keeps it out of the economy Hondo?2001400ex said:It's clear you've never had money or known anyone with money.
And even if they did have a vault of gold coins it would still be a form of investment as those assets don't come from thin air.
I'd suggest that you guys stop invoking your superior knowledge of economics as validation for your positions.
But more directly, holding stock and holding cash in a bank are actually forms of investment. Banks use the money as reserves which allow them to loan the money out for investments on such things as "new" businesses or say, home mortgages. Holding stock, similarly, costs money to buy, which when bought allows a company to fund further capital investments or other expenses.
And even barring all of that, storing assets, which is what you are attempting to use as an example I assume, creates a store of value as a future option, which has economic value. Keynesians will even tell you that breaking a window or building bridges to nowhere have economic value since that money is cycled back into the economy. I would argue that's inefficient but as C-dawg likes to point out, I only have a BS
You are actually helping me make my point. If we were in a recession, I totally agree with you. But we aren't, so the influx of money to the wealthy isn't spurring investment. Labor participation rate is basically unchanged and unemployment is just a fraction lower.
Sure, banks are currently flush with cash, there is an imbalance, they will find places to invest though. Simply because they currently have more deposits doesn't mean that they will keep a higher reserve % from now on. I can tell you anecdotally that our industry is booming with capital investment which is good for PM's like me.
Also, the fed is raising rates, which is a whole nother' conversation.
I've argued this, but the actual trigger of the 08 recession was rates that were raised too quickly. I don't want to rehash the recession and all the varying reasons it happened. But it might not have been as bad if rates didn't go from zero to 6% (or whatever the fed raised it to). Same now, it seems the fed had used interest rates too much to curb inflation but then it gets to a point where rates are too high and a recession gets triggered. Let the country grow at 2-4% healthy for decades. Stop trying to manipulate the economy with interest.
To get back to our point. The wealthy buying stock on the open market is delaying the tax burden. They get gains when they sell it. Which, like I said, doesn't help the economy as it sits now. Same with banks, of course they use some of the money. But when they are strapped for cash and their capitalization rates are too high, then they use every penny and you can see benefits. That's not the case right now, I know a few banks that are chasing deals cause they need to lend money.
I'm not a tax expert so I'll differ to you on the accounting haught talk but still, by economic definition, it will be invested and it will have a multiplier effect wherever the cash ends up going. The only argument FOR having the government or the poor spend that money instead is a velocity of money argument which is where you're headed even if you don't have the notion of it. Money spent by the poor goes out quickly into the economy where as investment, by it's nature, is slower. This means that unless you need an injection of economic activity, which we don't right now, money is better put into investment for long term growth and gains. That runs counter to your argument and point.
However, the tax bill was sold as increasing jobs in the short term. And giving the taxes too the wealthy, in a good economy, the money doesn't come back into the system quick enough to have a dramatic effect on employment in the short term. If we were in a bad economy, the answer is different. And historically we have cut taxes as government stimulus in a bad economy. That works great when the top rate is 90% or 70% (the top rate when Reagan took over). There is diminishing returns when the top rate is 39.6% and dropping that to 37% that Trump did, is negligible and doesn't have a noticeable difference in the economy. -
The same people that argue that we should have a very minimal federal government would also take for granted our public schools, fire and police protection, etc.
All things that are the responsibility of the state and local government and not the Federal government. Far from taking those things for granted I recognize that the Federal Government should have little if any role in any of those things. -
STFU. We are having an actual discussion here.SFGbob said:The same people that argue that we should have a very minimal federal government would also take for granted our public schools, fire and police protection, etc.
All things that are the responsibility of the state and local government and not the Federal government. Far from taking those things for granted I recognize that the Federal Government should have little if any role in any of those things.
