Thoughts on Basic Income (serious discussion only, plz)
Interesting alternative to the current system of entitlements, with added upside for society as a whole.
What do you economic scholars say?
Comments
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Confiscatory.
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Unsustainable.
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That already exists, it's called a tax refund
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That already exists, it's called a job
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I think the idea of everyone getting something back make sense. But the problem is, the poor only think the should get money from the government. Thus, policies will be put into place to raise taxes as much as the basic income which causes more confusion and middle class Americans getting nothing back.
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Entitlements as they currently exist are unsustainable. And they're not really helping those who are truly poor (~15%).
For the sake of discussion, isn't trying something new better than doing the same old shit? -
A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.
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The idea would be to eliminate all the bullshit. Every entitlement gets eliminated (EIC, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Everyone gets a check, no questions asked.greenblood said:A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.
Unlike welfare, you can still work full time and receive the benefit. This allows those living below the poverty level to afford basic needs (food, shelter). Work is not disincentivized. -
So it's partial but equal socialism? InterestingThomasFremont said:
The idea would be to eliminate all the bullshit. Every entitlement gets eliminated (EIC, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Everyone gets a check, no questions asked.greenblood said:A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.
Unlike welfare, you can still work full time and receive the benefit. This allows those living below the poverty level to afford basic needs (food, shelter). Work is not disincentivized. -
You sure about that?ThomasFremont said:
The idea would be to eliminate all the bullshit. Every entitlement gets eliminated (EIC, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Everyone gets a check, no questions asked.greenblood said:A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.
Unlike welfare, you can still work full time and receive the benefit. This allows those living below the poverty level to afford basic needs (food, shelter). Work is not disincentivized. -
When everyone in Alaska got oil checks, people still worked.
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Which was never more than 10% of the federal poverty line. Completely different order of magnitude.TierbsHsotBoobs said:When everyone in Alaska got oil checks, people still worked.
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Also a fair poont.GrundleStiltzkin said:
Which was never more than 10% of the federal poverty line. Completely different order of magnitude.TierbsHsotBoobs said:When everyone in Alaska got oil checks, people still worked.
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They should give companies tax incentives for hiring American citizens.
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In theory, yes. Are you gonna stop working because you get $12k/year guaranteed? I'm not.GrundleStiltzkin said:
You sure about that?ThomasFremont said:
The idea would be to eliminate all the bullshit. Every entitlement gets eliminated (EIC, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Everyone gets a check, no questions asked.greenblood said:A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.
Unlike welfare, you can still work full time and receive the benefit. This allows those living below the poverty level to afford basic needs (food, shelter). Work is not disincentivized.
The test sample showed that two groups worked less as a result of this: new mothers and students.
Not claiming it is a magic bullet solution, just think it might be a better alternative to the current system.
Poor people create a disproportionate amount of the crime in this country. And their numbers are growing. Automation and technological advances are only going to eliminate low level jobs, not create them. Do we sit around until they riot (more than they already are), or try to fix a broken system?
Unless we want to round up all the dirty gypsies and eliminate them, we gotta try something. -
Pensions, SocialSecurity, senior healthcare, senior care, safety of principal of your savings, food, energy, internet, cell phones, transportation.
All are entitlements -
I care about poor people
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The minimum wage used to be significantly higher adjusted for inflation. I was talking to an older woman a few years ago and she said you could actually live on it. Another example: My dad said he worked construction in the 50s (yeah, he's Tailgater old, but usually not as senile, but sometimes a little Puppyesque on the phone when the pills get weird). He said he could pay his bills with one week's pay and save the other week's. Construction usually pays quite a bit more than min wage, especially there, but you get the idea.
The min. wage is much higher in western Europe, Australia, Canaduh etc. (Hi Dabone!). I would go that route before trying any universal basic income route. -
I didn't take the time to read the entire wiki. I certainly think there should be a social safety net for the less fortunate (blind, quadraplegic, lower half blown off in a war, orphan, etc) -- but I think there should be work camps for those that can work -- but just can't find it for some reason (on drugs, mental issue, laziness, no skills, etc). At the very least -- those that are able bodied -- can work on trail crews, plant trees, sweep streets, dig new floatplane harbors, etc.
I also think that the authorities should sweep the streets of panhandlers -- and give them a choice -- go to a work camp -- join the military -- join some other kind of social program that makes them work (earth corps, etc)-- or go home.
I feel compassion for the homeless -- but I don't think that just giving the money is any fix. Many of them will just blow it on drugs -- or scout.com subscriptions.
In conclusion -- help the less fortunate -- but a minimum salary isn't the way. -
Its an interesting idea b/c most of the bureaucracy surrounding social welfare is ensuring that the recipient is eligible for the benefit/services.
I'd be curious to see a jurisdiction try something like this, just to see what pops out -
I didn't know you had a childbirth porn fetish.AZDuck said:Its an interesting idea b/c most of the bureaucracy surrounding social welfare is ensuring that the recipient is eligible for the benefit/services.
I'd be curious to see a jurisdiction try something like this, just to see what pops out -
isitnormal.com/story/i-have-a-childbirth-fetisham-i-the-only-one-56939/TierbsHsotBoobs said:
I didn't know you had a childbirth porn fetish.AZDuck said:Its an interesting idea b/c most of the bureaucracy surrounding social welfare is ensuring that the recipient is eligible for the benefit/services.
I'd be curious to see a jurisdiction try something like this, just to see what pops out
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I SAID NO RACIST CRAP!PurpleJ said:They should give companies tax incentives for hiring American citizens.
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Can't we get back to talking about child birth fetishes?PurpleThrobber said:
I SAID NO RACIST CRAP!PurpleJ said:They should give companies tax incentives for hiring American citizens.
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I like the idea of putting those out of work to good purpose. Especially if it relates to fixing/improving our infrastructure.OZONE said:I didn't take the time to read the entire wiki. I certainly think there should be a social safety net for the less fortunate (blind, quadraplegic, lower half blown off in a war, orphan, etc) -- but I think there should be work camps for those that can work -- but just can't find it for some reason (on drugs, mental issue, laziness, no skills, etc). At the very least -- those that are able bodied -- can work on trail crews, plant trees, sweep streets, dig new floatplane harbors, etc.
I also think that the authorities should sweep the streets of panhandlers -- and give them a choice -- go to a work camp -- join the military -- join some other kind of social program that makes them work (earth corps, etc)-- or go home.
I feel compassion for the homeless -- but I don't think that just giving the money is any fix. Many of them will just blow it on drugs -- or scout.com subscriptions.
In conclusion -- help the less fortunate -- but a minimum salary isn't the way.
However, I disagree that the money would be "wasted on drugs" by "many of them." Sure, some will do that, but so what? They'll die. They were always gonna die that way. If anything, the extra money will hurry that process along. Fuck them. Darwin shit. Cull the herd.
The vast majority would probably be glad for basic needs like food and shelter. Once those needs are secured, the options for bigger and better things become much more realistic. Bare minimum: they don't have to knock over a 7-1, break into our homes, or mug people on the street to get enough money to survive.
I have compassion for the homeless, sure. But I am mostly concerned with sustaining our society going forward. I am dead serious about riots if jobs keep shrinking while the population keeps growing. We should learn from the mistakes of Cercei Lannister...even the rich and powerful can be brought down by the mob of unwashed peasants if they are desperate and angry enough.
Man, this is some good shit...
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I get about $30k annually for military retirement that started at age 39. It's a nice a chunk of change and I'm still fucking working.ThomasFremont said:
In theory, yes. Are you gonna stop working because you get $12k/year guaranteed? I'm not.GrundleStiltzkin said:
You sure about that?ThomasFremont said:
The idea would be to eliminate all the bullshit. Every entitlement gets eliminated (EIC, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Everyone gets a check, no questions asked.greenblood said:A solution would be to make welfare like unemployment (temporary), unless you have a "real" disability. If you have paralysis, old age, blind, extreme mental disorders, etc. what needs to stop is lazy cry babies getting SSI for shit like anxiety. I think 90% of middle America suffers from that. Another term is working 45-50 hours a week, making just enough to feed your kids and pay bills. The other "disorder" is obesity. When has that become a disorder? If you're fat it should be more of an incentive to get a job, maybe one that requires some form of standing.
Unlike welfare, you can still work full time and receive the benefit. This allows those living below the poverty level to afford basic needs (food, shelter). Work is not disincentivized.
The test sample showed that two groups worked less as a result of this: new mothers and students.
Not claiming it is a magic bullet solution, just think it might be a better alternative to the current system.
Poor people create a disproportionate amount of the crime in this country. And their numbers are growing. Automation and technological advances are only going to eliminate low level jobs, not create them. Do we sit around until they riot (more than they already are), or try to fix a broken system?
Unless we want to round up all the dirty gypsies and eliminate them, we gotta try something.
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Most (>81%) criminals aren't committing crimes just to survive, they're committing crimes to get money to get more heroin.ThomasFremont said:
I like the idea of putting those out of work to good purpose. Especially if it relates to fixing/improving our infrastructure.OZONE said:I didn't take the time to read the entire wiki. I certainly think there should be a social safety net for the less fortunate (blind, quadraplegic, lower half blown off in a war, orphan, etc) -- but I think there should be work camps for those that can work -- but just can't find it for some reason (on drugs, mental issue, laziness, no skills, etc). At the very least -- those that are able bodied -- can work on trail crews, plant trees, sweep streets, dig new floatplane harbors, etc.
I also think that the authorities should sweep the streets of panhandlers -- and give them a choice -- go to a work camp -- join the military -- join some other kind of social program that makes them work (earth corps, etc)-- or go home.
I feel compassion for the homeless -- but I don't think that just giving the money is any fix. Many of them will just blow it on drugs -- or scout.com subscriptions.
In conclusion -- help the less fortunate -- but a minimum salary isn't the way.
However, I disagree that the money would be "wasted on drugs" by "many of them." Sure, some will do that, but so what? They'll die. They were always gonna die that way. If anything, the extra money will hurry that process along. Fuck them. Darwin shit. Cull the herd.
The vast majority would probably be glad for basic needs like food and shelter. Once those needs are secured, the options for bigger and better things become much more realistic. Bare minimum: they don't have to knock over a 7-1, break into our homes, or mug people on the street to get enough money to survive.
I have compassion for the homeless, sure. But I am mostly concerned with sustaining our society going forward. I am dead serious about riots if jobs keep shrinking while the population keeps growing. We should learn from the mistakes of Cercei Lannister...even the rich and powerful can be brought down by the mob of unwashed peasants if they are desperate and angry enough.
Man, this is some good shit... -
The so what part is -- if they are able -- make them work. The money for their basic salary has to come from somewhere -- make them earn/create that money -- rather than just making them a suck on the taxpayers.ThomasFremont said:
However, I disagree that the money would be "wasted on drugs" by "many of them." Sure, some will do that, but so what? They'll die. They were always gonna die that way. If anything, the extra money will hurry that process along. Fuck them. Darwin shit. Cull the herd.
We are incentivizing the wrong evolutionary behavior if we pay able bodied people to not work. This is an area where I agree with conservatives. (Its different if they have a handicap that prevents them from working). -
A big part of the "jobs shrinking but population grow" problem is that there are jobs out there, but the economy has changed and different skills are now required. Still there is a large percentage of people, especially older people, that refuse to learn new skills to get these jobs. For example, my company just hired a guy with no degree to be a programmer. All he did was learn 1 or 2 languages in his free time, and now he works with us (with no financial aid to pay back either). But the fact of the matter is that a ton of people don't want to do a computer-intensive jobs; they miss their old cushy gigs where they didn't have to learn anything and could support their family all the same. Hell, they don't even want to take the time to look up what skills companies are even hiring for nowadays. That is just sad, and 100% an American problem.
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I'm surprised that I am surprised that a commie like Ozone isn't aware of the huge possibility of abuse in flooding the market with cheap forced labor. Wait, forced labor is a communist thing.
Let's see, give an evil corporation the choice between paying full wages and benefits or having the state send a check and what will they choose? We already have prison labor at 6 cents an hour competing. The State of Washington schools buy their furniture from a prison shop in Shelton. That couldn't affect jobs.
I do agree that sending people checks is far more efficient and will help them more that paying all the money to a massive bureaucracy like we have now that squeezes out a few cents on the dollar to people who really need the help. I would have no problem at all with taxes going more directly to the needy.
I don't think people grow up dreaming of of living in Section 8 housing and getting a meager check every month as a great way of life. I do think people grow up and don't see much of an alternative, hence the cycle of despair that we aren't fixing no matter how much money we throw at it.
We need more jobs not less. The state can raise the minimum wage to 25 dollars an hour which is the minimum to live in today's world, but if there isn't anyone to pay it we're all just pissing in the wind. And there ain't nothing like a friend who can tell you you are just pissing in the wind.
We do need new ideas and this thread is a good example of the kind of discussion our fucked up and incompetent politicians should be having but won't.
Jobs jobs jobs
