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What ISIS Really Wants
CokeGreaterThanPepsi
Member Posts: 7,646
in Tug Tavern
Read this TL;DR (actually did read) artcile yesterday (link at bottom); it is the best piece I have read on ISIS and really explained a lot and also talks about how the US has fucked up in the past year or so in figuring out what ISIS is all about.
TL;DR cliffnote version of article:
-ISIS IS Islamic. Basically they want to go back to medieval Islamic times and are living as such.
-Their leader has only really talked one time in public, when he declared himself the Caliphate last summer. Basically, every Muslim is supposed to follow him and he is the commander of all Muslims (Or should be according to Islamic law). THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of Muslims have left their lives behind to go live under his rule and territory.
-ISIS NEEDS territory, if they don't have territory it will crumble because the Caliphate will become illegitimate.
-ISIS and their followers, in accordance with Islamic laws and such can not be involved in political processes as their is only one true God. So don't bother trying to get them to negotiate.
-Basically peace is impossible for them because if they aren't trying to expand their territory the Caliphate is illegitimate in their eyes.
-Genocide is required. Basically they want everyone that isn't them to be murdered or to be enslaved. Christians would become slaves as long as they pay a tax to them; if they deny the tax they will be beheaded or crucified.
-They are surrounded by Muslims, but ISIS considers most of those Muslims to be living in sin and wants them dead.
-The big one is that they truly believe they are the ones who will play a part in the upcoming Apocalypse. They are bringing those events into motion with everything they do.
-When they beheaded the American Aid worker last year they did so at the grounds (Dabiq an area in Syria) they believe will be the important war between them and "Rome". The reason they always mention Rome is because that is who the Koran says will be the enemy (although Rome can now just be the West).
-ISIS hates Al-Qaeda because they haven't pledged to the Caliphate.
-Beheading, slavery, crucifixion, amputation (for stealing and what not) are all very acceptable to these people; and in fact they are required.
You should read the article, some pretty crazy shit in there. I hope our leaders read it, because clearly they don't understand what ISIS is all about.
theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
TL;DR cliffnote version of article:
-ISIS IS Islamic. Basically they want to go back to medieval Islamic times and are living as such.
-Their leader has only really talked one time in public, when he declared himself the Caliphate last summer. Basically, every Muslim is supposed to follow him and he is the commander of all Muslims (Or should be according to Islamic law). THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of Muslims have left their lives behind to go live under his rule and territory.
-ISIS NEEDS territory, if they don't have territory it will crumble because the Caliphate will become illegitimate.
-ISIS and their followers, in accordance with Islamic laws and such can not be involved in political processes as their is only one true God. So don't bother trying to get them to negotiate.
-Basically peace is impossible for them because if they aren't trying to expand their territory the Caliphate is illegitimate in their eyes.
-Genocide is required. Basically they want everyone that isn't them to be murdered or to be enslaved. Christians would become slaves as long as they pay a tax to them; if they deny the tax they will be beheaded or crucified.
-They are surrounded by Muslims, but ISIS considers most of those Muslims to be living in sin and wants them dead.
-The big one is that they truly believe they are the ones who will play a part in the upcoming Apocalypse. They are bringing those events into motion with everything they do.
-When they beheaded the American Aid worker last year they did so at the grounds (Dabiq an area in Syria) they believe will be the important war between them and "Rome". The reason they always mention Rome is because that is who the Koran says will be the enemy (although Rome can now just be the West).
-ISIS hates Al-Qaeda because they haven't pledged to the Caliphate.
-Beheading, slavery, crucifixion, amputation (for stealing and what not) are all very acceptable to these people; and in fact they are required.
You should read the article, some pretty crazy shit in there. I hope our leaders read it, because clearly they don't understand what ISIS is all about.
theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
Comments
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Sam Harris also plugged this article as the best on the topic of Isis and what they want.
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Yeah but how is the middle east completely fucked?
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MSNBC tells me they just need job opportunities.
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ISIS is fucked up.
And I don't see our existing leadership seeing it as such.
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What would be relatively easy to nix at this point will be delayed until it becomes more of a problem because the West worrying about being PC will delay this until it becomes an issue that can't be ignored
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Tequilla said:
What would be relatively easy to nix at this point will be delayed until it becomes more of a problem because the West worrying about being PC will delay this until
it becomes an issue that can't be ignoreda dirty bomb goes off in London or New York -
I trust Obama
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Agreed Tequila... eventhough it has reached the point of not being ignored most of America is concerned with their next phone upgrade or what lebron is tweeting and what kevin Durant said to diss the media.
What will it take? A beheading on American soil?
Big bad America having to take out the trash that other countries don't want to do. -
Exactly what I said yesterday. If you aren't them then they want you dead. It's something that cannot be reasoned with. It has to be wiped out. Giving them jobs isn't the fucking answer. That was an answer for Iraq and we thoroughly fucked that up.
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I read it all.
Thank you very much for poasting. I found the articulation of the differences between ISIS and Al Qaeda very interesting. I also have a much better concept of what a caliphate is, and why this is a much bigger deal than I realized.
It's going to get ugly. -
Yeah, this is some serious stuff. I also learned a great deal about all of this. Really glad I actually read it (reading is hard).dnc said:I read it all.
Thank you very much for poasting. I found the articulation of the differences between ISIS and Al Qaeda very interesting. I also have a much better concept of what a caliphate is, and why this is a much bigger deal than I realized.
It's going to get ugly. -
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Great article. Thanks.
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You're welcome, actual Duck.AZDuck said:Great article. Thanks.
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Just finished, interesting and completely sobering topic. This has been, is, and will continue to be an unbelievably complex issue that our diluted society will struggle to comprehend.
Case and point
Yet, just over a year ago, Obama told The New Yorker that he considered ISIS to be al-Qaeda’s weaker partner. “If a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,” the president said.
This is the fucking president of the United states, arguably the spokesman for the western world, using an NBA metaphor. -
He must have seen our NBA Hot Talk.brchco12 said:Just finished, interesting and completely sobering topic. This has been, is, and will continue to be an unbelievably complex issue that our diluted society will struggle to comprehend.
Case and point
Yet, just over a year ago, Obama told The New Yorker that he considered ISIS to be al-Qaeda’s weaker partner. “If a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,” the president said.
This is the fucking president of the United states, arguably the spokesman for the western world, using an NBA metaphor.
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For all the pacifists read what the dalia lama has to say about war....he basically says if you go asking for it you might just get it....and tough shit
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Hey come on now ESPN has him on every year for braketology, he loves hoops.PurpleJ said:
He must have seen our NBA Hot Talk.brchco12 said:Just finished, interesting and completely sobering topic. This has been, is, and will continue to be an unbelievably complex issue that our diluted society will struggle to comprehend.
Case and point
Yet, just over a year ago, Obama told The New Yorker that he considered ISIS to be al-Qaeda’s weaker partner. “If a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,” the president said.
This is the fucking president of the United states, arguably the spokesman for the western world, using an NBA metaphor. -
Blacks going to be black.brchco12 said:Just finished, interesting and completely sobering topic. This has been, is, and will continue to be an unbelievably complex issue that our diluted society will struggle to comprehend.
Case and point
Yet, just over a year ago, Obama told The New Yorker that he considered ISIS to be al-Qaeda’s weaker partner. “If a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,” the president said.
This is the fucking president of the United states, arguably the spokesman for the western world, using an NBA metaphor. -
always about the blacks with you people
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After reading this, I am convinced that al-Qaeda is still a bigger threat to America.
But if these ISIS dicks wanna dig in and put up a flag, I say we bomb them back to the stone age that they so desperately crave. -
It was TL, DR even by my standardsCokeGreaterThanPepsi said:
Yeah, this is some serious stuff. I also learned a great deal about all of this. Really glad I actually read it (reading is hard).dnc said:I read it all.
Thank you very much for poasting. I found the articulation of the differences between ISIS and Al Qaeda very interesting. I also have a much better concept of what a caliphate is, and why this is a much bigger deal than I realized.
It's going to get ugly. -
There is some truth to this. It's really going to be a problem in the middle east.ThomasFremont said:After reading this, I am convinced that al-Qaeda is still a bigger threat to America.
But if these ISIS dicks wanna dig in and put up a flag, I say we bomb them back to the stone age that they so desperately crave.
In my ignorant view, let's satisfy all the people that say we mettle too much in worldly affairs and sit this one out for a time. Let France, UK, surrounding middle eastern countries in imminent danger to be invaded handle their own shit. Or, as we like to say, LIPO.
Focus on our own national security and ensuring the safety and prosperity of our own citizens. That beautiful blue body of water that separates us from this shit has never seemed so sweet. The Al Quedas of the world are the one's playing the political terrorism game that affects us much more dangerously. The ISIS archaic shit can be erased with a push of a button.
If ISIS wants to brawl with Al Queda I'm all for it. All the surrounding communities that burned American Flags are going to pray to allah an American brigade comes over the hill to save their ass right before the sword goes through their neck. -
My thoughts exactly.Doogles said:
There is some truth to this. It's really going to be a problem in the middle east.ThomasFremont said:After reading this, I am convinced that al-Qaeda is still a bigger threat to America.
But if these ISIS dicks wanna dig in and put up a flag, I say we bomb them back to the stone age that they so desperately crave.
In my ignorant view, let's satisfy all the people that say we mettle too much in worldly affairs and sit this one out for a time. Let France, UK, surrounding middle eastern countries in imminent danger to be invaded handle their own shit. Or, as we like to say, LIPO.
Focus on our own national security and ensuring the safety and prosperity of our own citizens. That beautiful blue body of water that separates us from this shit has never seemed so sweet. The Al Quedas of the world are the one's playing the political terrorism game that affects us much more dangerously. The ISIS archaic shit can be erased with a push of a button.
If ISIS wants to brawl with Al Queda I'm all for it. All the surrounding communities that burned American Flags are going to pray to allah an American brigade comes over the hill to save their ass right before the sword goes through their neck.
According to the article, al Baghdadi has instructed his forces to deal with the neighboring Muslim countries/people before worrying about the West. Muslim apostates seem to be the greater concern to their ideology.
Let the fucks slaughter each other over the interpretation of a storybook. -
You clearly aren't aware of the fact that history has a tendency to repeat itself in one form or another.Doogles said:
In my ignorant view, let's satisfy all the people that say we mettle too much in worldly affairs and sit this one out for a time. Let France, UK, surrounding middle eastern countries in imminent danger to be invaded handle their own shit. Or, as we like to say, LIPO.ThomasFremont said:After reading this, I am convinced that al-Qaeda is still a bigger threat to America.
But if these ISIS dicks wanna dig in and put up a flag, I say we bomb them back to the stone age that they so desperately crave.
The last even remotely comparable threat that I can think of that has any kind of similar elements is the rise of Hitler to power in Germany in 1933.
The position of Europe was to stand back, try to negotiate, tell Hitler he was a bad person and that he needed a timeout. Hitler smiled, said ok, and then invaded all of them.
The US position at the time was to stay out of it because it wasn't their fight. They only got involved when they had to.
If you don't realize how close Germany was to taking out all of Europe, then I don't know what to tell you. They were an air battle victory away from being able to conquer England in what was a massive upset in the grand scheme of things. They ran into the worst Russian winter since Napoleon tried to invade Russia during their invasion attempt. If you don't think that Hitler wouldn't have used an A-Bomb had he had the ability to do so in 1940 or the winter of 1941/1942, then you have your head in the sand. And don't forget in that situation, that while he had the leading German scientists working on such a bomb, the scientists also did a good job of sabotaging their own work and finding ways to delay their production so that it wasn't available to be used.
In particular the last part, you will not have that type of reality in place when it comes to ISIS. -
I understand your hesitations to play 'wait and see' again, but Hitler's Germany and ISIS is an apples to oranges comparison. It's repeatedly stated ISIS' extremism and to the letter interpretation makes its movements predictable and able to be quashed. ISIS really is more concerned with killing other muslims in their own yard than flying planes into New York.Tequilla said:
You clearly aren't aware of the fact that history has a tendency to repeat itself in one form or another.Doogles said:
In my ignorant view, let's satisfy all the people that say we mettle too much in worldly affairs and sit this one out for a time. Let France, UK, surrounding middle eastern countries in imminent danger to be invaded handle their own shit. Or, as we like to say, LIPO.ThomasFremont said:After reading this, I am convinced that al-Qaeda is still a bigger threat to America.
But if these ISIS dicks wanna dig in and put up a flag, I say we bomb them back to the stone age that they so desperately crave.
The last even remotely comparable threat that I can think of that has any kind of similar elements is the rise of Hitler to power in Germany in 1933.
The position of Europe was to stand back, try to negotiate, tell Hitler he was a bad person and that he needed a timeout. Hitler smiled, said ok, and then invaded all of them.
The US position at the time was to stay out of it because it wasn't their fight. They only got involved when they had to.
If you don't realize how close Germany was to taking out all of Europe, then I don't know what to tell you. They were an air battle victory away from being able to conquer England in what was a massive upset in the grand scheme of things. They ran into the worst Russian winter since Napoleon tried to invade Russia during their invasion attempt. If you don't think that Hitler wouldn't have used an A-Bomb had he had the ability to do so in 1940 or the winter of 1941/1942, then you have your head in the sand. And don't forget in that situation, that while he had the leading German scientists working on such a bomb, the scientists also did a good job of sabotaging their own work and finding ways to delay their production so that it wasn't available to be used.
In particular the last part, you will not have that type of reality in place when it comes to ISIS.
I agree an offshoot variation of ISIS that has more western ambitions is a problematic proposition for America. But ISIS is literally begging us to fight them to fulfill their destiny. We should and will take them out, but they are about to kill a lot of enemies of the west for us. This might come off as cold, because they are committing heinous acts and terrible crimes against humanity daily, but the west has botched our involvement in the region so badly the past 20 years I really feel a hands off approach is the best way to go. Let their atrocities become so self-evident to the Muslim nation there is nothing left to believe in but reform.
Then step in. -
Comparing ISIS to Nazi Germany is like comparing Sark to Don James.Tequilla said:
You clearly aren't aware of the fact that history has a tendency to repeat itself in one form or another.Doogles said:
In my ignorant view, let's satisfy all the people that say we mettle too much in worldly affairs and sit this one out for a time. Let France, UK, surrounding middle eastern countries in imminent danger to be invaded handle their own shit. Or, as we like to say, LIPO.ThomasFremont said:After reading this, I am convinced that al-Qaeda is still a bigger threat to America.
But if these ISIS dicks wanna dig in and put up a flag, I say we bomb them back to the stone age that they so desperately crave.
The last even remotely comparable threat that I can think of that has any kind of similar elements is the rise of Hitler to power in Germany in 1933.
The position of Europe was to stand back, try to negotiate, tell Hitler he was a bad person and that he needed a timeout. Hitler smiled, said ok, and then invaded all of them.
The US position at the time was to stay out of it because it wasn't their fight. They only got involved when they had to.
If you don't realize how close Germany was to taking out all of Europe, then I don't know what to tell you. They were an air battle victory away from being able to conquer England in what was a massive upset in the grand scheme of things. They ran into the worst Russian winter since Napoleon tried to invade Russia during their invasion attempt. If you don't think that Hitler wouldn't have used an A-Bomb had he had the ability to do so in 1940 or the winter of 1941/1942, then you have your head in the sand. And don't forget in that situation, that while he had the leading German scientists working on such a bomb, the scientists also did a good job of sabotaging their own work and finding ways to delay their production so that it wasn't available to be used.
In particular the last part, you will not have that type of reality in place when it comes to ISIS.
I'm not saying DJ was a Nazi, so don't go twisting. -
So you're saying Hitler was a good recruiter and won alot of off season natties and was a couple unfortunate plays away from being undefeated.Tequilla said:
You clearly aren't aware of the fact that history has a tendency to repeat itself in one form or another.Doogles said:
In my ignorant view, let's satisfy all the people that say we mettle too much in worldly affairs and sit this one out for a time. Let France, UK, surrounding middle eastern countries in imminent danger to be invaded handle their own shit. Or, as we like to say, LIPO.ThomasFremont said:After reading this, I am convinced that al-Qaeda is still a bigger threat to America.
But if these ISIS dicks wanna dig in and put up a flag, I say we bomb them back to the stone age that they so desperately crave.
The last even remotely comparable threat that I can think of that has any kind of similar elements is the rise of Hitler to power in Germany in 1933.
The position of Europe was to stand back, try to negotiate, tell Hitler he was a bad person and that he needed a timeout. Hitler smiled, said ok, and then invaded all of them.
The US position at the time was to stay out of it because it wasn't their fight. They only got involved when they had to.
If you don't realize how close Germany was to taking out all of Europe, then I don't know what to tell you. They were an air battle victory away from being able to conquer England in what was a massive upset in the grand scheme of things. They ran into the worst Russian winter since Napoleon tried to invade Russia during their invasion attempt. If you don't think that Hitler wouldn't have used an A-Bomb had he had the ability to do so in 1940 or the winter of 1941/1942, then you have your head in the sand. And don't forget in that situation, that while he had the leading German scientists working on such a bomb, the scientists also did a good job of sabotaging their own work and finding ways to delay their production so that it wasn't available to be used.
In particular the last part, you will not have that type of reality in place when it comes to ISIS.
Heil Dude Brah
back to the topic at hand. I don't see ISIS in their present state of overzealous piousness ever pulling the region together in a way that would challenge the western world. It seems like we've gotten the rabid dog to chase it's own tail. Now alot of this blood is on our hands for creating the vacuum that allowed ISIS. But it really seems that they're fracturing the Muslim world with their legalism. Ala negadawg/posidawg eating of their own.
As long as there is a standing army with land we can bomb their asses into the sand and they can be martyrs. Boots on the ground would be playing into their hands in my opinion. I'd rather drone their shit to death and watch them flounder. A stagnant caliph is a failing caliph. -
I get the comments about the region eating its own ...
But the reality is that it doesn't matter who it is, it's BS. And to allow it to go unfettered is a problem.
Yes, the movements in theory are predictable. You never know though when people are going to deviate from what is predictable.
And I realize that Hitler Germany and ISIS are apples and oranges ... apparently some of you need to take a walk and gain some perspective when it comes to understanding what "last even remotely comparable threat" means. -
This. I also liked how their propaganda films show medieval battles because there are specific details in the Kuran about battles on horseback with ancient weapons. They will be so disappointed sitting on their painted war horses, battleaxe in hand, waiting for Ceasar's army to meet them for the final holy war, only to be greeted by napalm wielding unmanned aircraft.brchco12 said:
So you're saying Hitler was a good recruiter and won alot of off season natties and was a couple unfortunate plays away from being undefeated.Tequilla said:
You clearly aren't aware of the fact that history has a tendency to repeat itself in one form or another.Doogles said:
In my ignorant view, let's satisfy all the people that say we mettle too much in worldly affairs and sit this one out for a time. Let France, UK, surrounding middle eastern countries in imminent danger to be invaded handle their own shit. Or, as we like to say, LIPO.ThomasFremont said:After reading this, I am convinced that al-Qaeda is still a bigger threat to America.
But if these ISIS dicks wanna dig in and put up a flag, I say we bomb them back to the stone age that they so desperately crave.
The last even remotely comparable threat that I can think of that has any kind of similar elements is the rise of Hitler to power in Germany in 1933.
The position of Europe was to stand back, try to negotiate, tell Hitler he was a bad person and that he needed a timeout. Hitler smiled, said ok, and then invaded all of them.
The US position at the time was to stay out of it because it wasn't their fight. They only got involved when they had to.
If you don't realize how close Germany was to taking out all of Europe, then I don't know what to tell you. They were an air battle victory away from being able to conquer England in what was a massive upset in the grand scheme of things. They ran into the worst Russian winter since Napoleon tried to invade Russia during their invasion attempt. If you don't think that Hitler wouldn't have used an A-Bomb had he had the ability to do so in 1940 or the winter of 1941/1942, then you have your head in the sand. And don't forget in that situation, that while he had the leading German scientists working on such a bomb, the scientists also did a good job of sabotaging their own work and finding ways to delay their production so that it wasn't available to be used.
In particular the last part, you will not have that type of reality in place when it comes to ISIS.
Heil Dude Brah
back to the topic at hand. I don't see ISIS in their present state of overzealous piousness ever pulling the region together in a way that would challenge the western world. It seems like we've gotten the rabid dog to chase it's own tail. Now alot of this blood is on our hands for creating the vacuum that allowed ISIS. But it really seems that they're fracturing the Muslim world with their legalism. Ala negadawg/posidawg eating of their own.
As long as there is a standing army with land we can bomb their asses into the sand and they can be martyrs. Boots on the ground would be playing into their hands in my opinion. I'd rather drone their shit to death and watch them flounder. A stagnant caliph is a failing caliph.
MoHammad you LIAR!!!
