After reading everything, the other schools knew Colorado was leaving and didn't care. But his response at Pac 12 media days has to be the dumbest fucking game plan for that question.
SDSU and Colorado are basically the same thing as far as dollars and eyes. SDSU is a better AD.
ATBS, PAC has never been able to control the narrative on this and is perpetually 5 steps behind. Had the media rights been completed earlier they could've brought SDSU onboard for far less money. SDSU's buyout is now doubled to $34 million because they took so damn long.
It doesn't matter how shitty the school is that left the conference. The narrative is PAC continues to lose.
I'm listening to Furness right now. Other than the usual butthurt coug "IF WASHINGTON AND OREGON WERE GONE TO THE B1G THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT!!!" schtick, he's right about the response.
Just immediately announce SDSU. The official Pac response was just more of the same which feeds the Big 12 grifters.
Washington and Oregon should just tell the league they need combined 60%+ of revenue, all games but 1-2 on linear or they're joining the Big 12 tomorrow.
But of course we know at UW and Oregon are getting into the B1G at probably 40-50 mil to start with.
There's always a chance that a backlash could occur when the Big 10 teams sort out the economic and logistical nightmare of having two conference teams on the west coast. It could change sentiment for having UW and Oregon join later. I'm not so sure it's a slam dunk.
The BIG wouldn't be getting a slam dunk having UW. They'd get a triple double
Really? What have they done lately, pod..Regardless of spooge and barf tank…I will rebuttal anything past this dumbassery later today…Bowing up? that’s exactly what I need someone to do regarding this shit when I wake up later later today…..I will totally defend it.
Played Bama in a playoff? How’ed that work out for ya, WA???
Meh. I seem to get hammered for a lot but what I’ve seen tonight with mixing it up here, really not too bad..IOW; unless you have a legitimate beef or why ANY PUSSY….I’ll say again,,,PUSSY…PAC SHIT team can compete tor say something legit…fuk those guys…ehhh? Riley is the largest leader…FTG, ehhhh???
Hold on…is this the same guy that wouldn’t elaborate on “PAC 12 Days” wassup with a media deal? On “PAC 12 Days”?
Neah. Wouldn’t put much stock in to what he says.
Absolutely NOTHING gets by secDawg.
I DVR CFL everyday…
Saw that guy stumbling around on his words days ago…”uh, uh, uh…, not elaborating on “media” stuff right now”…”uh, uh, uh…”
Fuck, I’m in south MS and saw that shit.
If I’m a top level recruit, and expect a spotlight on ME! And you have no answer to what spotlight may be on me?? Fuck ya. I absolutely know where one will be, either BIG with Fox or SEC with ESPN…evertyfuckingsaturday…fuck ya.
Heh. Hell yeah. Stomping grounds. The Bulldogs. Why fuck yeah.
2nd stint in rehab was there. 90 days spent getting to know Jesus. Also smoked weed, kicked a door off the hinges, and almost got kicked out - typical rehab shit. It was very effective as two years later I became a crack addict but at least I had Jesus by my side.
I would’ve left but it was in the middle of fucking no where and the thought of hitchhiking back to Petal didn’t seem appealing.
After reading everything, the other schools knew Colorado was leaving and didn't care. But his response at Pac 12 media days has to be the dumbest fucking game plan for that question.
SDSU and Colorado are basically the same thing as far as dollars and eyes. SDSU is a better AD.
ATBS, PAC has never been able to control the narrative on this and is perpetually 5 steps behind. Had the media rights been completed earlier they could've brought SDSU onboard for far less money. SDSU's buyout is now doubled to $34 million because they took so damn long.
It doesn't matter how shitty the school is that left the conference. The narrative is PAC continues to lose.
I'm listening to Furness right now. Other than the usual butthurt coug "IF WASHINGTON AND OREGON WERE GONE TO THE B1G THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT!!!" schtick, he's right about the response.
Just immediately announce SDSU. The official Pac response was just more of the same which feeds the Big 12 grifters.
Washington and Oregon should just tell the league they need combined 60%+ of revenue, all games but 1-2 on linear or they're joining the Big 12 tomorrow.
But of course we know at UW and Oregon are getting into the B1G at probably 40-50 mil to start with.
There's always a chance that a backlash could occur when the Big 10 teams sort out the economic and logistical nightmare of having two conference teams on the west coast. It could change sentiment for having UW and Oregon join later. I'm not so sure it's a slam dunk.
The BIG wouldn't be getting a slam dunk having UW. They'd get a triple double
Really? What have they done lately, pod..Regardless of spooge and barf tank…I will rebuttal anything past this dumbassery later today…Bowing up? that’s exactly what I need someone to do regarding this shit when I wake up later later today…..I will totally defend it.
Played Bama in a playoff? How’ed that work out for ya, WA???
Meh. I seem to get hammered for a lot but what I’ve seen tonight with mixing it up here, really not too bad..IOW; unless you have a legitimate beef or why ANY PUSSY….I’ll say again,,,PUSSY…PAC SHIT team can compete tor say something legit…fuk those guys…ehhh? Riley is the largest leader…FTG, ehhhh???
Anyone here have a say in the difference??
Oregon, do YOU???
Washington Huskies…DO YOU?
USC..DO YOU???
Who else y’all love???
My kingdom for a translation on this part
SECdwag is proof that deliverance is still VERY MUCH happening in the south. NTTIATWWT.
Hold on…is this the same guy that wouldn’t elaborate on “PAC 12 Days” wassup with a media deal? On “PAC 12 Days”?
Neah. Wouldn’t put much stock in to what he says.
Absolutely NOTHING gets by secDawg.
I DVR CFL everyday…
Saw that guy stumbling around on his words days ago…”uh, uh, uh…, not elaborating on “media” stuff right now”…”uh, uh, uh…”
Fuck, I’m in south MS and saw that shit.
If I’m a top level recruit, and expect a spotlight on ME! And you have no answer to what spotlight may be on me?? Fuck ya. I absolutely know where one will be, either BIG with Fox or SEC with ESPN…evertyfuckingsaturday…fuck ya.
Heh. Hell yeah. Stomping grounds. The Bulldogs. Why fuck yeah.
2nd stint in rehab was there. 90 days spent getting to know Jesus. Also smoked weed, kicked a door off the hinges, and almost got kicked out - typical rehab shit. It was very effective as two years later I became a crack addict but at least I had Jesus by my side.
I would’ve left but it was in the middle of fucking no where and the thought of hitchhiking back to Petal didn’t seem appealing.
CSB, I know.
Petal Panthers. Know the place well. Not the rehab joints but the city. 😉
Hold on…is this the same guy that wouldn’t elaborate on “PAC 12 Days” wassup with a media deal? On “PAC 12 Days”?
Neah. Wouldn’t put much stock in to what he says.
Absolutely NOTHING gets by secDawg.
I DVR CFL everyday…
Saw that guy stumbling around on his words days ago…”uh, uh, uh…, not elaborating on “media” stuff right now”…”uh, uh, uh…”
Fuck, I’m in south MS and saw that shit.
If I’m a top level recruit, and expect a spotlight on ME! And you have no answer to what spotlight may be on me?? Fuck ya. I absolutely know where one will be, either BIG with Fox or SEC with ESPN…evertyfuckingsaturday…fuck ya.
Heh. Hell yeah. Stomping grounds. The Bulldogs. Why fuck yeah.
2nd stint in rehab was there. 90 days spent getting to know Jesus. Also smoked weed, kicked a door off the hinges, and almost got kicked out - typical rehab shit. It was very effective as two years later I became a crack addict but at least I had Jesus by my side.
I would’ve left but it was in the middle of fucking no where and the thought of hitchhiking back to Petal didn’t seem appealing.
CSB, I know.
Petal Panthers. Know the place well. Not the rehab joints but the city. 😉
Yeah, went from a block down the street from Microsoft to petal MS at 19. Much needed though I thought my life was over.
After reading everything, the other schools knew Colorado was leaving and didn't care. But his response at Pac 12 media days has to be the dumbest fucking game plan for that question.
SDSU and Colorado are basically the same thing as far as dollars and eyes. SDSU is a better AD.
ATBS, PAC has never been able to control the narrative on this and is perpetually 5 steps behind. Had the media rights been completed earlier they could've brought SDSU onboard for far less money. SDSU's buyout is now doubled to $34 million because they took so damn long.
It doesn't matter how shitty the school is that left the conference. The narrative is PAC continues to lose.
I'm listening to Furness right now. Other than the usual butthurt coug "IF WASHINGTON AND OREGON WERE GONE TO THE B1G THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT!!!" schtick, he's right about the response.
Just immediately announce SDSU. The official Pac response was just more of the same which feeds the Big 12 grifters.
Washington and Oregon should just tell the league they need combined 60%+ of revenue, all games but 1-2 on linear or they're joining the Big 12 tomorrow.
But of course we know at UW and Oregon are getting into the B1G at probably 40-50 mil to start with.
There's always a chance that a backlash could occur when the Big 10 teams sort out the economic and logistical nightmare of having two conference teams on the west coast. It could change sentiment for having UW and Oregon join later. I'm not so sure it's a slam dunk.
The BIG wouldn't be getting a slam dunk having UW. They'd get a triple double
Really? What have they done lately, pod..Regardless of spooge and barf tank…I will rebuttal anything past this dumbassery later today…Bowing up? that’s exactly what I need someone to do regarding this shit when I wake up later later today…..I will totally defend it.
Played Bama in a playoff? How’ed that work out for ya, WA???
Meh. I seem to get hammered for a lot but what I’ve seen tonight with mixing it up here, really not too bad..IOW; unless you have a legitimate beef or why ANY PUSSY….I’ll say again,,,PUSSY…PAC SHIT team can compete tor say something legit…fuk those guys…ehhh? Riley is the largest leader…FTG, ehhhh???
Anyone here have a say in the difference??
Oregon, do YOU???
Washington Huskies…DO YOU?
USC..DO YOU???
Who else y’all love???
My kingdom for a translation on this part
SECdwag is proof that deliverance is still VERY MUCH happening in the south. NTTIATWWT.
After reading everything, the other schools knew Colorado was leaving and didn't care. But his response at Pac 12 media days has to be the dumbest fucking game plan for that question.
SDSU and Colorado are basically the same thing as far as dollars and eyes. SDSU is a better AD.
ATBS, PAC has never been able to control the narrative on this and is perpetually 5 steps behind. Had the media rights been completed earlier they could've brought SDSU onboard for far less money. SDSU's buyout is now doubled to $34 million because they took so damn long.
It doesn't matter how shitty the school is that left the conference. The narrative is PAC continues to lose.
I'm listening to Furness right now. Other than the usual butthurt coug "IF WASHINGTON AND OREGON WERE GONE TO THE B1G THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT!!!" schtick, he's right about the response.
Just immediately announce SDSU. The official Pac response was just more of the same which feeds the Big 12 grifters.
Washington and Oregon should just tell the league they need combined 60%+ of revenue, all games but 1-2 on linear or they're joining the Big 12 tomorrow.
But of course we know at UW and Oregon are getting into the B1G at probably 40-50 mil to start with.
There's always a chance that a backlash could occur when the Big 10 teams sort out the economic and logistical nightmare of having two conference teams on the west coast. It could change sentiment for having UW and Oregon join later. I'm not so sure it's a slam dunk.
It's all about money until you have to haul your entire football program 4-5 times a year into the CT or ET zones and have players adapt to playing at what would be 9am for them. I see where it's not a huge problem maybe once a year but it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Which is why the B1G is saying that they want to see how the SC/UCLA logistics work before moving on any additional WC teams.
After reading everything, the other schools knew Colorado was leaving and didn't care. But his response at Pac 12 media days has to be the dumbest fucking game plan for that question.
SDSU and Colorado are basically the same thing as far as dollars and eyes. SDSU is a better AD.
ATBS, PAC has never been able to control the narrative on this and is perpetually 5 steps behind. Had the media rights been completed earlier they could've brought SDSU onboard for far less money. SDSU's buyout is now doubled to $34 million because they took so damn long.
It doesn't matter how shitty the school is that left the conference. The narrative is PAC continues to lose.
I'm listening to Furness right now. Other than the usual butthurt coug "IF WASHINGTON AND OREGON WERE GONE TO THE B1G THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT!!!" schtick, he's right about the response.
Just immediately announce SDSU. The official Pac response was just more of the same which feeds the Big 12 grifters.
Washington and Oregon should just tell the league they need combined 60%+ of revenue, all games but 1-2 on linear or they're joining the Big 12 tomorrow.
But of course we know at UW and Oregon are getting into the B1G at probably 40-50 mil to start with.
There's always a chance that a backlash could occur when the Big 10 teams sort out the economic and logistical nightmare of having two conference teams on the west coast. It could change sentiment for having UW and Oregon join later. I'm not so sure it's a slam dunk.
It's all about money until you have to haul your entire football program 4-5 times a year into the CT or ET zones and have players adapt to playing at what would be 9am for them. I see where it's not a huge problem maybe once a year but it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Which is why the B1G is saying that they want to see how the SC/UCLA logistics work before moving on any additional WC teams.
After reading everything, the other schools knew Colorado was leaving and didn't care. But his response at Pac 12 media days has to be the dumbest fucking game plan for that question.
SDSU and Colorado are basically the same thing as far as dollars and eyes. SDSU is a better AD.
ATBS, PAC has never been able to control the narrative on this and is perpetually 5 steps behind. Had the media rights been completed earlier they could've brought SDSU onboard for far less money. SDSU's buyout is now doubled to $34 million because they took so damn long.
It doesn't matter how shitty the school is that left the conference. The narrative is PAC continues to lose.
I'm listening to Furness right now. Other than the usual butthurt coug "IF WASHINGTON AND OREGON WERE GONE TO THE B1G THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT!!!" schtick, he's right about the response.
Just immediately announce SDSU. The official Pac response was just more of the same which feeds the Big 12 grifters.
Washington and Oregon should just tell the league they need combined 60%+ of revenue, all games but 1-2 on linear or they're joining the Big 12 tomorrow.
But of course we know at UW and Oregon are getting into the B1G at probably 40-50 mil to start with.
There's always a chance that a backlash could occur when the Big 10 teams sort out the economic and logistical nightmare of having two conference teams on the west coast. It could change sentiment for having UW and Oregon join later. I'm not so sure it's a slam dunk.
It's all about money until you have to haul your entire football program 4-5 times a year into the CT or ET zones and have players adapt to playing at what would be 9am for them. I see where it's not a huge problem maybe once a year but it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Which is why the B1G is saying that they want to see how the SC/UCLA logistics work before moving on any additional WC teams.
As the US dollar continues to deteriorate, flying your tennis and golf teams from LA to East Lansing or New Jersey repeatedly will be seen as a liability
Shit. In hindsight, GK was apparently able to do the nearly impossible (we shall see).
He now appears to be about (somewhat above) mid-way between that stupid fucker Larry Scott and the commissioner that the P12 needed to hire as LS's replacement.
I know the consensus is that the reported deal is lose, lose, lose for the P12/9 but he may have delayed the pain of taking it directly up the WAZZU.
The biggest knock I have with GK is he did NOTHING until it was too late.
Why did he not look at some kind of mega merger with the ACC and B12 when USC and UCLA decided to leave one year ago?
His inaction, or inability to actually lead the P12, is rightly responsible for the B12 being perceived as superior to the P12.
TLDR, he is better than anticipated but just not good enough.
After reading everything, the other schools knew Colorado was leaving and didn't care. But his response at Pac 12 media days has to be the dumbest fucking game plan for that question.
SDSU and Colorado are basically the same thing as far as dollars and eyes. SDSU is a better AD.
ATBS, PAC has never been able to control the narrative on this and is perpetually 5 steps behind. Had the media rights been completed earlier they could've brought SDSU onboard for far less money. SDSU's buyout is now doubled to $34 million because they took so damn long.
It doesn't matter how shitty the school is that left the conference. The narrative is PAC continues to lose.
I'm listening to Furness right now. Other than the usual butthurt coug "IF WASHINGTON AND OREGON WERE GONE TO THE B1G THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT!!!" schtick, he's right about the response.
Just immediately announce SDSU. The official Pac response was just more of the same which feeds the Big 12 grifters.
Washington and Oregon should just tell the league they need combined 60%+ of revenue, all games but 1-2 on linear or they're joining the Big 12 tomorrow.
But of course we know at UW and Oregon are getting into the B1G at probably 40-50 mil to start with.
There's always a chance that a backlash could occur when the Big 10 teams sort out the economic and logistical nightmare of having two conference teams on the west coast. It could change sentiment for having UW and Oregon join later. I'm not so sure it's a slam dunk.
It's all about money until you have to haul your entire football program 4-5 times a year into the CT or ET zones and have players adapt to playing at what would be 9am for them. I see where it's not a huge problem maybe once a year but it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Which is why the B1G is saying that they want to see how the SC/UCLA logistics work before moving on any additional WC teams.
After reading everything, the other schools knew Colorado was leaving and didn't care. But his response at Pac 12 media days has to be the dumbest fucking game plan for that question.
SDSU and Colorado are basically the same thing as far as dollars and eyes. SDSU is a better AD.
ATBS, PAC has never been able to control the narrative on this and is perpetually 5 steps behind. Had the media rights been completed earlier they could've brought SDSU onboard for far less money. SDSU's buyout is now doubled to $34 million because they took so damn long.
It doesn't matter how shitty the school is that left the conference. The narrative is PAC continues to lose.
I'm listening to Furness right now. Other than the usual butthurt coug "IF WASHINGTON AND OREGON WERE GONE TO THE B1G THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT!!!" schtick, he's right about the response.
Just immediately announce SDSU. The official Pac response was just more of the same which feeds the Big 12 grifters.
Washington and Oregon should just tell the league they need combined 60%+ of revenue, all games but 1-2 on linear or they're joining the Big 12 tomorrow.
But of course we know at UW and Oregon are getting into the B1G at probably 40-50 mil to start with.
There's always a chance that a backlash could occur when the Big 10 teams sort out the economic and logistical nightmare of having two conference teams on the west coast. It could change sentiment for having UW and Oregon join later. I'm not so sure it's a slam dunk.
It's all about money until you have to haul your entire football program 4-5 times a year into the CT or ET zones and have players adapt to playing at what would be 9am for them. I see where it's not a huge problem maybe once a year but it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Which is why the B1G is saying that they want to see how the SC/UCLA logistics work before moving on any additional WC teams.
As the US dollar continues to deteriorate, flying your tennis and golf teams from LA to East Lansing or New Jersey repeatedly will be seen as a liability
For example, maybe the league can pair UCLA men’s soccer with USC women’s volleyball, and the two teams could charter together to play Northwestern and Illinois on the same weekend. Alternatively, they could fly commercial together and share buses. One other example of the minutiae of these travel considerations: In this scenario, the order of the L.A. teams’ games should be Illinois, followed by Northwestern. That way, those teams would end up much closer to O’Hare International Airport and could fly home directly after the games.
-- The east-to-west flights back to L.A. will also help cap the total number of days of trips. Elliott said that in many cases there are more return trip options later in the day from airports such as Newark, Detroit and O’Hare than there have been when UCLA teams have been trying to get home from Pac-12 locales such as Pullman or Tucson. Plus, the time change allows athletes to get back from weekend action on a Sunday instead of a Monday and be able to make Monday classes. -- It’s likely much of the planning and execution of cross-country travel will surprise fans in and out of the league. The undertaking is unlike anything else in college sports, even as other conferences have expanded across time zones and into areas less accessible by major airport. No Division I conference stretches fully from the Pacific to the Atlantic Ocean. No one else has to figure out how Rutgers and USC will play a regular-season tennis match.
Penn State focus, which has no airport within a 90 minute drive capable of handling a plane large enough to fly a football team to the west coast (State College airport runway is too short for 737s to be fully loaded for a flight that long), and no airport within 3 hours drive of commercial flights to the west coast. https://theathletic.com/4696457/2023/07/20/penn-state-usc-ucla-big-ten/
For regular-season games, Penn State football charters a smaller plane that leaves from the University Park Airport. The equipment truck is loaded Thursday morning with everything players wear from head to toe, plus headsets, Gatorade, rain gear and anything the team may need. After the equipment staff cross-checks to be sure everything is on board, the truck departs on Thursday night and is driven to the team’s hotel and then to the stadium.
When Penn State visited USC in 1991 — the last time the Nittany Lions played the Trojans in a regular-season road game — the team flew out of Harrisburg International Airport (about a 100-mile bus ride away) with all of the equipment loaded on the plane.
For bowl games, Penn State typically first takes buses to Harrisburg so it can fly nonstop on a larger aircraft — the kind of planes that can accommodate an entire travel party complete with the coaching staff’s families.
The USC game in 1991 was one of only four times that the equipment was flown during Spider Caldwell’s 31 years as Penn State’s football equipment manager. The others: at Texas in 1989, at BYU in 1992 and the 1983 Aloha Bowl. Penn State of course had to fly equipment to Ireland for Franklin’s first game as Penn State’s head coach in 2014 after Caldwell retired from his equipment role.
“It’s miserable to fly equipment,” Caldwell said. “Myself and some student managers were literally under the plane in the cargo hold. We rode the conveyor belt up and you’re hauling trunks too, not just bags, but sideline trunks, and to make them fit you have to flip them and turn them upside down. Then, you have to make sure the weight in the plane is all balanced so you’re shifting stuff around.”
Unloading the equipment at the destination means using a trucking company that the equipment staff is not accustomed to working with.
It's not unusual for different sports at a college to belong to different conferences. What I could see happening is sports that NGAFA stay in some kind of new PAC-12esque conference and football/basketball join the megaconferences.
Comments
He now appears to be about (somewhat above) mid-way between that stupid fucker Larry Scott and the commissioner that the P12 needed to hire as LS's replacement.
I know the consensus is that the reported deal is lose, lose, lose for the P12/9 but he may have delayed the pain of taking it directly up the WAZZU.
The biggest knock I have with GK is he did NOTHING until it was too late.
Why did he not look at some kind of mega merger with the ACC and B12 when USC and UCLA decided to leave one year ago?
His inaction, or inability to actually lead the P12, is rightly responsible for the B12 being perceived as superior to the P12.
TLDR, he is better than anticipated but just not good enough.
https://theathletic.com/4734532/2023/07/31/usc-ucla-big-ten-travel-schedules/
--
The east-to-west flights back to L.A. will also help cap the total number of days of trips. Elliott said that in many cases there are more return trip options later in the day from airports such as Newark, Detroit and O’Hare than there have been when UCLA teams have been trying to get home from Pac-12 locales such as Pullman or Tucson. Plus, the time change allows athletes to get back from weekend action on a Sunday instead of a Monday and be able to make Monday classes.
--
It’s likely much of the planning and execution of cross-country travel will surprise fans in and out of the league. The undertaking is unlike anything else in college sports, even as other conferences have expanded across time zones and into areas less accessible by major airport. No Division I conference stretches fully from the Pacific to the Atlantic Ocean. No one else has to figure out how Rutgers and USC will play a regular-season tennis match.
Penn State focus, which has no airport within a 90 minute drive capable of handling a plane large enough to fly a football team to the west coast (State College airport runway is too short for 737s to be fully loaded for a flight that long), and no airport within 3 hours drive of commercial flights to the west coast.
https://theathletic.com/4696457/2023/07/20/penn-state-usc-ucla-big-ten/
When Penn State visited USC in 1991 — the last time the Nittany Lions played the Trojans in a regular-season road game — the team flew out of Harrisburg International Airport (about a 100-mile bus ride away) with all of the equipment loaded on the plane.
For bowl games, Penn State typically first takes buses to Harrisburg so it can fly nonstop on a larger aircraft — the kind of planes that can accommodate an entire travel party complete with the coaching staff’s families.
The USC game in 1991 was one of only four times that the equipment was flown during Spider Caldwell’s 31 years as Penn State’s football equipment manager. The others: at Texas in 1989, at BYU in 1992 and the 1983 Aloha Bowl. Penn State of course had to fly equipment to Ireland for Franklin’s first game as Penn State’s head coach in 2014 after Caldwell retired from his equipment role.
“It’s miserable to fly equipment,” Caldwell said. “Myself and some student managers were literally under the plane in the cargo hold. We rode the conveyor belt up and you’re hauling trunks too, not just bags, but sideline trunks, and to make them fit you have to flip them and turn them upside down. Then, you have to make sure the weight in the plane is all balanced so you’re shifting stuff around.”
Unloading the equipment at the destination means using a trucking company that the equipment staff is not accustomed to working with.