So what’s the point of Ukraine?
Comments
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Russian is invading...areas that have been essentially annexed for the past 8 years. Biden will be tougher on Putin than Daddy..still waiting for that one.Pitchfork51 said:
The Russia scare I would say was concocted by Russiahardhat said:Just trying to figure out if Putin really made Trump his bitch, then why did he wait until after he left office to stir shit up in Ukraine?
But realistically it was just standard political nonsense.
Although this makes sense because no one really bought the Russia thing since no one actually sees it as a threat to their daily life.
So what do they do?
Drum up some BS as to how Russia really IS a threat to your daily life and vote Dem or else!
The latest signal I'm picking up on is this gives the Brandon administration cover for inflation and high gas prices. Now if they can somehow turn this into a war, they'll just say it was covid and Russia! that are to blame, not our incompetence.
But yeah, this weird fascination with Ukraine and Russia has been going on a long time. All while China is exponentially bigger a threat. Russia is Burkina Faso with nuclear weapons. Which country should we concentrate on? -
Putin had no reason to feel threatened by NATO with Daddy in office undermining the alliance.hardhat said:Just trying to figure out if Putin really made Trump his bitch, then why did he wait until after he left office to stir shit up in Ukraine?
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Lol, you really are out of your depth. As far as undermining alliances, Victoria Nuland famously meddled in Ukraine and even said 'Fuck the EU'HHusky said:
Putin had no reason to feel threatened by NATO with Daddy in office undermining the alliance.hardhat said:Just trying to figure out if Putin really made Trump his bitch, then why did he wait until after he left office to stir shit up in Ukraine?
Now guess who she's working for. Are you serious dude? -
He got his pipeline deal. He also just got one with China. High energy prices are good for him, so secure the pipelines and then Jack of prices with uncertainty.Pitchfork51 said:
The Russia scare I would say was concocted by Russiahardhat said:Just trying to figure out if Putin really made Trump his bitch, then why did he wait until after he left office to stir shit up in Ukraine?
But realistically it was just standard political nonsense.
Although this makes sense because no one really bought the Russia thing since no one actually sees it as a threat to their daily life.
So what do they do?
Drum up some BS as to how Russia really IS a threat to your daily life and vote Dem or else!
He probably actually has something on Biden also. And knows he ain’t gonna do shit because of that. You think everything was just sitting on Hunters laptop and Putin doesn’t have something ten times worse? -
The boys are back in town! The Avengers are here! -
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You couldn’t lick a boot harder if you tried…do you even have a semblance of dignity?HHusky said:
Putin had no reason to feel threatened by NATO with Daddy in office undermining the alliance.hardhat said:Just trying to figure out if Putin really made Trump his bitch, then why did he wait until after he left office to stir shit up in Ukraine?
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Obama told me that it was laughable that Russia was our greatest geopolitical threat. And he was the Messiah. Anointed by the Left.Pitchfork51 said:
The Russia scare I would say was concocted by Russiahardhat said:Just trying to figure out if Putin really made Trump his bitch, then why did he wait until after he left office to stir shit up in Ukraine?
But realistically it was just standard political nonsense.
Although this makes sense because no one really bought the Russia thing since no one actually sees it as a threat to their daily life.
So what do they do?
Drum up some BS as to how Russia really IS a threat to your daily life and vote Dem or else!
#IBelieveObama -
None at all. This hawt taek was DOA. If NATO was so undermined by Daddy, that would have been the incentive to invade Ukraine, because NATO would have been weaker and unable to respond. Now that Biden is back and supposedly in charge, NATO is less undermined but somehow that means it's time to invade? The TDS in some people has really fried their brains and taken all logic away.HoustonHusky said:
You couldn’t lick a boot harder if you tried…do you even have a semblance of dignity?HHusky said:
Putin had no reason to feel threatened by NATO with Daddy in office undermining the alliance.hardhat said:Just trying to figure out if Putin really made Trump his bitch, then why did he wait until after he left office to stir shit up in Ukraine?
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HoustonHusky said:
You couldn’t lick a boot harder if you tried…do you even have a semblance of dignity?HHusky said:
Putin had no reason to feel threatened by NATO with Daddy in office undermining the alliance.hardhat said:Just trying to figure out if Putin really made Trump his bitch, then why did he wait until after he left office to stir shit up in Ukraine?
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Damn, now these are some takes. Could you please expand on the bolded above? Also, why are you so harsh on the Polocks?RatherBeBrewing said:
Nothing wrong with caring about the US as top priority. I’m the same way.WestlinnDuck said:
Since I'm an American, I like America First takes. If the Euros don't like Putin messing in their backyard, then they should man up. Their combined economies are multiple times as large as Russia. Relying on Russia for their energy is just as smart as relying on the chicoms for all our drugs and then funding their gain of function research on bat viruses at a substandard bio lab.RatherBeBrewing said:Reading through this thread and it’s funny to me how Americentric all these takes are. I don’t blame y’all. The British are the same way, thinking it’s about them and bringing their internal politics into this. The Germans don’t care as much, they got their discount Russian gas pipeline and checked out. The French are playing the heroic part of diplomat since the others don’t care and are letting them pretend they’re a big boy. Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why.
Anyway, the American transition to becoming a nation of pussies is almost complete. Old Bush started it when presented a golden opportunity he ignored, Clinton was lazy and thought it was over, other Bush or whoever called the shots at least had some balls but traded in their chips to a more cunning player, Obama completely fucked it up worse than any of them, Trump only had four years or he would have rivaled him, and Biden is trying but he’s out of his element and that’s the nicest thing I can say about his entire existence. Magic underwear Romney was partially right, and everyone laughed at him. Never thought I’d see the day.
At the same time, there are high stakes here. The Euros aren’t going to do shit, it doesn’t matter if even Italy has a bigger economy than Russia. German business interests would never allow it. American hegemony is long gone, maybe we don’t need it anymore or ever even did. But let me tell you, there’s some major fallout coming from watching this happen. It’s the old ounce of prevention for a pound of cure. We’re just kicking the can down the road if we do nothing and eventually the costs will be magnitudes greater.
I’ve spent years working in that part of the world solving problems and I am beyond surprised that it’s gotten to this point, it’s a surreal scenario that is one step away from worst case. The repercussions are bigger than most people realize, and the old man in Washington has done a shitty job explaining them to the American people.
"Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why." -
I’m not disagreeing with your main point if the point is us not getting into a shooting war. That would be ludicrous. This is just for clarification:WestlinnDuck said:
We can put sanctions on Russia. I'd also sanction any European country that was taking gas from the Russians. The killer will be to drive down world oil prices with a big increase in US oil and gas production. We aren't and shouldn't get into a shooting war over Ukraine. I'd be happy to make the Euros scream bloody murder at us. What are they going to do - send us a mean tweet. Pull every US soldier out. No big American paychecks going to buy Euro housing and food. Oh, and take out Iran with the Israelis before we let the Iranians have nukes. But the dems and Biden would never even try this, let alone phuck it up with or emasculated military.RatherBeBrewing said:
Nothing wrong with caring about the US as top priority. I’m the same way.WestlinnDuck said:
Since I'm an American, I like America First takes. If the Euros don't like Putin messing in their backyard, then they should man up. Their combined economies are multiple times as large as Russia. Relying on Russia for their energy is just as smart as relying on the chicoms for all our drugs and then funding their gain of function research on bat viruses at a substandard bio lab.RatherBeBrewing said:Reading through this thread and it’s funny to me how Americentric all these takes are. I don’t blame y’all. The British are the same way, thinking it’s about them and bringing their internal politics into this. The Germans don’t care as much, they got their discount Russian gas pipeline and checked out. The French are playing the heroic part of diplomat since the others don’t care and are letting them pretend they’re a big boy. Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why.
Anyway, the American transition to becoming a nation of pussies is almost complete. Old Bush started it when presented a golden opportunity he ignored, Clinton was lazy and thought it was over, other Bush or whoever called the shots at least had some balls but traded in their chips to a more cunning player, Obama completely fucked it up worse than any of them, Trump only had four years or he would have rivaled him, and Biden is trying but he’s out of his element and that’s the nicest thing I can say about his entire existence. Magic underwear Romney was partially right, and everyone laughed at him. Never thought I’d see the day.
At the same time, there are high stakes here. The Euros aren’t going to do shit, it doesn’t matter if even Italy has a bigger economy than Russia. German business interests would never allow it. American hegemony is long gone, maybe we don’t need it anymore or ever even did. But let me tell you, there’s some major fallout coming from watching this happen. It’s the old ounce of prevention for a pound of cure. We’re just kicking the can down the road if we do nothing and eventually the costs will be magnitudes greater.
I’ve spent years working in that part of the world solving problems and I am beyond surprised that it’s gotten to this point, it’s a surreal scenario that is one step away from worst case. The repercussions are bigger than most people realize, and the old man in Washington has done a shitty job explaining them to the American people.
* Driving down the oil price isn’t going to bother Putin. In 2014 oil fell from ~$100 bbl and didn’t get above 60 for four years. This is in addition to the sanctions for the first farcical invasion. Russia’s economy was hurt but it didn’t move the needle.
* Putin doesn’t care if it’s worse for the average Ivan. That’s not how the system is set up. Votes don’t matter in an oligarchic kleptocracy unless they belong to the oligarchs. And the oligarchs exist because Putin allows them to exist so long as they don’t meddle in politics.
* Euros besides those who know Russia (Baltics and Poland won’t scream because they don’t care enough. The (Western) Europeans are all in such precarious positions of power, with split electorates where a few percentage points puts the other parties in charge. They won’t do anything to harm themselves.
* The US has said they won’t cut Russia off from SWIFT and that’s one of the few things that will move the needle. Great strategy by sleepy Joe, tell them ahead of time that you won’t use the best non violent deterrent.
The way out is to cause the Russian oligarchs and middle class to suffer enough economic pain to put pressure on Putin to give up being Stalin 2.0 and recreating his shitty empire. Cut them off from the banking system and freeze/seize the assets of all his oligarch minions. That’s it, threat over. -
If it makes you feel better I'm getting ready for a Texas freeze and listening to Shakira at 1am
Told my employees to not call me -
Agree with some of this, but the end of the day the West has treated Ukraine like shite for the last 10 years using it as a corrupt slush fund for all sorts of purposes that help them and don’t help Ukraine. The areas in question are 90% Russian, speak Russian, and pretty much hate the west now (and the other parts of Ukraine), esp after a lot of the shenanigans that happened under Obama’s administration. If they want to be part of Russia IDGAF…RatherBeBrewing said:
I’m not disagreeing with your main point if the point is us not getting into a shooting war. That would be ludicrous. This is just for clarification:WestlinnDuck said:
We can put sanctions on Russia. I'd also sanction any European country that was taking gas from the Russians. The killer will be to drive down world oil prices with a big increase in US oil and gas production. We aren't and shouldn't get into a shooting war over Ukraine. I'd be happy to make the Euros scream bloody murder at us. What are they going to do - send us a mean tweet. Pull every US soldier out. No big American paychecks going to buy Euro housing and food. Oh, and take out Iran with the Israelis before we let the Iranians have nukes. But the dems and Biden would never even try this, let alone phuck it up with or emasculated military.RatherBeBrewing said:
Nothing wrong with caring about the US as top priority. I’m the same way.WestlinnDuck said:
Since I'm an American, I like America First takes. If the Euros don't like Putin messing in their backyard, then they should man up. Their combined economies are multiple times as large as Russia. Relying on Russia for their energy is just as smart as relying on the chicoms for all our drugs and then funding their gain of function research on bat viruses at a substandard bio lab.RatherBeBrewing said:Reading through this thread and it’s funny to me how Americentric all these takes are. I don’t blame y’all. The British are the same way, thinking it’s about them and bringing their internal politics into this. The Germans don’t care as much, they got their discount Russian gas pipeline and checked out. The French are playing the heroic part of diplomat since the others don’t care and are letting them pretend they’re a big boy. Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why.
Anyway, the American transition to becoming a nation of pussies is almost complete. Old Bush started it when presented a golden opportunity he ignored, Clinton was lazy and thought it was over, other Bush or whoever called the shots at least had some balls but traded in their chips to a more cunning player, Obama completely fucked it up worse than any of them, Trump only had four years or he would have rivaled him, and Biden is trying but he’s out of his element and that’s the nicest thing I can say about his entire existence. Magic underwear Romney was partially right, and everyone laughed at him. Never thought I’d see the day.
At the same time, there are high stakes here. The Euros aren’t going to do shit, it doesn’t matter if even Italy has a bigger economy than Russia. German business interests would never allow it. American hegemony is long gone, maybe we don’t need it anymore or ever even did. But let me tell you, there’s some major fallout coming from watching this happen. It’s the old ounce of prevention for a pound of cure. We’re just kicking the can down the road if we do nothing and eventually the costs will be magnitudes greater.
I’ve spent years working in that part of the world solving problems and I am beyond surprised that it’s gotten to this point, it’s a surreal scenario that is one step away from worst case. The repercussions are bigger than most people realize, and the old man in Washington has done a shitty job explaining them to the American people.
* Driving down the oil price isn’t going to bother Putin. In 2014 oil fell from ~$100 bbl and didn’t get above 60 for four years. This is in addition to the sanctions for the first farcical invasion. Russia’s economy was hurt but it didn’t move the needle.
* Putin doesn’t care if it’s worse for the average Ivan. That’s not how the system is set up. Votes don’t matter in an oligarchic kleptocracy unless they belong to the oligarchs. And the oligarchs exist because Putin allows them to exist so long as they don’t meddle in politics.
* Euros besides those who know Russia (Baltics and Poland won’t scream because they don’t care enough. The (Western) Europeans are all in such precarious positions of power, with split electorates where a few percentage points puts the other parties in charge. They won’t do anything to harm themselves.
* The US has said they won’t cut Russia off from SWIFT and that’s one of the few things that will move the needle. Great strategy by sleepy Joe, tell them ahead of time that you won’t use the best non violent deterrent.
The way out is to cause the Russian oligarchs and middle class to suffer enough economic pain to put pressure on Putin to give up being Stalin 2.0 and recreating his shitty empire. Cut them off from the banking system and freeze/seize the assets of all his oligarch minions. That’s it, threat over. -
I chose the wrong time to go to Krakow.... I'm doing a ww2 tour before I take a cruise out of Barcelona, hitting up Auschwitz and the Berlin and finally Normandy where we took back the world from those Nazi fucks.... I'm going to be a bit too close for comfort being so close to Ukraine. Granted it's only one day...
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You’ll be fine…this was all orchestrated a month ago. Will be a lot of noise and not much else.Goduckies said:I chose the wrong time to go to Krakow.... I'm doing a ww2 tour before I take a cruise out of Barcelona, hitting up Auschwitz and the Berlin and finally Normandy where we took back the world from those Nazi fucks.... I'm going to be a bit too close for comfort being so close to Ukraine. Granted it's only one day...
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Keeping oil prices low will impact Putin and the oligarchs. Can't steal much more from the Ivans. Someone has to pay for the Russian military. Reagan broke the USSR as they tried to keep up with US military development. It also helps the US consumer. We should expand production for that alone and cutting the Russian revenue would be gravy. I'd agree with the banking sanctions and not leaving US as a investment safe haven for the oligarchs. Plus get our troops out of Germany. Move them to Poland if we feel we need something close to the Middle East because we are dependent on their oil because US leftards are phucking American hating morons.RatherBeBrewing said:
I’m not disagreeing with your main point if the point is us not getting into a shooting war. That would be ludicrous. This is just for clarification:WestlinnDuck said:
We can put sanctions on Russia. I'd also sanction any European country that was taking gas from the Russians. The killer will be to drive down world oil prices with a big increase in US oil and gas production. We aren't and shouldn't get into a shooting war over Ukraine. I'd be happy to make the Euros scream bloody murder at us. What are they going to do - send us a mean tweet. Pull every US soldier out. No big American paychecks going to buy Euro housing and food. Oh, and take out Iran with the Israelis before we let the Iranians have nukes. But the dems and Biden would never even try this, let alone phuck it up with or emasculated military.RatherBeBrewing said:
Nothing wrong with caring about the US as top priority. I’m the same way.WestlinnDuck said:
Since I'm an American, I like America First takes. If the Euros don't like Putin messing in their backyard, then they should man up. Their combined economies are multiple times as large as Russia. Relying on Russia for their energy is just as smart as relying on the chicoms for all our drugs and then funding their gain of function research on bat viruses at a substandard bio lab.RatherBeBrewing said:Reading through this thread and it’s funny to me how Americentric all these takes are. I don’t blame y’all. The British are the same way, thinking it’s about them and bringing their internal politics into this. The Germans don’t care as much, they got their discount Russian gas pipeline and checked out. The French are playing the heroic part of diplomat since the others don’t care and are letting them pretend they’re a big boy. Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why.
Anyway, the American transition to becoming a nation of pussies is almost complete. Old Bush started it when presented a golden opportunity he ignored, Clinton was lazy and thought it was over, other Bush or whoever called the shots at least had some balls but traded in their chips to a more cunning player, Obama completely fucked it up worse than any of them, Trump only had four years or he would have rivaled him, and Biden is trying but he’s out of his element and that’s the nicest thing I can say about his entire existence. Magic underwear Romney was partially right, and everyone laughed at him. Never thought I’d see the day.
At the same time, there are high stakes here. The Euros aren’t going to do shit, it doesn’t matter if even Italy has a bigger economy than Russia. German business interests would never allow it. American hegemony is long gone, maybe we don’t need it anymore or ever even did. But let me tell you, there’s some major fallout coming from watching this happen. It’s the old ounce of prevention for a pound of cure. We’re just kicking the can down the road if we do nothing and eventually the costs will be magnitudes greater.
I’ve spent years working in that part of the world solving problems and I am beyond surprised that it’s gotten to this point, it’s a surreal scenario that is one step away from worst case. The repercussions are bigger than most people realize, and the old man in Washington has done a shitty job explaining them to the American people.
* Driving down the oil price isn’t going to bother Putin. In 2014 oil fell from ~$100 bbl and didn’t get above 60 for four years. This is in addition to the sanctions for the first farcical invasion. Russia’s economy was hurt but it didn’t move the needle.
* Putin doesn’t care if it’s worse for the average Ivan. That’s not how the system is set up. Votes don’t matter in an oligarchic kleptocracy unless they belong to the oligarchs. And the oligarchs exist because Putin allows them to exist so long as they don’t meddle in politics.
* Euros besides those who know Russia (Baltics and Poland won’t scream because they don’t care enough. The (Western) Europeans are all in such precarious positions of power, with split electorates where a few percentage points puts the other parties in charge. They won’t do anything to harm themselves.
* The US has said they won’t cut Russia off from SWIFT and that’s one of the few things that will move the needle. Great strategy by sleepy Joe, tell them ahead of time that you won’t use the best non violent deterrent.
The way out is to cause the Russian oligarchs and middle class to suffer enough economic pain to put pressure on Putin to give up being Stalin 2.0 and recreating his shitty empire. Cut them off from the banking system and freeze/seize the assets of all his oligarch minions. That’s it, threat over. -
Biden is going to hurt Putin financially then turn around and buy 500,000,000 barrels of oil at $120 per.
Oh hurt me, hurt me -
Joey likes to see Russian oilfield workers employed more than American oilfield workers.
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Putin never called me a terrorist or wanted me denied medical treatment
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Putin didn't shut down my business
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Honest question. What moves could be made to stop the bleeding, if any, at this point?RatherBeBrewing said:
Nothing wrong with caring about the US as top priority. I’m the same way.WestlinnDuck said:
Since I'm an American, I like America First takes. If the Euros don't like Putin messing in their backyard, then they should man up. Their combined economies are multiple times as large as Russia. Relying on Russia for their energy is just as smart as relying on the chicoms for all our drugs and then funding their gain of function research on bat viruses at a substandard bio lab.RatherBeBrewing said:Reading through this thread and it’s funny to me how Americentric all these takes are. I don’t blame y’all. The British are the same way, thinking it’s about them and bringing their internal politics into this. The Germans don’t care as much, they got their discount Russian gas pipeline and checked out. The French are playing the heroic part of diplomat since the others don’t care and are letting them pretend they’re a big boy. Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why.
Anyway, the American transition to becoming a nation of pussies is almost complete. Old Bush started it when presented a golden opportunity he ignored, Clinton was lazy and thought it was over, other Bush or whoever called the shots at least had some balls but traded in their chips to a more cunning player, Obama completely fucked it up worse than any of them, Trump only had four years or he would have rivaled him, and Biden is trying but he’s out of his element and that’s the nicest thing I can say about his entire existence. Magic underwear Romney was partially right, and everyone laughed at him. Never thought I’d see the day.
At the same time, there are high stakes here. The Euros aren’t going to do shit, it doesn’t matter if even Italy has a bigger economy than Russia. German business interests would never allow it. American hegemony is long gone, maybe we don’t need it anymore or ever even did. But let me tell you, there’s some major fallout coming from watching this happen. It’s the old ounce of prevention for a pound of cure. We’re just kicking the can down the road if we do nothing and eventually the costs will be magnitudes greater.
I’ve spent years working in that part of the world solving problems and I am beyond surprised that it’s gotten to this point, it’s a surreal scenario that is one step away from worst case. The repercussions are bigger than most people realize, and the old man in Washington has done a shitty job explaining them to the American people.
Nevermind. You answered above. -
First off, much like a strip club owner, I love the Poles. They’re one of the few countries in Europe that doesn’t have their head up their ass. Krakow is a very underrated city to visit, I’d love to go again. They are the poster child of recovery after being under Moscow’s less than benevolent rule.RoadTrip said:
Damn, now these are some takes. Could you please expand on the bolded above? Also, why are you so harsh on the Polocks?RatherBeBrewing said:
Nothing wrong with caring about the US as top priority. I’m the same way.WestlinnDuck said:
Since I'm an American, I like America First takes. If the Euros don't like Putin messing in their backyard, then they should man up. Their combined economies are multiple times as large as Russia. Relying on Russia for their energy is just as smart as relying on the chicoms for all our drugs and then funding their gain of function research on bat viruses at a substandard bio lab.RatherBeBrewing said:Reading through this thread and it’s funny to me how Americentric all these takes are. I don’t blame y’all. The British are the same way, thinking it’s about them and bringing their internal politics into this. The Germans don’t care as much, they got their discount Russian gas pipeline and checked out. The French are playing the heroic part of diplomat since the others don’t care and are letting them pretend they’re a big boy. Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why.
Anyway, the American transition to becoming a nation of pussies is almost complete. Old Bush started it when presented a golden opportunity he ignored, Clinton was lazy and thought it was over, other Bush or whoever called the shots at least had some balls but traded in their chips to a more cunning player, Obama completely fucked it up worse than any of them, Trump only had four years or he would have rivaled him, and Biden is trying but he’s out of his element and that’s the nicest thing I can say about his entire existence. Magic underwear Romney was partially right, and everyone laughed at him. Never thought I’d see the day.
At the same time, there are high stakes here. The Euros aren’t going to do shit, it doesn’t matter if even Italy has a bigger economy than Russia. German business interests would never allow it. American hegemony is long gone, maybe we don’t need it anymore or ever even did. But let me tell you, there’s some major fallout coming from watching this happen. It’s the old ounce of prevention for a pound of cure. We’re just kicking the can down the road if we do nothing and eventually the costs will be magnitudes greater.
I’ve spent years working in that part of the world solving problems and I am beyond surprised that it’s gotten to this point, it’s a surreal scenario that is one step away from worst case. The repercussions are bigger than most people realize, and the old man in Washington has done a shitty job explaining them to the American people.
"Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why."
Second, on some consequences and why many Americans are unaware of the shockwaves this unleashes. I know brevity is not my strong suit, you’ll regret asking, my apologies etc:
1. Ukraine’s population has declined from the 50+ million it had in the 1990s, but it’s still big by European standards. It’s about the same as the combined populations of Czechia, Slovakia, Finland, Hungary, Belarus, Lithuania, Moldova, Latvia, and Estonia. Kiev alone has three million people without including the million plus in the suburbs or all the undocumented refugees. The only other non-Russian cities in Europe with over 3 million people are London, Berlin, and Madrid. Having ~40 million people from an already poor nation that borders the EU and NATO be at war is less than ideal.
2. Ukraine is the second biggest exporter of grain in the northern hemisphere behind the US. Their rich farmland was modernized after the asinine collectivism of the USSR and was still just scratching the surface. Something like 1/5 to 1/4 of the worlds grain export and the biggest exporter of seed/vegetable oils. That’s what poor countries eat. Bangladesh, Egypt, Libya, Malaysia, Indonesia rely on Ukraine as their main source of imported grain. China is a big importer of food. That’s just what the world needs, more instability in those places. I wasn’t aware of this until recently, but Ukraine produces 90% of the world’s neon, which is necessary for the lasers that cut the little lines into computer chips and allow Moore’s Law to cling to existence. Chip shortages are already fucking annoying, at this rate a ten year old Toyota Tacoma will be worth more than a solid gold one.
3. They still export weapons. Not diversified enough to survive on their own, but we’re talking big ticket items they’ve been nice enough to not sell to the people we don’t want to have them. Stealth radars, guidance systems, helicopter engines, etc. The Paki/Indian sides are both supplied, and a big client are the Saudis. The Iranian wet dream: Yuzhmash, which used to manufacture the SS-24 ICBM. 230,000 pounds including 10 nuclear warheads, nearly 7,000 mile range, accurate to within a football field even if you detonate 1000 tons of TNT next to it. They were still making the civilian version of the SS-18 Satan for going to the ISS.
3. Speaking of bad no-no weapons, Putin is always full of shit so when he said this I didn’t take it seriously - Ukraine has everything needed to make new nukes. The only reason I even mention that is because public opinion there has shifted dramatically from not wanting anything to do with it after Chernobyl to the majority wanting them as a deterrent. One of their top diplomats basically said to the Germans let them into NATO or they will need to arm themselves with nuclear weapons. I feel bad for anyone who hasn’t seen Russian TV, it’s a trip. All of it is state sanctioned propaganda, but when they’re not talking about destroying the US they make it seem like Wile E Coyote, Darth Vader, and Gargamel are on their Southern border ready to blow up the Chernobyl sarcophagus and stand there with fans to waft radiation to their innocent Smurf kingdom.
4. I’m a bit surprised Ukraine hasn’t gone rogue earlier. The people there are really naive when it comes to world relations. They think that if they behave like the better off Western countries that they’ll be accepted, economically improve, and will be protected. They jump at every UN peacekeeping mission or US desert boondoggle, try to ape whatever the EU does, etc. Pretty soon they’re going to realize that the liberal Western democracies are full of shit and dancing for IMF loans that their corrupt politicians skim half of isn’t working for them.
5. Call me a nostalgic Pollyanna, but there seemed to be something just in the world order Europe had for my lifetime. Allowing Putin to have his Crimean Anschluss and then some Sudetenland seems very 1930s to me. That chubby little round faced rascal isn’t going to stop, and the threat to the world of order collapsing in Russia is a danger magnitudes greater than Ukraine collapsing. -
Add in what it signals to the CCP about invading Taiwan...RatherBeBrewing said:
First off, much like a strip club owner, I love the Poles. They’re one of the few countries in Europe that doesn’t have their head up their ass. Krakow is a very underrated city to visit, I’d love to go again. They are the poster child of recovery after being under Moscow’s less than benevolent rule.RoadTrip said:
Damn, now these are some takes. Could you please expand on the bolded above? Also, why are you so harsh on the Polocks?RatherBeBrewing said:
Nothing wrong with caring about the US as top priority. I’m the same way.WestlinnDuck said:
Since I'm an American, I like America First takes. If the Euros don't like Putin messing in their backyard, then they should man up. Their combined economies are multiple times as large as Russia. Relying on Russia for their energy is just as smart as relying on the chicoms for all our drugs and then funding their gain of function research on bat viruses at a substandard bio lab.RatherBeBrewing said:Reading through this thread and it’s funny to me how Americentric all these takes are. I don’t blame y’all. The British are the same way, thinking it’s about them and bringing their internal politics into this. The Germans don’t care as much, they got their discount Russian gas pipeline and checked out. The French are playing the heroic part of diplomat since the others don’t care and are letting them pretend they’re a big boy. Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why.
Anyway, the American transition to becoming a nation of pussies is almost complete. Old Bush started it when presented a golden opportunity he ignored, Clinton was lazy and thought it was over, other Bush or whoever called the shots at least had some balls but traded in their chips to a more cunning player, Obama completely fucked it up worse than any of them, Trump only had four years or he would have rivaled him, and Biden is trying but he’s out of his element and that’s the nicest thing I can say about his entire existence. Magic underwear Romney was partially right, and everyone laughed at him. Never thought I’d see the day.
At the same time, there are high stakes here. The Euros aren’t going to do shit, it doesn’t matter if even Italy has a bigger economy than Russia. German business interests would never allow it. American hegemony is long gone, maybe we don’t need it anymore or ever even did. But let me tell you, there’s some major fallout coming from watching this happen. It’s the old ounce of prevention for a pound of cure. We’re just kicking the can down the road if we do nothing and eventually the costs will be magnitudes greater.
I’ve spent years working in that part of the world solving problems and I am beyond surprised that it’s gotten to this point, it’s a surreal scenario that is one step away from worst case. The repercussions are bigger than most people realize, and the old man in Washington has done a shitty job explaining them to the American people.
"Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why."
Second, on some consequences and why many Americans are unaware of the shockwaves this unleashes. I know brevity is not my strong suit, you’ll regret asking, my apologies etc:
1. Ukraine’s population has declined from the 50+ million it had in the 1990s, but it’s still big by European standards. It’s about the same as the combined populations of Czechia, Slovakia, Finland, Hungary, Belarus, Lithuania, Moldova, Latvia, and Estonia. Kiev alone has three million people without including the million plus in the suburbs or all the undocumented refugees. The only other non-Russian cities in Europe with over 3 million people are London, Berlin, and Madrid. Having ~40 million people from an already poor nation that borders the EU and NATO be at war is less than ideal.
2. Ukraine is the second biggest exporter of grain in the northern hemisphere behind the US. Their rich farmland was modernized after the asinine collectivism of the USSR and was still just scratching the surface. Something like 1/5 to 1/4 of the worlds grain export and the biggest exporter of seed/vegetable oils. That’s what poor countries eat. Bangladesh, Egypt, Libya, Malaysia, Indonesia rely on Ukraine as their main source of imported grain. China is a big importer of food. That’s just what the world needs, more instability in those places. I wasn’t aware of this until recently, but Ukraine produces 90% of the world’s neon, which is necessary for the lasers that cut the little lines into computer chips and allow Moore’s Law to cling to existence. Chip shortages are already fucking annoying, at this rate a ten year old Toyota Tacoma will be worth more than a solid gold one.
3. They still export weapons. Not diversified enough to survive on their own, but we’re talking big ticket items they’ve been nice enough to not sell to the people we don’t want to have them. Stealth radars, guidance systems, helicopter engines, etc. The Paki/Indian sides are both supplied, and a big client are the Saudis. The Iranian wet dream: Yuzhmash, which used to manufacture the SS-24 ICBM. 230,000 pounds including 10 nuclear warheads, nearly 7,000 mile range, accurate to within a football field even if you detonate 1000 tons of TNT next to it. They were still making the civilian version of the SS-18 Satan for going to the ISS.
3. Speaking of bad no-no weapons, Putin is always full of shit so when he said this I didn’t take it seriously - Ukraine has everything needed to make new nukes. The only reason I even mention that is because public opinion there has shifted dramatically from not wanting anything to do with it after Chernobyl to the majority wanting them as a deterrent. One of their top diplomats basically said to the Germans let them into NATO or they will need to arm themselves with nuclear weapons. I feel bad for anyone who hasn’t seen Russian TV, it’s a trip. All of it is state sanctioned propaganda, but when they’re not talking about destroying the US they make it seem like Wile E Coyote, Darth Vader, and Gargamel are on their Southern border ready to blow up the Chernobyl sarcophagus and stand there with fans to waft radiation to their innocent Smurf kingdom.
4. I’m a bit surprised Ukraine hasn’t gone rogue earlier. The people there are really naive when it comes to world relations. They think that if they behave like the better off Western countries that they’ll be accepted, economically improve, and will be protected. They jump at every UN peacekeeping mission or US desert boondoggle, try to ape whatever the EU does, etc. Pretty soon they’re going to realize that the liberal Western democracies are full of shit and dancing for IMF loans that their corrupt politicians skim half of isn’t working for them.
5. Call me a nostalgic Pollyanna, but there seemed to be something just in the world order Europe had for my lifetime. Allowing Putin to have his Crimean Anschluss and then some Sudetenland seems very 1930s to me. That chubby little round faced rascal isn’t going to stop, and the threat to the world of order collapsing in Russia is a danger magnitudes greater than Ukraine collapsing.
Ybe btw. -
I think it’s too fucked by now. The time to act was 2008 or 2014.Kaepsknee said:
Honest question. What moves could be made to stop the bleeding, if any, at this point?RatherBeBrewing said:
Nothing wrong with caring about the US as top priority. I’m the same way.WestlinnDuck said:
Since I'm an American, I like America First takes. If the Euros don't like Putin messing in their backyard, then they should man up. Their combined economies are multiple times as large as Russia. Relying on Russia for their energy is just as smart as relying on the chicoms for all our drugs and then funding their gain of function research on bat viruses at a substandard bio lab.RatherBeBrewing said:Reading through this thread and it’s funny to me how Americentric all these takes are. I don’t blame y’all. The British are the same way, thinking it’s about them and bringing their internal politics into this. The Germans don’t care as much, they got their discount Russian gas pipeline and checked out. The French are playing the heroic part of diplomat since the others don’t care and are letting them pretend they’re a big boy. Poland is pissed, and as soon as they wipe the grease of their hands and figure out how to use the two factor authorization thingy to unlock their phone they will explain why.
Anyway, the American transition to becoming a nation of pussies is almost complete. Old Bush started it when presented a golden opportunity he ignored, Clinton was lazy and thought it was over, other Bush or whoever called the shots at least had some balls but traded in their chips to a more cunning player, Obama completely fucked it up worse than any of them, Trump only had four years or he would have rivaled him, and Biden is trying but he’s out of his element and that’s the nicest thing I can say about his entire existence. Magic underwear Romney was partially right, and everyone laughed at him. Never thought I’d see the day.
At the same time, there are high stakes here. The Euros aren’t going to do shit, it doesn’t matter if even Italy has a bigger economy than Russia. German business interests would never allow it. American hegemony is long gone, maybe we don’t need it anymore or ever even did. But let me tell you, there’s some major fallout coming from watching this happen. It’s the old ounce of prevention for a pound of cure. We’re just kicking the can down the road if we do nothing and eventually the costs will be magnitudes greater.
I’ve spent years working in that part of the world solving problems and I am beyond surprised that it’s gotten to this point, it’s a surreal scenario that is one step away from worst case. The repercussions are bigger than most people realize, and the old man in Washington has done a shitty job explaining them to the American people.
Nevermind. You answered above.
No real opposition in Russia despite how many Russians are tired of Putin. Their beef is that 3/4 of them are still in poverty and he raised the retirement age to one they don’t live long enough to reach, not the repression or the wars. In fact, most older people love the return to Soviet style dictatorship. I’ve had a usually very smart and reasonable person in Moscow explain to me how he missed the days when roads were built well. Because if the people building the roads did a shitty job one of them might get shot as punishment, but if the road was great they’d get a vacation in a nice Black Sea resort so it was fair.
Get drastic and make the average Russian think it’s 1996 all over, but who knows if that will work.
