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Comments
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I have come around to agreeing with this view, overcoming a huge emotional bias on my part in the process. But at today's prices it's hard to justify for at least 50% of the college-attending population.UW_Doog_Bot said:
*sigh
Re: data
Yes, let's normalize our inherently non-normal data for kurtosis and skew. The overwhelming majority of wealth made that drives up the averages is made by less than 5% of graduate earners.
Odds are those guys were going to be successful anyways so it's opportunity cost as I mentioned.
Use the mode instead of the mean.
Now reverse the process for non-graduates to adjust for people that college would have never benefited anyways.
Aka you can't fix stupid.
We haven't even talked about market projection and demographics out over tim.
TLDR YMMV and correlation ain't causation.
There is too much money in financial aid right now that draws too many people into the game. Then again, you don't want it to be a rich man's game either. There is a rough cut people use to describe what it used to be and what it is now by referencing Harvard: 50 years ago Harvard was 75% rich kids of varying degrees of intelligence (see the Kennedys) and 25% brilliant kids. Today, it's flipped, and even Harvard admissions references the "happy bottom 25%", meaning wealthy and hooked kids who will graduate in the bottom 25% and be happy just to have the degree as a social credential.
I often wonder if we need to go back to that. Let the rich have their spots because in the end they pay for everything, but make sure there is a mechanism to find and develop talent coming from various socio-economic backgrounds. There are too many "middle bell curve" kids spending money - the government's or their parent's - going to college and barely getting anything out of it.
The thing that makes this topic difficult is the same thing that makes most topics difficult: subtlety. There are soft reasons for getting an education that goes beyond ROI. There's the experience of it and the other things that are harder to pinpoint. If you go to school with smart kids, that will rub off too. There's little question that it can make you better all around even if you're not that gifted to begin with. But at what cost?
There are legions of kids going to college on mom & dad's dime who are entirely checking the box. I mean, check the fucking box and are barely more intellectually developed than when they got there. Education can be a great thing but you have to actually get one and you have to make it so that it is economically feasible. I myself don't care about the 4-year ROI measure. I play the the long game. But you can't be saddled with six-figure debt for a bachelor's degree.
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Grant Heard please. Worked with Deboer at Indiana. Currently the Co-OC/Wr coach at Indiana. Recruited DK as well. Only making 425k.HFNY said:The question is, who do DeBoer / Grubb hire as WR coach now? Is it possible a WR coach can walk (coach) and chew gum (recruit well) at the same time?
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I'd be happy to see him paid $650k but not sure if DeBoer would make him Co-OC?
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I'm intrigued. Looks like he was also the WR coach at Ole Miss from 2012-2016 so he was Stringfellow's position coach there.backthepack said:
Grant Heard please. Worked with Deboer at Indiana. Currently the Co-OC/Wr coach at Indiana. Recruited DK as well. Only making 425k.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Heard -
College is simply associated with social prestige and higher earnings. Even if college grads don't always make more money, it doesn't really matter. Mass higher education is a social norm in the developed world and middle-class people will do whatever it takes to maintain social prestige.creepycoug said:
I have come around to agreeing with this view, overcoming a huge emotional bias on my part in the process. But at today's prices it's hard to justify for at least 50% of the college-attending population.
There is too much money in financial aid right now that draws too many people into the game. Then again, you don't want it to be a rich man's game either. There is a rough cut people use to describe what it used to be and what it is now by referencing Harvard: 50 years ago Harvard was 75% rich kids of varying degrees of intelligence (see the Kennedys) and 25% brilliant kids. Today, it's flipped, and even Harvard admissions references the "happy bottom 25%", meaning wealthy and hooked kids who will graduate in the bottom 25% and be happy just to have the degree as a social credential.
I often wonder if we need to go back to that. Let the rich have their spots because in the end they pay for everything, but make sure there is a mechanism to find and develop talent coming from various socio-economic backgrounds. There are too many "middle bell curve" kids spending money - the government's or their parent's - going to college and barely getting anything out of it.
The thing that makes this topic difficult is the same thing that makes most topics difficult: subtlety. There are soft reasons for getting an education that goes beyond ROI. There's the experience of it and the other things that are harder to pinpoint. If you go to school with smart kids, that will rub off too. There's little question that it can make you better all around even if you're not that gifted to begin with. But at what cost?
There are legions of kids going to college on mom & dad's dime who are entirely checking the box. I mean, check the fucking box and are barely more intellectually developed than when they got there. Education can be a great thing but you have to actually get one and you have to make it so that it is economically feasible. I myself don't care about the 4-year ROI measure. I play the the long game. But you can't be saddled with six-figure debt for a bachelor's degree.
Most jobs, even prestigious jobs, don't actually require discrete and measurable cognitive skills. They do however, prefer people with higher credentials because of socitety-wide academic credential inflation.
College is also preferable for middle-class mating. Not just for the opportunity for to hook up with enormous varieties of potential partners, but also for social prestige thereafter. Try getting an attractive, upwardly-mobile girlfriend without a college degree and decent-seeming job. People with more education also tend to have more successful marriages and create more stable families. College tends to be the crucible of this social process.
Lastly, the environment of college is considered inherently pleasurable by many people.
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Hold on, so, it's not a joke, you actually are a night stock boy? Union gig for those sweet bennies? (ILTCTB)theknowledge said:
Yup, thats me. Stacking laundry soap. I also have a healthy 410K, I bought a house and property with a pretty cheap mortgage, paid in cash for the build of another house on my property that my mom retired in and outside of my mortgage I have no debt. I'm certainly not rich but after being a drunk and a coke head for my early adulthood I haven't been entirely stupid with what money I did make. You don't need to go to college if you're not ashamed of stacking cans, digging ditches, building fences, pouring drinks or shoveling shit for a living. All of which I've done at one point or another. Someone's got to do it. Maybe Biden will come through like he said and get that debt off your record. I don't have that problem. I know, take it to the Pump. -
I bet you thought this wouldn’t backfire in your fucking face. Sad!ntxduck said:
Whatever you got to tell yourself to not face the reality of earlier poor decisions, man -
I think most of us enjoyed the middle-class mating, but let’s not bash the lower-class banging that direct-to-workforce teens partake in.Kingdome_Urinals said:
College is also preferable for middle-class mating.
Lastly, the environment of college is considered inherently pleasurable by many people.
Being around a bunch of 18-24ish year olds who are living away from their parents for the first time is an education in social development and teaches you important life skills. You don’t have to go to a four year university to get them all, but it’s an unspoken part of the package. Most middle-class American 18 year olds are sheltered, naive, and don’t understand shit about how the world works - college is like the real world, but with training wheels and re-dos. -
- Thomas Ford, UW Offensive Analyst
- Jermaine Kearse, Former UW receiver
- Joel Filani, Texas Tech Receivers Coach
- Kirby Moore, Fresno State Offensive Coordinator
- Tyler Osborne, Sacramento State Wide receivers coach
Adams was a key figure in recruiting sophomore wide receivers Jalen McMillan and Rome Odunze to UW. The two former four-star wideouts will likely follow Adams to Oregon. Four-star wide receiver Germie Bernard headlined UW’s class on early signing day in December, but his future is certainly up in the air following the Adams news, along with the rest of the Huskies’ pass-catchers. - Thomas Ford, UW Offensive Analyst
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Thomas Ford would be fun because FSP WRs would still be encouraged to leave the state. Also, Ford recently liked a commitment tweet by a kid who picked UCLA over UWChillyDawg said:- Thomas Ford, UW Offensive Analyst
- Jermaine Kearse, Former UW receiver
- Joel Filani, Texas Tech Receivers Coach
- Kirby Moore, Fresno State Offensive Coordinator
- Tyler Osborne, Sacramento State Wide receivers coach
- Thomas Ford, UW Offensive Analyst
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Thomas Ford deleted a bunch of UW shit from his Twitter so hopefully he’s gone and next we can tell his douchebag brother to fuck off too.bananasnblondes said:
Thomas Ford would be fun because FSP WRs would still be encouraged to leave the state. Also, Ford recently liked a commitment tweet by a kid who picked UCLA over UW -
And Filani is apparently headed to WSU.
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Indiana is the better job.backthepack said:
Grant Heard please. Worked with Deboer at Indiana. Currently the Co-OC/Wr coach at Indiana. Recruited DK as well. Only making 425k. -
I don’t brew anything beyond cold brew coffee. I fiddled with beer for a while. It was an interesting concept, at the time I used to drink and appreciate it, and I’m always of the notion that I can do something better than almost everyone else if I try. My beer was actually pretty good despite me humbly underselling it, but I didn’t have the passion or interest to pursue the hobby any further. Instead, I got into playing tennis. Worse for the knees, but much better for the liver.UW_Doog_Bot said:
I’m sharing this so you don’t have to feel bad about the lack of correlation between your username and the results that it yields.
I’ll give you credit for attempting to mention the hidden variables any data like this will entail. The people who get college degrees were already likelier to have higher incomes based on their socio-economic background, intelligence, ambition, primary education, desire to seek full employment, opportunity, regional differences, and a variety of other factors that are so numerous it would make creating two sets of data to compare nearly impossible.
I’ll also add that I agree that too many people are going to college, the return on a degree has declined, some degrees are not worth the opportunity cost - all these obvious things that college grads want to crown themselves as champions of the proletariat for agreeing with. As if it costs their diploma prestige points that they’re valiantly sacrificing.
I could (don’t worry, I won’t) explain the various statistics that show I’m right. We could look at the opportunity costs associated with not attending college or required of getting a blue collar job with a comparable income to a mid level bachelors degree, the time value of money, social costs such as the likelihood of marrying someone with similar educational status and the resulting doubling of what you perceive to be a small income gap, financial literacy the likelier physical toll of a blue collar job and the effect on life expectancy or healthcare costs - and many more boring things.
I never took Brevity 121, it wasn’t a required pre-req, so I suppressed my desire to explain even more. Like a Trading Places Duke Brothers style experiment I had in mind, or using Plinko as a visual example of the doors that become closed to those who don’t pursue higher education. Maybe the status quo will change in the next 20 years and you’ll be right. It’s very possible - just ask any Nebraska, Washington, or Virginia Tech fan. -
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I didn't read this, but are you taking the gloves off?RatherBeBrewing said:
I don’t brew anything beyond cold brew coffee. I fiddled with beer for a while. It was an interesting concept, at the time I used to drink and appreciate it, and I’m always of the notion that I can do something better than almost everyone else if I try. My beer was actually pretty good despite me humbly underselling it, but I didn’t have the passion or interest to pursue the hobby any further. Instead, I got into playing tennis. Worse for the knees, but much better for the liver.
I’m sharing this so you don’t have to feel bad about the lack of correlation between your username and the results that it yields.
I’ll give you credit for attempting to mention the hidden variables any data like this will entail. The people who get college degrees were already likelier to have higher incomes based on their socio-economic background, intelligence, ambition, primary education, desire to seek full employment, opportunity, regional differences, and a variety of other factors that are so numerous it would make creating two sets of data to compare nearly impossible.
I’ll also add that I agree that too many people are going to college, the return on a degree has declined, some degrees are not worth the opportunity cost - all these obvious things that college grads want to crown themselves as champions of the proletariat for agreeing with. As if it costs their diploma prestige points that they’re valiantly sacrificing.
I could (don’t worry, I won’t) explain the various statistics that show I’m right. We could look at the opportunity costs associated with not attending college or required of getting a blue collar job with a comparable income to a mid level bachelors degree, the time value of money, social costs such as the likelihood of marrying someone with similar educational status and the resulting doubling of what you perceive to be a small income gap, financial literacy the likelier physical toll of a blue collar job and the effect on life expectancy or healthcare costs - and many more boring things.
I never took Brevity 121, it wasn’t a required pre-req, so I suppressed my desire to explain even more. Like a Trading Places Duke Brothers style experiment I had in mind, or using Plinko as a visual example of the doors that become closed to those who don’t pursue higher education. Maybe the status quo will change in the next 20 years and you’ll be right. It’s very possible - just ask any Nebraska, Washington, or Virginia Tech fan.
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I agree with pretty much all of that. I used to say all the time that I don't care where my Ds meet their future husbands as long as it's not in HS. Just playing the rough odds there.Kingdome_Urinals said:
College is simply associated with social prestige and higher earnings. Even if college grads don't always make more money, it doesn't really matter. Mass higher education is a social norm in the developed world and middle-class people will do whatever it takes to maintain social prestige.
Most jobs, even prestigious jobs, don't actually require discrete and measurable cognitive skills. They do however, prefer people with higher credentials because of socitety-wide academic credential inflation.
College is also preferable for middle-class mating. Not just for the opportunity for to hook up with enormous varieties of potential partners, but also for social prestige thereafter. Try getting an attractive, upwardly-mobile girlfriend without a college degree and decent-seeming job. People with more education also tend to have more successful marriages and create more stable families. College tends to be the crucible of this social process.
Lastly, the environment of college is considered inherently pleasurable by many people.
That said, a seriously earnest kid who wants to start a plumbing business (as in, eventually having people do the actual work for him while he invests capital and directs traffic) is preferable to me than a kid who spends 4 years drunk at Cuog, learns next to nothing, scrapes by and confuses the fact that he was rush chairman of his frat with prestige. He ain't got no fucking prestige, and the future plumber is already well ahead of him. -
Chinned for Brevity 121.RatherBeBrewing said:
I never took Brevity 121, it wasn’t a required pre-req, so I suppressed my desire to explain even more. Like a Trading Places Duke Brothers style experiment I had in mind, or using Plinko as a visual example of the doors that become closed to those who don’t pursue higher education. Maybe the status quo will change in the next 20 years and you’ll be right. It’s very possible - just ask any Nebraska, Washington, or Virginia Tech fan.
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Yeah, a lot of kids are completely lost at college and have no appreciation for the opportunities they have. I don't think college is necessarily worth it financially and if a kid doesn't want to go they shouldn't.creepycoug said:
I agree with pretty much all of that. I used to say all the time that I don't care where my Ds meet their future husbands as long as it's not in HS. Just playing the rough odds there.
That said, a seriously earnest kid who wants to start a plumbing business (as in, eventually having people do the actual work for him while he invests capital and directs traffic) is preferable to me than a kid who spends 4 years drunk at Cuog, learns next to nothing, scrapes by and confuses the fact that he was rush chairman of his frat with prestige. He ain't got no fucking prestige, and the future plumber is already well ahead of him.
However, in the generally widespread absence of high-wage blue collar work many young people don't see a lot of great options out there. If you go to college you might feel like you're on the right track, at least for a few years.
There's always a few people in the tech industry who didn't go to college, and it's not always necessary for that, but the money, research, and personal networks are clustered around the high prestige institutions.
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There are actually a lot of high wage blue collar careers available, the issue is finding a kid who knows which end of a screwdriver to use or is at least willing to learn.Kingdome_Urinals said:
Yeah, a lot of kids are completely lost at college and have no appreciation for the opportunities they have. I don't think college is necessarily worth it financially and if a kid doesn't want to go they shouldn't.
However, in the generally widespread absence of high-wage blue collar work many young people don't see a lot of great options out there. If you go to college you might feel like you're on the right track, at least for a few years.
There's always a few people in the tech industry who didn't go to college, and it's not always necessary for that, but the money, research, and personal networks are clustered around the high prestige institutions.
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Not sure how everyone gets an A…here is your safe space…mom, dad, and the govt foot the bill for you to eat, drink, and be merry without putting any real work in…just sign some papers and somebody will pay it back later…is anything like the real world, although some think they can print their way into changing the world into that…but that’s a topic for the tug.RatherBeBrewing said:
I think most of us enjoyed the middle-class mating, but let’s not bash the lower-class banging that direct-to-workforce teens partake in.
Being around a bunch of 18-24ish year olds who are living away from their parents for the first time is an education in social development and teaches you important life skills. You don’t have to go to a four year university to get them all, but it’s an unspoken part of the package. Most middle-class American 18 year olds are sheltered, naive, and don’t understand shit about how the world works - college is like the real world, but with training wheels and re-dos.
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Chinned for not being a ritard and because I find your blend of shit poasting and backhanded insults entertaining. You remind me of my Jewish property manager.RatherBeBrewing said:
I don’t brew anything beyond cold brew coffee. I fiddled with beer for a while. It was an interesting concept, at the time I used to drink and appreciate it, and I’m always of the notion that I can do something better than almost everyone else if I try. My beer was actually pretty good despite me humbly underselling it, but I didn’t have the passion or interest to pursue the hobby any further. Instead, I got into playing tennis. Worse for the knees, but much better for the liver.
I’m sharing this so you don’t have to feel bad about the lack of correlation between your username and the results that it yields.
I’ll give you credit for attempting to mention the hidden variables any data like this will entail. The people who get college degrees were already likelier to have higher incomes based on their socio-economic background, intelligence, ambition, primary education, desire to seek full employment, opportunity, regional differences, and a variety of other factors that are so numerous it would make creating two sets of data to compare nearly impossible.
I’ll also add that I agree that too many people are going to college, the return on a degree has declined, some degrees are not worth the opportunity cost - all these obvious things that college grads want to crown themselves as champions of the proletariat for agreeing with. As if it costs their diploma prestige points that they’re valiantly sacrificing.
I could (don’t worry, I won’t) explain the various statistics that show I’m right. We could look at the opportunity costs associated with not attending college or required of getting a blue collar job with a comparable income to a mid level bachelors degree, the time value of money, social costs such as the likelihood of marrying someone with similar educational status and the resulting doubling of what you perceive to be a small income gap, financial literacy the likelier physical toll of a blue collar job and the effect on life expectancy or healthcare costs - and many more boring things.
I never took Brevity 121, it wasn’t a required pre-req, so I suppressed my desire to explain even more. Like a Trading Places Duke Brothers style experiment I had in mind, or using Plinko as a visual example of the doors that become closed to those who don’t pursue higher education. Maybe the status quo will change in the next 20 years and you’ll be right. It’s very possible - just ask any Nebraska, Washington, or Virginia Tech fan.
I'd actually love a decent in depth not shit thred on the subject. Feel free to statistics away. I'm not emotionally invested in the outcome unlike some who may be triggered because of their own failures.
The point was always YMMV. If you went to a good school and got a good degree to make good money it was probably worth it. That said, making fun of someone who recognized they should probably be a blue collar worker instead of spending money they didn't have to become a barista is dumb. It's the type of thing a barista with an art degree and $60k in student loan debt does.
Like I said, some people can't seem to tell the difference. -
Just in case anyone was wondering, this guy is taking the coaching change in a very calm and reasoned manner -
It’s okay. We got the black community covered.
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Lol. Jesus christHoustonHusky said:
Not sure how everyone gets an A…here is your safe space…mom, dad, and the govt foot the bill for you to eat, drink, and be merry without putting any real work in…just sign some papers and somebody will pay it back later…is anything like the real world, although some think they can print their way into changing the world into that…but that’s a topic for the tug. -
Is there a fan more racist than SubK?bananasnblondes said:
Just in case anyone was wondering, this guy is taking the coaching change in a very calm and reasoned manner -
Has anyone met him in real life? I will assume anyone who has was only a visitor at the mental institution.GreenRiverGatorz said:
Is there a fan more racist than SubK? -
I think we have a few residents here.BleachedAnusDawg said:
Has anyone met him in real life? I will assume anyone who has was only a visitor at the mental institution. -
Yes, but he is the most suicidal/racist. He takes the cake for that categoryGreenRiverGatorz said:
Is there a fan more racist than SubK? -
The trades are great and so are the people who work in the them. Many of them went into the military after HS. Plumbers, basement flood mitigation, electricians, welders, flooring guys, carpenters, concrete / pavers etc etc. Apprentice and have no debt with the potential to start their own company by age 30.
One of the larger educational mistakes the USA made was, when Teachers Unions became greedier and more powerful, they took money / space away from the shop class teachers (and phys ed) to give it to themselves. That coincided with the SJW push of the last 20-25 years. So people like the Garfield Teacher who tried to do a Citizens Arrest on the WA State Legislature a decade ago and then wrote in the Seattle Times in 2020 that we need to defund the SPD by 50% get much more visibility while many of the kids he allegedly wants to help get the shaft because they aren't introduced to shop classes in HS. It's totally screwed up and unjust / unethical.
Most people aren't suited to code and coders invariably need someone to help them with their houses. Certain identity warriors talk about how there aren't enough CEOs who look like them but what about not enough tradespeople who look like them? They need to be the change they would like to see. It's so FS.
As for Junior Adams, Husky Football now has the chance to hire a better, more well-rounded coach. DeBoer better have the resources to do whatever it takes to upgrade the position because it is a vital part of DeBoer's offense vs. Jimmy Fake's 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense.
