Tesla buys $1.5 billion in Bitcoin

Can I buy food and gas with crypto?

doogie said:

On Craigslist, yes.

That's bartering, not purchasing. I can probably buy food on Craigslist with old baseball cards.

Goduckies said:

Still seams like a ponsi scheme to me

Why is that? I'm not sure I get the ponzi critique. I won't pretend to be a bitcoin expert, but it seems much more analogous to a precious metal/bullion. What are the ponzi elements of it?

My reasoning is that gold is useful. Bitcoin can be replaced at any time and go to zero easily. Most other investment vehicles are either a product or commodity. Bit coin is neither. It's biggest advantage was to be able to hide the transaction from the feds, but they can even track it now. Also the growth is not based on anything real. It's just demand rises because people hear about it. Very much like a ponzi scheme.

Goduckies said:

My reasoning is that gold is useful. Bitcoin can be replaced at any time and go to zero easily. Most other investment vehicles are either a product or commodity. Bit coin is neither. It's biggest advantage was to be able to hide the transaction from the feds, but they can even track it now. Also the growth is not based on anything real. It's just demand rises because people hear about it. Very much like a ponzi scheme.

I would say the only difference between gold and Crypto is that gold has a natural supply limit and thus scarcity.

Crypto? I have no idea. But it doesn’t sound like it.

creepycoug said:

Goduckies said:

My reasoning is that gold is useful. Bitcoin can be replaced at any time and go to zero easily. Most other investment vehicles are either a product or commodity. Bit coin is neither. It's biggest advantage was to be able to hide the transaction from the feds, but they can even track it now. Also the growth is not based on anything real. It's just demand rises because people hear about it. Very much like a ponzi scheme.

I would say the only difference between gold and Crypto is that gold has a natural supply limit and thus scarcity.

Crypto? I have no idea. But it doesn’t sound like it.

Different cryptos has different supply levels. Some are infinite. Some are set.

Goduckies said:

My reasoning is that gold is useful. Bitcoin can be replaced at any time and go to zero easily. Most other investment vehicles are either a product or commodity. Bit coin is neither. It's biggest advantage was to be able to hide the transaction from the feds, but they can even track it now. Also the growth is not based on anything real. It's just demand rises because people hear about it. Very much like a ponzi scheme.

I don't know if I agree that it can go to zero easily at this point. The amount of computing power involved in its mining, its decentralization, and the sheer volume of transactions gives it tremendous value. Value that can't be unwound by any one or even group of individuals. That gives it more permanence that any other non-commodity security. And sure, it's intrinsic value can be debated, though it certainly has some value given that it can be used to facilitate transactions in some corners of the internet much quicker than traditional currency. And that trend will only continue. How useful it becomes outside of just being an investment vehicle remains to be seen.

But that's all a bit moot. Because none of that really has anything to do with whether it's a ponzi scheme or not. Unless you're using that term very liberally and also think the entire fractional reserve banking system is a ponzi scheme. And I suppose some people do make that claim.

The scarcity issue with bitcoin is fine (there is a finite number of them) and the concept in theory is fine as a digital equivalent to gold.

My problem with bitcoin is two-fold. 1) The holders...5 Chinese companies generate over half of the new bitcoin...in theory its brilliant as a transfer of assets. China burns coal to generate a shiteton of electricity to mine bitcoin, sell it on the open market to a bunch of Westerners for $$$. The concentration of assets of it as well is not comforting...most of the bitcoin are held by a relatively small number of people . 2) Security. Have a breach where a bunch of bitcoin get "stolen" and you'll see a massive correction in the price. I'm not a computer security guy, but it seems like stealing bitcoin electronically is a heck of a lot easier than trying to make off with a ton of gold, and as price appreciates the creativity of the crooks trying to do it goes up exponentially.

With all of these assets they will go up in uncertain and/or money-printing times and go down when things are nice and stable. Seems like a good bet they won't be going down anytime soon...

backthepack said:

creepycoug said:

Goduckies said:

My reasoning is that gold is useful. Bitcoin can be replaced at any time and go to zero easily. Most other investment vehicles are either a product or commodity. Bit coin is neither. It's biggest advantage was to be able to hide the transaction from the feds, but they can even track it now. Also the growth is not based on anything real. It's just demand rises because people hear about it. Very much like a ponzi scheme.

I would say the only difference between gold and Crypto is that gold has a natural supply limit and thus scarcity.

Crypto? I have no idea. But it doesn’t sound like it.

Different cryptos has different supply levels. Some are infinite. Some are set.

Set how? By whom?

creepycoug said:

backthepack said:

creepycoug said:

Goduckies said:

My reasoning is that gold is useful. Bitcoin can be replaced at any time and go to zero easily. Most other investment vehicles are either a product or commodity. Bit coin is neither. It's biggest advantage was to be able to hide the transaction from the feds, but they can even track it now. Also the growth is not based on anything real. It's just demand rises because people hear about it. Very much like a ponzi scheme.

I would say the only difference between gold and Crypto is that gold has a natural supply limit and thus scarcity.

Crypto? I have no idea. But it doesn’t sound like it.

Different cryptos has different supply levels. Some are infinite. Some are set.

Set how? By whom?

The coders/creators of the currency. They set it how they want the crypto to behave.

GreenRiverGatorz said:

HoustonHusky said:

The scarcity issue with bitcoin is fine (there is a finite number of them) and the concept in theory is fine as a digital equivalent to gold.

My problem with bitcoin is two-fold. 1) The holders...5 Chinese companies generate over half of the new bitcoin...in theory its brilliant as a transfer of assets. China burns coal to generate a shiteton of electricity to mine bitcoin, sell it on the open market to a bunch of Westerners for $$$. The concentration of assets of it as well is not comforting...most of the bitcoin are held by a relatively small number of people . 2) Security. Have a breach where a bunch of bitcoin get "stolen" and you'll see a massive correction in the price. I'm not a computer security guy, but it seems like stealing bitcoin electronically is a heck of a lot easier than trying to make off with a ton of gold, and as price appreciates the creativity of the crooks trying to do it goes up exponentially.

With all of these assets they will go up in uncertain and/or money-printing times and go down when things are nice and stable. Seems like a good bet they won't be going down anytime soon...

Interesting point of discussion. We're probably equally clueless when it comes to technical matters of cyber security, but my impression has always been that bitcoin can only be hacked to the extent that an individual exchange allows it to be. Genuine question to any of our lurking comp sci nerds on the board, but is it any different than "hacking" someone's stock portfolio (and I realize I sound like a bad Hollywood screenwriter with how that question was posed)?

Now granted I'm sure Coinbase and Kraken and whatever other rinky-dink exchanges are out there lack the cyber security infrastructure of your Fidelitys and Vanguards. But I would also expect that as bitcoin becomes more mainstream that that vulnerability begins to correct itself.

Stock portfolios are guaranteed by SIPC for hacks and fraud etc bitcoin you are just screwed... no help desk.

Goduckies said:

Bob_C said:

Goduckies said:

And again what is the purpose of bit coin? To hide transactions... well it can be tracked now so that purpose is more useless. There are plenty of other ways to money that are less costly and volatile. Problem with bitcoin is once a sell off starts there is no downside protection if you have a limit placed and it drops 20 to 30% there will be a lot more sell offs and you may not get your price and be left holding the bag, so you can't even 100% protect yourself that way. Add in the fact that it never turns off in trading and can go south any time 247 and it is a very dangerous investment imo.

If it does become real competition for the dollar, which is plausible, what is preventing the US government from just deciding to shut it down? Not with laws, but by sabotage.

It's already being manipulated now by the chicoms

Are we talking bitcoin or election results?

I know - take that to the Tug

Goduckies said:

GreenRiverGatorz said:

HoustonHusky said:

The scarcity issue with bitcoin is fine (there is a finite number of them) and the concept in theory is fine as a digital equivalent to gold.

My problem with bitcoin is two-fold. 1) The holders...5 Chinese companies generate over half of the new bitcoin...in theory its brilliant as a transfer of assets. China burns coal to generate a shiteton of electricity to mine bitcoin, sell it on the open market to a bunch of Westerners for $$$. The concentration of assets of it as well is not comforting...most of the bitcoin are held by a relatively small number of people . 2) Security. Have a breach where a bunch of bitcoin get "stolen" and you'll see a massive correction in the price. I'm not a computer security guy, but it seems like stealing bitcoin electronically is a heck of a lot easier than trying to make off with a ton of gold, and as price appreciates the creativity of the crooks trying to do it goes up exponentially.

With all of these assets they will go up in uncertain and/or money-printing times and go down when things are nice and stable. Seems like a good bet they won't be going down anytime soon...

Interesting point of discussion. We're probably equally clueless when it comes to technical matters of cyber security, but my impression has always been that bitcoin can only be hacked to the extent that an individual exchange allows it to be. Genuine question to any of our lurking comp sci nerds on the board, but is it any different than "hacking" someone's stock portfolio (and I realize I sound like a bad Hollywood screenwriter with how that question was posed)?

Now granted I'm sure Coinbase and Kraken and whatever other rinky-dink exchanges are out there lack the cyber security infrastructure of your Fidelitys and Vanguards. But I would also expect that as bitcoin becomes more mainstream that that vulnerability begins to correct itself.

Stock portfolios are guaranteed by SIPC for hacks and fraud etc bitcoin you are just screwed... no help desk.

GUARANTEED by the SIPC

LOL

sure.gif

doogie said:

Goduckies said:

GreenRiverGatorz said:

HoustonHusky said:

The scarcity issue with bitcoin is fine (there is a finite number of them) and the concept in theory is fine as a digital equivalent to gold.

My problem with bitcoin is two-fold. 1) The holders...5 Chinese companies generate over half of the new bitcoin...in theory its brilliant as a transfer of assets. China burns coal to generate a shiteton of electricity to mine bitcoin, sell it on the open market to a bunch of Westerners for $$$. The concentration of assets of it as well is not comforting...most of the bitcoin are held by a relatively small number of people . 2) Security. Have a breach where a bunch of bitcoin get "stolen" and you'll see a massive correction in the price. I'm not a computer security guy, but it seems like stealing bitcoin electronically is a heck of a lot easier than trying to make off with a ton of gold, and as price appreciates the creativity of the crooks trying to do it goes up exponentially.

With all of these assets they will go up in uncertain and/or money-printing times and go down when things are nice and stable. Seems like a good bet they won't be going down anytime soon...

Interesting point of discussion. We're probably equally clueless when it comes to technical matters of cyber security, but my impression has always been that bitcoin can only be hacked to the extent that an individual exchange allows it to be. Genuine question to any of our lurking comp sci nerds on the board, but is it any different than "hacking" someone's stock portfolio (and I realize I sound like a bad Hollywood screenwriter with how that question was posed)?

Now granted I'm sure Coinbase and Kraken and whatever other rinky-dink exchanges are out there lack the cyber security infrastructure of your Fidelitys and Vanguards. But I would also expect that as bitcoin becomes more mainstream that that vulnerability begins to correct itself.

Stock portfolios are guaranteed by SIPC for hacks and fraud etc bitcoin you are just screwed... no help desk.

GUARANTEED by the SIPC

LOL

sure.gif

I bet you don't even know what SIPC is, Mut