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LebamDawg
Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,788 
in Tug Tavern
Saw this on twitter - if those numbers are accurate it would seem logical to take a deep dive into every government estimate
Comments
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The government sucks at everything it touches.
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Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
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Swaye says this is impossible.NorthwestFresh said: -
Nice job editing my post.HHusky said:
Swaye says this is impossible.NorthwestFresh said: -
I just wish private industry would have built the 737 Max.NorthwestFresh said:
Nice job editing my post.HHusky said:
Swaye says this is impossible.NorthwestFresh said: -
I wish the government would have forced your mom to abort you. But they even fucked that up.HHusky said:
I just wish private industry would have built the 737 Max.NorthwestFresh said:
Nice job editing my post.HHusky said:
Swaye says this is impossible.NorthwestFresh said: -
Typical disintegrationist response.HHusky said:
I just wish private industry would have built the 737 Max.NorthwestFresh said:
Nice job editing my post.HHusky said:
Swaye says this is impossible.NorthwestFresh said:
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737 max is fine pilots weren't trained properly.
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Damn government trainers!Goduckies said:737 max is fine pilots weren't trained properly.
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Was Obama ever right? Useless people have Useless information and knowledge.LebamDawg said:Saw this on twitter - if those numbers are accurate it would seem logical to take a deep dive into every government estimate
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I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
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The US Navy is having a hard time. Can't build new carriers that work and the new destroyers are also having a big struggle. Navigation skills are lacking. The basic blocking and tackling skills aren't being taught.
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This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break. -
Akin to other projects in life -- instead of "Good, Fast, Cheap -- pick two", it's "Bad, Slow, Expensive -- pick two". Although it can also be the trifecta of horrible and you get them all.Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.
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Uh, isn't he saying the opposite?NorthwestFresh said: -
Does anyone know how much govt. subsidies SpaceX has received?
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Here's how I look at the military. The military is rightly imbued with the monopoly of force against foreign actors. As a monopoly and a government entity, it will be bloated, inefficient and wasteful. Weº should constantly endeavor to limit that as much as possible. At the same tim, replacing the military with a non-governmental solution is essentially impossible. Therein lies the tension.creepycoug said:
This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
Until the Korean War, the US military vacillated betwixt too small, just right, and too big. It's always fascinated me that 5 years after assembling the greatest military force the world had ever seen, weº struggled to scrape together a competent and equipped ground force to send to Korea. Since then, @TheChart has been pretty steady upwards. -
That's the external manifestation of the paradox of prosperity. When weº barely have a pot to piss in, we don't care and can't care about some internecine conflict 10,000 miles away. More wealth, more capability, we have more capacity and chinclination to fix problems of increasingly smaller proportion. It takes structural limitations and discerning leadership to avoid that.creepycoug said:
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break. -
There's this concept of negative externality, a negative consequence born out by society at large rather than simply the economic actors themselves.creepycoug said:
This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
If there is a large enough negative externality this is precisely where you DO have a role for government to play. To either mitigate that negative externality to society at large or to impose the costs back on the original economic actors.
In the case of the military private security would present a rather large negative externality of whoever is paying for the security would have an out-size amount of power over society among many other obvious negatives.
Hence, we have a rather large net positive outcome despite all of the inefficiency, waste, and corruption of a government run military. This is literally, "This is a terrible system but we don't have any better option." -
Thank you for the fancy words. Cosigned.UW_Doog_Bot said:
There's this concept of negative externality, a negative consequence born out by society at large rather than simply the economic actors themselves.creepycoug said:
This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
If there is a large enough negative externality this is precisely where you DO have a role for government to play. To either mitigate that negative externality to society at large or to impose the costs back on the original economic actors.
In the case of the military private security would present a rather large negative externality of whoever is paying for the security would have an out-size amount of power over society among many other obvious negatives.
Hence, we have a rather large net positive outcome despite all of the inefficiency, waste, and corruption of a government run military. This is literally, "This is a terrible system but we don't have any better option." -
A couple of other points that didn't fit into my other post.creepycoug said:
This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
Despite the many bad actors, by and large, those in the military serve for altruistic purposes which is why we end up with a bad ass military, even though, it is stupid expensive. I've yet to meet a service member who would disagree that the military industrial complex is a corrupt and wasteful institution.
We should be VERY watchful of when we do make exceptions and get government involved. As you said, gtfo of lots of bullshit wars, let people find out what it's like to have to fend for themselves. I love being lectured about American colonialism and hegemony while the world collectively hides behind our skirts from the CCP, Russia, or the myriad of other bad actor states.
And finally to your point, there is a conservative blind spot for military spending, but that's also because collective defense IS one of the only actual spelled out powers of the Fed and roles that only a handful of wing nuts would completely disagree with. It's an argument of scale and scope rather than the basic principle. I think many conservatives would be willing to cut defense spending in good faith but for the left it's never a matter of cut defense and give the money back to taxpayers, it's defund and redistribute to other government agencies. -
All the best bumperstickers are intellectually bankrupt.UW_Doog_Bot said:
A couple of other points that didn't fit into my other post.creepycoug said:
This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
Despite the many bad actors, by and large, those in the military serve for altruistic purposes which is why we end up with a bad ass military, even though, it is stupid expensive. I've yet to meet a service member who would disagree that the military industrial complex is a corrupt and wasteful institution.
We should be VERY watchful of when we do make exception and get government involved. As you said, gtfo of lots of bullshit wars, let people find out what it's like to have to fend for themselves. I love being lectured about American colonialism and hegemony while the world collectively hides behind our skirts from the CCP, Russia, or the myriad of other bad actor states.
And finally to your point, there is a conservative blind spot for military spending, but that's also because collective defense IS one of the only actual spelled out powers of the Fed and roles that only a handful of wing nut would completely disagree with. It's an argument of scale and scope rather than the basic principle. I think many conservatives would be willing to cut defense spending in good faith but for the left it's never a matter of cut defense and give the money back to taxpayers, it's defund and redistribute to other government agencies.
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This thread is the Tug done right.
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FUCK YOU BABY KILLER!!!!¡¡1111111Swaye said:This thread is the Tug done right.
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GrundleStiltzkin said:
Here's how I look at the military. The military is rightly imbued with the monopoly of force against foreign actors. As a monopoly and a government entity, it will be bloated, inefficient and wasteful. Weº should constantly endeavor to limit that as much as possible. At the same tim, replacing the military with a non-governmental solution is essentially impossible. Therein lies the tension.creepycoug said:
This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
Until the Korean War, the US military vacillated betwixt too small, just right, and too big. It's always fascinated me that 5 years after assembling the greatest military force the world had ever seen, weº struggled to scrape together a competent and equipped ground force to send to Korea. Since then, @TheChart has been pretty steady upwards.
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So there's more to the Tug than being an alt right shit hole?Swaye said:This thread is the Tug done right.
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If history has taught us anything, it's that nothing is impossible where capitalist principles are involved.*GrundleStiltzkin said:
Here's how I look at the military. The military is rightly imbued with the monopoly of force against foreign actors. As a monopoly and a government entity, it will be bloated, inefficient and wasteful. Weº should constantly endeavor to limit that as much as possible. At the same tim, replacing the military with a non-governmental solution is essentially impossible. Therein lies the tension.creepycoug said:
This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
Until the Korean War, the US military vacillated betwixt too small, just right, and too big. It's always fascinated me that 5 years after assembling the greatest military force the world had ever seen, weº struggled to scrape together a competent and equipped ground force to send to Korea. Since then, @TheChart has been pretty steady upwards.
*maybe -
During tims of plenty, I'd like to see us use that tax money/capital to reinvest in American infrastructure/education/other domestic issues.GrundleStiltzkin said:
That's the external manifestation of the paradox of prosperity. When weº barely have a pot to piss in, we don't care and can't care about some internecine conflict 10,000 miles away. More wealth, more capability, we have more capacity and chinclination to fix problems of increasingly smaller proportion. It takes structural limitations and discerning leadership to avoid that.creepycoug said:
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
Takes discipline. -
Yeah, guessed someone would put that out there. You're the history guym, so I'll defer. However, as I understand it, the nuke guys ascended between 1946 and 1950, whilst conventional ground forces were neglected. What ground divisions we had were largely tied down in European occupation duty.YellowSnow said:GrundleStiltzkin said:
Here's how I look at the military. The military is rightly imbued with the monopoly of force against foreign actors. As a monopoly and a government entity, it will be bloated, inefficient and wasteful. Weº should constantly endeavor to limit that as much as possible. At the same tim, replacing the military with a non-governmental solution is essentially impossible. Therein lies the tension.creepycoug said:
This. And, it would be more elite because the social program wing of the military wouldn't exist, freeing up capital for even more bad-ass automated weaponry, which you know full fucking well that Elon can make. I've never understood the Yuge intellectual exception in their collective views on government that conservatives make for the military. It's downright emotional. I mean, how can any self-respecting right winger and lover of liberty possibly uphold anything related to the draft?Swaye said:
I doubt Elon could make the military more effective at its core job, which is projecting power, influencing geopolitics, and killing Americas enemies, but I guarantee you he could do it more efficiently (cheaper). Even when the government is elite in performance, it is horribly inefficient. We, as taxpayers, should expect both. Jobs done to high level at the least expense. You never get that with the government. Usually you get shitty performance at shitty cost. Every once in awhile you get lucky and get one of the two, like our military. ROI is always terrible with the government.HHusky said:
Maybe Elon will build us a military.Swaye said:The government sucks at everything it touches.
Trump is right: get the fuck OUT of every fucking little dog fight we're in, anywhere, and shrink that motherfucker down and, when that's done, don't re-allocate the budget and give me a fucking tax break.
Until the Korean War, the US military vacillated betwixt too small, just right, and too big. It's always fascinated me that 5 years after assembling the greatest military force the world had ever seen, weº struggled to scrape together a competent and equipped ground force to send to Korea. Since then, @TheChart has been pretty steady upwards.
