Way to much Pippen love in this thread. When MJ was retired even Phil knew to go to Kukoc, not Pippen, with the game on the line. The second best player in the league doesn't get passed over for the last shot in a playoff game. Unless you'd like to criticize Phil Jackson's coaching.
Kemp was clearly the second best player on the court in the 96 Finals and that was going against Rodman.
Finally some sanity.
If Pippen doesn't play alongside MJ the majority of his career he's just a dude with a lot of All NBA defensive team accolades and a handful of All Star appearances. The All NBAs and Olympic team selection never happens without Jordan.
Pippen was good - great on the defensive end - but he was not close to as good as this thread makes him out to be.
Voted down for relying on the "last shot" metric to define Pippen's greatness.
Scottie was a great all-around player that did just about everything possible to help you win games. What he wasn't was a 30+ point per game kind of guy that you necessarily designed plays for in the last minute of games. In contrast, Kukoc was a high end offensive player who had a mismatch with the Knicks because of his speed versus their bulk.
Some can skewer Scottie for being a bad teammate in that situation and it would be deserved. However, I also would point out that if you're the #1 on the team, led that team to 55 wins, and was the #2 on 3 straight title teams prior to that, I would certainly have an expectation and desire to want the ball in my hands in that situation. So I don't blame him for being pissed at all.
If you put that 8-man roster together, the reality is that you really wouldn't have that many close games where you'd have to figure out where to go with the last shot. And the beauty of a roster as deep as that one is that you could go after whichever matchup you felt gave you the best advantage. If that roster buys into the goal of winning a championship and leaves a lot of their egos at the door, then you have a multiple title team with that group.
While there are a lot of people going all Yogi Roth --> Sark on this thread about Kemp, it's important to remember that Kemp's own career basically fell apart after he left Seattle as his weight fluctuated and his love for the nose candy grew. During the '96 Finals, Kemp did develop into the best PF on the planet. However, his ability to maintain that level of play was more fleeting than sustained.
Additionally, putting that team together also means that Wally Walker doesn't get this bright idea that Jim McIlvaine was the solution to all problems.
If this thread proves anything, it's how utterly incompetent Wally Walker was.
APAG and DNC are struggling in this thread. Great sample size of one game where Phil chose Kukoc to take the last shot. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli suck because Horry sometimes took the last shot.
You guys are going full retard in this thread. Maybe you guys don't really know basketball that well? Jut because the Calabro calls of Kemp alley oop dunks were awesome doesn't make him better. Oh, but he played with Jordan! Was McHale not good because he played with Bird? How about Kobe without Shaq?
Good post Tequilla, but Kemp was never the best PF in the world. Malone was always better. Not even close. Let's see who the Sooonics on the board are who say Kemp was better in 95-96 because the Sonics beat the Jazz.
Good post Tequilla, but Kemp was never the best PF in the world. Malone was always better. Not even close. Let's see who the Sooonics on the board are who say Kemp was better in 95-96 because the Sonics beat the Jazz.
Kemp out played Malone game 7 but if you remember Kemp struggled first four games badly that series.
Malone was boring why he never gets his just due credit.
Here is what the Sonics were losing vs what they were gaining. I'll post their 1993-94 stats then 1994-95. I know stats isn't the be all end all but hopefully this better illustrates it for you guys.
Scottie Pippen:
93-94: 22.0 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 steals and 0.8 blocks. Shot 49.1%/32.0% on 0.8 three's a game, 66.0% FT's. His PER that year was 23.2. He was 3rd in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive team and all-star game MVP.
94-95: 21.4 PPG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 Steals, 1.1 blocks. Shot 48.0%/34.5%(made 1.9 a game), 71.6% FT's. His PER was 22.6. Finished 7th in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive.
Shawn Kemp:
93-94: 18.1 PPG, 10.8 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.8 steals, 2.1 Blocks. Shot 53.8% from the field and 74.1% FT's. His PER was 22.9. He was 7th in MVP. He was 2nd team all NBA.
94-95: 18.7 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 1.8 APG, 1.2 steals, 1.5 blocks. Shot 54.7% from the field and 74.9% from FT's. His PER was 21.7. He was 2nd team all NBA.
Horace Grant:
93-94: 15.1 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 3.4 APG, 1.1 Steals and 1.2 blocks. Shot 52.5% from the field and 52.8% FT's. His PER was 19.8. He was 2nd team all defensive and an all-star that year.
94-95: 12.8 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.0 steals, 1.2 blocks. Shot 56.7% from the field and 69.7% on FT's. His PER was 16.9. He was 2nd team all defensive.
Also Grant's numbers went down as he played by Shaq so he was no longer the primary big man while in Seattle he would have been. This is a no brainer if they made this trade and signed Grant.
I do notice the MJ fan boys like to dismiss Pippen though so not surprised APAG is tearing apart Pippen.
That Jordan guy must suck since the title was on the line and Phil had MJ give the ball up real quick. Good thing Pippen broke down the defense for an open three............
1) What a great play design by the Zen Master. He knew exactly what Phoenix's responses were going to be and pulled the strings perfectly. Barkley having to guard Pippen was comical.
2) Scottie runs back to the huddle to hug Paxson for making the shot - total team player.
I think the point most are missing from that article is the Sonics wanted to do the trade but backed out due to fan pressure.
Good organizations don't give a flying fuck what the fans response will be. We've seen the Mariners do this as well. They'll sign a Cano to make a splash when signing four solid guys for 6 million a year is the better move.
Conversely, the Seahawks don't give a fuck what the Hooks think. Carroll after year one released popular players like Hasselbeck, Tatupu and Babineaux. I remember Big Lo freaking out how Carroll is "destroying" the team. They didn't care that their fans hated their 2011 and 2012 drafts as they knew if they won those same idiots would love them. That is what happened.
The same fans like myself in middle school would have HATED that trade would have been praising that deal when Seattle was winning the title in Tacoma later that season.
As always you don't make decisions due to fan reaction.
Also here is a Drexler to Seattle link to make you throw up a little bit.
The reason for the delay, sources said, was that Seattle had to wait for team president-GM Wally Walker to return from vacation, and that the issue of Drexler's $8.
Great work ethic as always there Wally. A REAL GM cuts his vacation short or better yet isn't on vacation during the season when Drexler is on the fucking table!
Here is what the Sonics were losing vs what they were gaining. I'll post their 1993-94 stats then 1994-95. I know stats isn't the be all end all but hopefully this better illustrates it for you guys.
Scottie Pippen:
93-94: 22.0 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 steals and 0.8 blocks. Shot 49.1%/32.0% on 0.8 three's a game, 66.0% FT's. His PER that year was 23.2. He was 3rd in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive team and all-star game MVP.
94-95: 21.4 PPG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 Steals, 1.1 blocks. Shot 48.0%/34.5%(made 1.9 a game), 71.6% FT's. His PER was 22.6. Finished 7th in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive.
Shawn Kemp:
93-94: 18.1 PPG, 10.8 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.8 steals, 2.1 Blocks. Shot 53.8% from the field and 74.1% FT's. His PER was 22.9. He was 7th in MVP. He was 2nd team all NBA.
94-95: 18.7 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 1.8 APG, 1.2 steals, 1.5 blocks. Shot 54.7% from the field and 74.9% from FT's. His PER was 21.7. He was 2nd team all NBA.
Horace Grant:
93-94: 15.1 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 3.4 APG, 1.1 Steals and 1.2 blocks. Shot 52.5% from the field and 52.8% FT's. His PER was 19.8. He was 2nd team all defensive and an all-star that year.
94-95: 12.8 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.0 steals, 1.2 blocks. Shot 56.7% from the field and 69.7% on FT's. His PER was 16.9. He was 2nd team all defensive.
Also Grant's numbers went down as he played by Shaq so he was no longer the primary big man while in Seattle he would have been. This is a no brainer if they made this trade and signed Grant.
I do notice the MJ fan boys like to dismiss Pippen though so not surprised APAG is tearing apart Pippen.
That Jordan guy must suck since the title was on the line and Phil had MJ give the ball up real quick. Good thing Pippen broke down the defense for an open three............
First, that video is great basketball. You can't draw it up or execute any better. Pippen flashes to the top of the key, drives, drops it to Grant who could have gotten a lay up or fouled, but he makes the extra pass to Paxson for a wide open 3.
Horace Grant was a really good player who some say got recognition because of Jordan/Pippen, but really he sacrificed and probably would have looked better on another team. Another unselfish player that would have fit in great in Seattle.
It would have been really bad for the Bulls to make the deal. With Kemp at the 4, they probably never sign Rodman. Kemp and Jordan would have been the two guys. Any team with Michael Jordan and Shawn Kemp will be really good, but I doubt they 3 peat if they lost Pippen.
It would have been really bad for the Bulls to make the deal. With Kemp at the 4, they probably never sign Rodman. Kemp and Jordan would have been the two guys. Any team with Michael Jordan and Shawn Kemp will be really good, but I doubt they 3 peat if they lost Pippen.
Kukoc would have had a starring role on that team.
Agree that no chance that they would have grabbed Rodman.
They aren't 3 peating.
They probably aren't getting past the Pacers in '98.
It wouldn't have shocked me if they won a title with Jordan still ... but that's not as good of a team.
Remember guys Wally had no stones. In December of 1994 he turned down a Drexler to Seattle for Gill and a first rounder.
Seattle wins a title in 94-95 with that trade.
Discussing what could have been with those Sonics is as depressing as talking about the Lambo years. Good thing they were happening at once.
Fuck.
I don't remember that at all, and I listened to quite a bit of KJR then. Of course, KJR Was both the flagship station of the SuperSonics and they also shared an owner, so the whitewashing level was high.
Remember guys Wally had no stones. In December of 1994 he turned down a Drexler to Seattle for Gill and a first rounder.
Seattle wins a title in 94-95 with that trade.
Discussing what could have been with those Sonics is as depressing as talking about the Lambo years. Good thing they were happening at once.
Fuck.
I don't remember that at all, and I listened to quite a bit of KJR then. Of course, KJR Was both the flagship station of the SuperSonics and they also shared an owner, so the whitewashing level was high.
Read up I posted some Drexler to Seattle links. I think had Whitsitt still been in Seattle some major trades would have happened as he proved after the 1993 year he isn't afraid to shake up a roster that is close to a title.
Also him being in Portland really made the Drexler trade tough.
Walker was just a color commentator with no GM experience then they made him GM. Be like the Mariners handing the keys to Ron Fairly or the Seahawks giving the keys to Steve Rable. Very irresponsible move by Ackerly.
Way to much Pippen love in this thread. When MJ was retired even Phil knew to go to Kukoc, not Pippen, with the game on the line. The second best player in the league doesn't get passed over for the last shot in a playoff game. Unless you'd like to criticize Phil Jackson's coaching.
Kemp was clearly the second best player on the court in the 96 Finals and that was going against Rodman.
Finally some sanity.
If Pippen doesn't play alongside MJ the majority of his career he's just a dude with a lot of All NBA defensive team accolades and a handful of All Star appearances. The All NBAs and Olympic team selection never happens without Jordan.
Pippen was good - great on the defensive end - but he was not close to as good as this thread makes him out to be.
Yeah, no shit. He was always a top 3-4 SF from 1990 until 1998, but he's not some top 10 or even 20 all-time player by any stretch. Again, simply inserting him in the '94-'95 line-up and not getting a solid bruiser four to replace Kemp, then expecting a title is FS.
Did Pippen have an overall better career? Yeah, probably. That doesn't mean they automatically win a ring.
Way to much Pippen love in this thread. When MJ was retired even Phil knew to go to Kukoc, not Pippen, with the game on the line. The second best player in the league doesn't get passed over for the last shot in a playoff game. Unless you'd like to criticize Phil Jackson's coaching.
Kemp was clearly the second best player on the court in the 96 Finals and that was going against Rodman.
Finally some sanity.
If Pippen doesn't play alongside MJ the majority of his career he's just a dude with a lot of All NBA defensive team accolades and a handful of All Star appearances. The All NBAs and Olympic team selection never happens without Jordan.
Pippen was good - great on the defensive end - but he was not close to as good as this thread makes him out to be.
Yeah, no shit. He was always a top 3-4 SF from 1990 until 1998, but he's not some top 10 or even 20 all-time player by any stretch. Again, simply inserting him in the '94-'95 line-up and not getting a solid bruiser four to replace Kemp, then expecting a title is FS.
Did Pippen have an overall better career? Yeah, probably. That doesn't mean they automatically win a ring.
The fuck? You are way under selling Pippen there. From 1994-1996 there was no better SF than him. In 1997 I'd say Grant Hill was better and in 1993/1992 you could argue Chris Mullen.
He was either the best SF or 2nd best. Also in the article it stated had the trade gone down they would have added Horace Grant who averaged 15 PPG, 11 RPG and 3.5 assists per game while being 2nd team all defense.
I'll admit missing out on these type of dunks would have made me sad. Crazy at age 24 Kemp really only had 3 really good years left in him after that and a fourth year he was good.
Comments
If Pippen doesn't play alongside MJ the majority of his career he's just a dude with a lot of All NBA defensive team accolades and a handful of All Star appearances. The All NBAs and Olympic team selection never happens without Jordan.
Pippen was good - great on the defensive end - but he was not close to as good as this thread makes him out to be.
Pippen was also struggling down the stretch that game. Plus Phil sometimes calls up a play where a super star doesn't shoot(Paxson ring a bell?).
At that time Kemp was Blake Griffin 2012. Just a highlight reel player but not a guy who can do well in postseason.
Plus you are taking out Kemp, Pierce and Gill and adding Pippen, Grant and Richmond? Sign me up and fuck you Wally!
Voted down for relying on the "last shot" metric to define Pippen's greatness.
Scottie was a great all-around player that did just about everything possible to help you win games. What he wasn't was a 30+ point per game kind of guy that you necessarily designed plays for in the last minute of games. In contrast, Kukoc was a high end offensive player who had a mismatch with the Knicks because of his speed versus their bulk.
Some can skewer Scottie for being a bad teammate in that situation and it would be deserved. However, I also would point out that if you're the #1 on the team, led that team to 55 wins, and was the #2 on 3 straight title teams prior to that, I would certainly have an expectation and desire to want the ball in my hands in that situation. So I don't blame him for being pissed at all.
If you put that 8-man roster together, the reality is that you really wouldn't have that many close games where you'd have to figure out where to go with the last shot. And the beauty of a roster as deep as that one is that you could go after whichever matchup you felt gave you the best advantage. If that roster buys into the goal of winning a championship and leaves a lot of their egos at the door, then you have a multiple title team with that group.
While there are a lot of people going all Yogi Roth --> Sark on this thread about Kemp, it's important to remember that Kemp's own career basically fell apart after he left Seattle as his weight fluctuated and his love for the nose candy grew. During the '96 Finals, Kemp did develop into the best PF on the planet. However, his ability to maintain that level of play was more fleeting than sustained.
Additionally, putting that team together also means that Wally Walker doesn't get this bright idea that Jim McIlvaine was the solution to all problems.
If this thread proves anything, it's how utterly incompetent Wally Walker was.
You guys are going full retard in this thread. Maybe you guys don't really know basketball that well? Jut because the Calabro calls of Kemp alley oop dunks were awesome doesn't make him better. Oh, but he played with Jordan! Was McHale not good because he played with Bird? How about Kobe without Shaq?
Malone was boring why he never gets his just due credit.
Scottie Pippen:
93-94: 22.0 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 steals and 0.8 blocks. Shot 49.1%/32.0% on 0.8 three's a game, 66.0% FT's. His PER that year was 23.2. He was 3rd in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive team and all-star game MVP.
94-95: 21.4 PPG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 Steals, 1.1 blocks. Shot 48.0%/34.5%(made 1.9 a game), 71.6% FT's. His PER was 22.6. Finished 7th in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive.
Shawn Kemp:
93-94: 18.1 PPG, 10.8 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.8 steals, 2.1 Blocks. Shot 53.8% from the field and 74.1% FT's. His PER was 22.9. He was 7th in MVP. He was 2nd team all NBA.
94-95: 18.7 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 1.8 APG, 1.2 steals, 1.5 blocks. Shot 54.7% from the field and 74.9% from FT's. His PER was 21.7. He was 2nd team all NBA.
Horace Grant:
93-94: 15.1 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 3.4 APG, 1.1 Steals and 1.2 blocks. Shot 52.5% from the field and 52.8% FT's. His PER was 19.8. He was 2nd team all defensive and an all-star that year.
94-95: 12.8 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.0 steals, 1.2 blocks. Shot 56.7% from the field and 69.7% on FT's. His PER was 16.9. He was 2nd team all defensive.
Also Grant's numbers went down as he played by Shaq so he was no longer the primary big man while in Seattle he would have been. This is a no brainer if they made this trade and signed Grant.
I do notice the MJ fan boys like to dismiss Pippen though so not surprised APAG is tearing apart Pippen.
That Jordan guy must suck since the title was on the line and Phil had MJ give the ball up real quick. Good thing Pippen broke down the defense for an open three............
1) What a great play design by the Zen Master. He knew exactly what Phoenix's responses were going to be and pulled the strings perfectly. Barkley having to guard Pippen was comical.
2) Scottie runs back to the huddle to hug Paxson for making the shot - total team player.
Good organizations don't give a flying fuck what the fans response will be. We've seen the Mariners do this as well. They'll sign a Cano to make a splash when signing four solid guys for 6 million a year is the better move.
Conversely, the Seahawks don't give a fuck what the Hooks think. Carroll after year one released popular players like Hasselbeck, Tatupu and Babineaux. I remember Big Lo freaking out how Carroll is "destroying" the team. They didn't care that their fans hated their 2011 and 2012 drafts as they knew if they won those same idiots would love them. That is what happened.
The same fans like myself in middle school would have HATED that trade would have been praising that deal when Seattle was winning the title in Tacoma later that season.
As always you don't make decisions due to fan reaction.
Also here is a Drexler to Seattle link to make you throw up a little bit.
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/drexler-deal-sonics-gill-imminent-article-1.683625
The reason for the delay, sources said, was that Seattle had to wait for team president-GM Wally Walker to return from vacation, and that the issue of Drexler's $8.
Great work ethic as always there Wally. A REAL GM cuts his vacation short or better yet isn't on vacation during the season when Drexler is on the fucking table!
Horace Grant was a really good player who some say got recognition because of Jordan/Pippen, but really he sacrificed and probably would have looked better on another team. Another unselfish player that would have fit in great in Seattle.
Look at how Inside the NBA used to be is hilarious. I love Phil's reaction to the game winner like he didn't even had a doubt.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/041101
Good article by Simmons about Pippen.
Agree that no chance that they would have grabbed Rodman.
They aren't 3 peating.
They probably aren't getting past the Pacers in '98.
It wouldn't have shocked me if they won a title with Jordan still ... but that's not as good of a team.
Also him being in Portland really made the Drexler trade tough.
Walker was just a color commentator with no GM experience then they made him GM. Be like the Mariners handing the keys to Ron Fairly or the Seahawks giving the keys to Steve Rable. Very irresponsible move by Ackerly.
Did Pippen have an overall better career? Yeah, probably. That doesn't mean they automatically win a ring.
He was either the best SF or 2nd best. Also in the article it stated had the trade gone down they would have added Horace Grant who averaged 15 PPG, 11 RPG and 3.5 assists per game while being 2nd team all defense.
Cant believe they could have got Drexler. That would have been the greatest finals of all time in 1996.
Fucking Wally Walker. This guy was such a fucking disaster. He should be nowhere near the Sonics when they return. Cant stand the guy.