Kemp for Pippen Trade in 1994
I don't remember this alleged deal or at least I vaguely do. Would have been Kemp and Ricky Pierce for Pippen.
MJ told George Karl that the Sonics would win the championship if they made the trade, according to the article. What do you guys think?
Comments
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Kemp (before McIlvane and the lockout weight gain) > Pippen
I would have hated that deal -
I was just thinking about that trade, and how the NBA Draft was a big deal then (no God damn h.s. punks or Eurotrash). You actually knew most of the draftees.
I wasn't a big fan of it at the time. In the playoffs that yr., Pippen refused to go in the last part of a playoff game Because the coach called a play for Kukoc instead. He wasn't exactly a team player. Pippin alone would not have just magically bought Championships to the Sonics. -
Imagine fast breaks with Jordan and Kemp as the racehorses going airborne. Wow, what a show that would have been.
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I think they lose to the Bulls.HeretoBeatmyChest said:
MJ told George Karl that the Sonics would win the championship if they made the trade, according to the article. What do you guys think?
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I remember the deal. My brother and I were sad about it, but looking at it now, it would have been a good move for the Sonics. Pippen was better than Kemp. It would have been a great move for the Sonics. The perimeter defense with Pippen and Payton would have been incredible.
Only thing questionable about the deal would have been the fit. We already had Detlef to play the 3. Would Pippen be the 2 and we trade Gill for another big? Pippen at the 3 and Det at 4? Or would we sign another big to pair with Perkins/Ervin Johnson? There would have needed to be another move or 2, but Pippen was better than Kemp ever was. Pippen was a top 10 player, maybe even top 5. Kemp was good. Pippen was borderline great. -
That's some Sooonic shit. Everyone loves Kemp, but it's not even close to who was the better player. Pippen was always better.dnc said:Kemp (before McIlvane and the lockout weight gain) > Pippen
I would have hated that deal
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Wow, totally disagree on Pippen. I think he's the most overrated player of his generation.RoadDawg55 said:I remember the deal. My brother and I were sad about it, but looking at it now, it would have been a good move for the Sonics. Pippen was better than Kemp. It would have been a great move for the Sonics. The perimeter defense with Pippen and Payton would have been incredible.
Only thing questionable about the deal would have been the fit. We already had Detlef to play the 3. Would Pippen be the 2 and we trade Gill for another big? Pippen at the 3 and Det at 4? Or would we sign another big to pair with Perkins/Ervin Johnson? There would have needed to be another move or 2, but Pippen was better than Kemp ever was. Pippen was a top 10 player, maybe even top 5. Kemp was good. Pippen was borderline great.
I always hated Pippen.
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Road Dawg at the time of the trade and it was announced as a "done deal" watch the 1994 draft they were talking like it was done. Kemp, Pierce and the 10th pick in the draft for Pippen.RoadDawg55 said:I remember the deal. My brother and I were sad about it, but looking at it now, it would have been a good move for the Sonics. Pippen was better than Kemp. It would have been a great move for the Sonics. The perimeter defense with Pippen and Payton would have been incredible.
Only thing questionable about the deal would have been the fit. We already had Detlef to play the 3. Would Pippen be the 2 and we trade Gill for another big? Pippen at the 3 and Det at 4? Or would we sign another big to pair with Perkins/Ervin Johnson? There would have needed to be another move or 2, but Pippen was better than Kemp ever was. Pippen was a top 10 player, maybe even top 5. Kemp was good. Pippen was borderline great.
I didn't like it due to the bolded part. In the west you had a stable of bigs and the Sonics would have left themselves no bigs.
I love Kemp but I would take Pippen who in 1994 was a top 3 player in the game maybe even 2nd behind only Olajuwon at that time. Now Kemp was a better fit.
My greatest what if of all-time is what if the Sonics had simply kept Pippen the 5th pick in the draft instead of immediately trading him for Oldin Polynice? Watching Kemp, Payton and Pippen do the fast break would be fun.
Here is George Karl's take on the Pippen trade who was pissed it DIDN'T happen. He said that is when he knew his relationship with Wally Walker was going to be doomed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1uC-jU1550
This video he describes the difference between Kemp and Payton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHoAOWb1p4E
This is where Karl talks about the Denver collapse and the trade. -
Hi there. Pippen was a Sonic once:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/63754-top-five-worst-nba-trades-of-all-time -
Flagged for linking Bleacher Report. You of all people should know this.TierbsHsotBoobs said:Hi there. Pippen was a Sonic once:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/63754-top-five-worst-nba-trades-of-all-time -
Well deserved. I thought about linking another source but then I got lazy.He_Needs_More_Time said:
Flagged for linking Bleacher Report. You of all people should know this.TierbsHsotBoobs said:Hi there. Pippen was a Sonic once:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/63754-top-five-worst-nba-trades-of-all-time -
You guys gotta be kidding me. Scottie Pippen was the best 3 in the league. He was first team all NBA in the two years that would have followed the trade, and 2nd team in the third season. Kemp was 2nd team in the years Pippen was first. Pippen was probably the best defensive player in the league at the 2/3. He got around 8 rebounds every season, 5-6 assists, always was near the top in steals. He was arguably the best all around player in the league after Jordan retired. He was the ultimate jack of all trades and could contribute in so many ways. Pippen, Payton, and McMillan would have locked every team down on the perimeter.
Pippen Win shares from 94-95 to 97-98= 43.8
94-95 11.8
95-96 12.3
96-97 13.1
97-98 6.6 (Only played half the season because of back injury. Was never the same again, but still a very useful player
Kemp from 94-95 to 97-98= 38.6
94-95 10.6
95-96 11.2
96-97 10.0
97-98 6.8 (played full season)
Both were good, Pippen was better. When you factor in discipline too, there is another check to Pippen. Champion experience? Pippen again. Frankly, other than fit and possibly fan outrage, this deal should have been a no brainer. Pippen won 55 games the year Jordan retired with a garbage team other than Horace Grant. For a few years, he was a great player. -
Typical PNW build a fucking dynasty for another team. Portland passes on Jordan, Seattle gives them Pippen.TierbsHsotBoobs said:
Well deserved. I thought about linking another source but then I got lazy.He_Needs_More_Time said:
Flagged for linking Bleacher Report. You of all people should know this.TierbsHsotBoobs said:Hi there. Pippen was a Sonic once:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/63754-top-five-worst-nba-trades-of-all-time
Yet people wonder why we are so jaded as fans? -
The trade would have made the Sonics better on paper but vulnerable in the West against Olajuwon, Barkley and Malone.
The thing about Kemp is he was huge in the 96 playoffs and on his way to being a top 5 player and superstar. Then Wally Walker completely fucked it up. I seriously hate Wally Walker. He should be completely ostracized from any new team in Seattle. -
It all depends on what the design was.
In the linked article, there was also mention of a Kendall Gill and Mitch Richmond trade and an attempt to sign Horace Grant at PF.
First, while Kemp was a great player and one of the better PF of his era, Scottie was arguably the best at his position in the game and one of the greats of all-time (in Bill Simmons' Book of Basketball Pippen was 24th all time and Kemp 88th).
Second, after the '93-'94 season, it was very clear that Kendall Gill wasn't a great fit on this roster as his game was about having the ball and slashing to the basket. He needed the ball in his hands and that wasn't going to work. Moving him for Mitch Richmond who was a dynamic scorer who was capable of being a catch and shoot guy made a ton of sense. Particularly with Payton and Pippen on the court, you could then hide Richmond on defense fairly easily. Instead, you held onto Gill, watched his stock drop further, and you ended up getting Hersey Hawkins. I love the Hawk but he wasn't Mitch Richmond.
Third, if you were able to then go out and sign Horace Grant to a deal, you'd solve the PF issue as well as a long-term lingering issue through those Sonics teams of questionable depth. You'd be able to move Det back to the bench and able to play the 3-4 positions and have a very strong 2nd unit - particularly if you also included Ervin Johnson in your starting lineup as that would then push Perkins to the bench. Even if you switched that, when you add Mac10 into the equation, you then had a very deep 8 man rotation with everyone of your bench guys capable of being a starter on a championship caliber club. And that doesn't even include guys like Vincent Askew who were capable of providing solid minutes.
I can understand being cautious about making the deal. I can understand thinking about the implications of the deal and how you made your lineup better to cover a weakness that would be created. But in the long run, that's a club that has significantly better depth and would have had the flexibility to go small against a team like Phoenix (GP, Mitch, Pippen, Det, and Perkins) or big against a team like Houston (GP, Pip, Det, Grant, Perkins/Johnson). It's a team that probably wins a title and quite possibly 2 or 3. You probably take away Houston's 2nd title, you'd nip the Bulls 2nd 3 peat in the bud, and be better positioned to neutralize a Utah team that couldn't keep up with this depth.
In the end, Wally Walker was always a pussy looking for an easy solution. He definitely didn't have any forward thought to how the game could or should be played. He had a massive ego (that was never deserved) and instead of working with his coach to try to build the optimal roster based on a desired way of playing he would dictate to the coach the way he should play. -
A starting 5 of Payton, Richmond, Pippen, Horace Grant, and E. Johnson (He only played 10-15 min) with Detlef, Perkins, and McMillan off the bench would have been scary good.
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Remember guys Wally had no stones. In December of 1994 he turned down a Drexler to Seattle for Gill and a first rounder.
Seattle wins a title in 94-95 with that trade.
Discussing what could have been with those Sonics is as depressing as talking about the Lambo years. Good thing they were happening at once.
Fuck. -
Turned down Drexler? I was too young to remember many of the rumors past Kemp for Pippen. Fuck. I can't believe we went from Drexler or Richmond to Hawkins. I liked Hersey, but he isn't close to those other guys.He_Needs_More_Time said:Remember guys Wally had no stones. In December of 1994 he turned down a Drexler to Seattle for Gill and a first rounder.
Seattle wins a title in 94-95 with that trade.
Discussing what could have been with those Sonics is as depressing as talking about the Lambo years. Good thing they were happening at once.
Fuck. -
The mid 90s should have been the best 3-5 years ever for Seattle sports. You had three championship caliber teams with the exception of the Hawks who had improved from terrible to average.He_Needs_More_Time said:Remember guys Wally had no stones. In December of 1994 he turned down a Drexler to Seattle for Gill and a first rounder.
Seattle wins a title in 94-95 with that trade.
Discussing what could have been with those Sonics is as depressing as talking about the Lambo years. Good thing they were happening at once.
Fuck.
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Way to much Pippen love in this thread. When MJ was retired even Phil knew to go to Kukoc, not Pippen, with the game on the line. The second best player in the league doesn't get passed over for the last shot in a playoff game. Unless you'd like to criticize Phil Jackson's coaching.
Kemp was clearly the second best player on the court in the 96 Finals and that was going against Rodman. -
Finally some sanity.allpurpleallgold said:Way to much Pippen love in this thread. When MJ was retired even Phil knew to go to Kukoc, not Pippen, with the game on the line. The second best player in the league doesn't get passed over for the last shot in a playoff game. Unless you'd like to criticize Phil Jackson's coaching.
Kemp was clearly the second best player on the court in the 96 Finals and that was going against Rodman.
If Pippen doesn't play alongside MJ the majority of his career he's just a dude with a lot of All NBA defensive team accolades and a handful of All Star appearances. The All NBAs and Olympic team selection never happens without Jordan.
Pippen was good - great on the defensive end - but he was not close to as good as this thread makes him out to be. -
Explain how the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan and Pippen taking 3rd in the MVP that year?
Pippen was also struggling down the stretch that game. Plus Phil sometimes calls up a play where a super star doesn't shoot(Paxson ring a bell?).
At that time Kemp was Blake Griffin 2012. Just a highlight reel player but not a guy who can do well in postseason.
Plus you are taking out Kemp, Pierce and Gill and adding Pippen, Grant and Richmond? Sign me up and fuck you Wally! -
APAG,
Voted down for relying on the "last shot" metric to define Pippen's greatness.
Scottie was a great all-around player that did just about everything possible to help you win games. What he wasn't was a 30+ point per game kind of guy that you necessarily designed plays for in the last minute of games. In contrast, Kukoc was a high end offensive player who had a mismatch with the Knicks because of his speed versus their bulk.
Some can skewer Scottie for being a bad teammate in that situation and it would be deserved. However, I also would point out that if you're the #1 on the team, led that team to 55 wins, and was the #2 on 3 straight title teams prior to that, I would certainly have an expectation and desire to want the ball in my hands in that situation. So I don't blame him for being pissed at all.
If you put that 8-man roster together, the reality is that you really wouldn't have that many close games where you'd have to figure out where to go with the last shot. And the beauty of a roster as deep as that one is that you could go after whichever matchup you felt gave you the best advantage. If that roster buys into the goal of winning a championship and leaves a lot of their egos at the door, then you have a multiple title team with that group.
While there are a lot of people going all Yogi Roth --> Sark on this thread about Kemp, it's important to remember that Kemp's own career basically fell apart after he left Seattle as his weight fluctuated and his love for the nose candy grew. During the '96 Finals, Kemp did develop into the best PF on the planet. However, his ability to maintain that level of play was more fleeting than sustained.
Additionally, putting that team together also means that Wally Walker doesn't get this bright idea that Jim McIlvaine was the solution to all problems.
If this thread proves anything, it's how utterly incompetent Wally Walker was. -
APAG and DNC are struggling in this thread. Great sample size of one game where Phil chose Kukoc to take the last shot. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli suck because Horry sometimes took the last shot.
You guys are going full retard in this thread. Maybe you guys don't really know basketball that well? Jut because the Calabro calls of Kemp alley oop dunks were awesome doesn't make him better. Oh, but he played with Jordan! Was McHale not good because he played with Bird? How about Kobe without Shaq? -
Good post Tequilla, but Kemp was never the best PF in the world. Malone was always better. Not even close. Let's see who the Sooonics on the board are who say Kemp was better in 95-96 because the Sonics beat the Jazz.
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Kemp out played Malone game 7 but if you remember Kemp struggled first four games badly that series.RoadDawg55 said:Good post Tequilla, but Kemp was never the best PF in the world. Malone was always better. Not even close. Let's see who the Sooonics on the board are who say Kemp was better in 95-96 because the Sonics beat the Jazz.
Malone was boring why he never gets his just due credit. -
Here is what the Sonics were losing vs what they were gaining. I'll post their 1993-94 stats then 1994-95. I know stats isn't the be all end all but hopefully this better illustrates it for you guys.
Scottie Pippen:
93-94: 22.0 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 steals and 0.8 blocks. Shot 49.1%/32.0% on 0.8 three's a game, 66.0% FT's. His PER that year was 23.2. He was 3rd in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive team and all-star game MVP.
94-95: 21.4 PPG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 Steals, 1.1 blocks. Shot 48.0%/34.5%(made 1.9 a game), 71.6% FT's. His PER was 22.6. Finished 7th in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive.
Shawn Kemp:
93-94: 18.1 PPG, 10.8 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.8 steals, 2.1 Blocks. Shot 53.8% from the field and 74.1% FT's. His PER was 22.9. He was 7th in MVP. He was 2nd team all NBA.
94-95: 18.7 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 1.8 APG, 1.2 steals, 1.5 blocks. Shot 54.7% from the field and 74.9% from FT's. His PER was 21.7. He was 2nd team all NBA.
Horace Grant:
93-94: 15.1 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 3.4 APG, 1.1 Steals and 1.2 blocks. Shot 52.5% from the field and 52.8% FT's. His PER was 19.8. He was 2nd team all defensive and an all-star that year.
94-95: 12.8 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.0 steals, 1.2 blocks. Shot 56.7% from the field and 69.7% on FT's. His PER was 16.9. He was 2nd team all defensive.
Also Grant's numbers went down as he played by Shaq so he was no longer the primary big man while in Seattle he would have been. This is a no brainer if they made this trade and signed Grant.
I do notice the MJ fan boys like to dismiss Pippen though so not surprised APAG is tearing apart Pippen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAr4I3-Z48
That Jordan guy must suck since the title was on the line and Phil had MJ give the ball up real quick. Good thing Pippen broke down the defense for an open three............ -
Two things really strike me in that video:
1) What a great play design by the Zen Master. He knew exactly what Phoenix's responses were going to be and pulled the strings perfectly. Barkley having to guard Pippen was comical.
2) Scottie runs back to the huddle to hug Paxson for making the shot - total team player. -
I think the point most are missing from that article is the Sonics wanted to do the trade but backed out due to fan pressure.
Good organizations don't give a flying fuck what the fans response will be. We've seen the Mariners do this as well. They'll sign a Cano to make a splash when signing four solid guys for 6 million a year is the better move.
Conversely, the Seahawks don't give a fuck what the Hooks think. Carroll after year one released popular players like Hasselbeck, Tatupu and Babineaux. I remember Big Lo freaking out how Carroll is "destroying" the team. They didn't care that their fans hated their 2011 and 2012 drafts as they knew if they won those same idiots would love them. That is what happened.
The same fans like myself in middle school would have HATED that trade would have been praising that deal when Seattle was winning the title in Tacoma later that season.
As always you don't make decisions due to fan reaction.
Also here is a Drexler to Seattle link to make you throw up a little bit.
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/drexler-deal-sonics-gill-imminent-article-1.683625
The reason for the delay, sources said, was that Seattle had to wait for team president-GM Wally Walker to return from vacation, and that the issue of Drexler's $8.
Great work ethic as always there Wally. A REAL GM cuts his vacation short or better yet isn't on vacation during the season when Drexler is on the fucking table!
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First, that video is great basketball. You can't draw it up or execute any better. Pippen flashes to the top of the key, drives, drops it to Grant who could have gotten a lay up or fouled, but he makes the extra pass to Paxson for a wide open 3.He_Needs_More_Time said:Here is what the Sonics were losing vs what they were gaining. I'll post their 1993-94 stats then 1994-95. I know stats isn't the be all end all but hopefully this better illustrates it for you guys.
Scottie Pippen:
93-94: 22.0 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 steals and 0.8 blocks. Shot 49.1%/32.0% on 0.8 three's a game, 66.0% FT's. His PER that year was 23.2. He was 3rd in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive team and all-star game MVP.
94-95: 21.4 PPG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 Steals, 1.1 blocks. Shot 48.0%/34.5%(made 1.9 a game), 71.6% FT's. His PER was 22.6. Finished 7th in MVP, first team all NBA, first team all defensive.
Shawn Kemp:
93-94: 18.1 PPG, 10.8 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.8 steals, 2.1 Blocks. Shot 53.8% from the field and 74.1% FT's. His PER was 22.9. He was 7th in MVP. He was 2nd team all NBA.
94-95: 18.7 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 1.8 APG, 1.2 steals, 1.5 blocks. Shot 54.7% from the field and 74.9% from FT's. His PER was 21.7. He was 2nd team all NBA.
Horace Grant:
93-94: 15.1 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 3.4 APG, 1.1 Steals and 1.2 blocks. Shot 52.5% from the field and 52.8% FT's. His PER was 19.8. He was 2nd team all defensive and an all-star that year.
94-95: 12.8 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.0 steals, 1.2 blocks. Shot 56.7% from the field and 69.7% on FT's. His PER was 16.9. He was 2nd team all defensive.
Also Grant's numbers went down as he played by Shaq so he was no longer the primary big man while in Seattle he would have been. This is a no brainer if they made this trade and signed Grant.
I do notice the MJ fan boys like to dismiss Pippen though so not surprised APAG is tearing apart Pippen.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAr4I3-Z48
That Jordan guy must suck since the title was on the line and Phil had MJ give the ball up real quick. Good thing Pippen broke down the defense for an open three............
Horace Grant was a really good player who some say got recognition because of Jordan/Pippen, but really he sacrificed and probably would have looked better on another team. Another unselfish player that would have fit in great in Seattle.
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