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Why We Won't Defend a Legitimate National Interest in Europe

AZDuckAZDuck Member Posts: 15,381
edited April 2014 in Tug Tavern
Damone and I disagree on almost everything. But he has a point when he complains that the US is too lily-livered to do anything in the face of the first territorial aggression in Europe since Yugoslavia in the early 90's.

The bitch of it is, we've wasted thousands of lives and billions of dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan - wars that were won on the battlefield but lost due to strategic failure (they were fucking pointless).

This guy interviewed me once:

not citrus
{Iraq has] really become - I think it's fair to say it's become essentially a Shiite government. And it's a Shiite government which is very close to the great Shiite power in the region, Iran. I think it's fair to say it wouldn't exist the way that it does without Iranian support, and it's one of the - it's really one of the great ironies of this war, of the American war, that the guys who really ended up on top with the most influence in that country, it's not the Americans, not now, but it's the Iranians.
I called this in 2003. I said, why invade Iraq - they don't want western democracy - the majority population is Shiites. Give them democracy and they will elect Shiite totalitarians instead of the Sunni totalitarians who have run the place ever since the Turks and Brits left.

But, FYFMFE.

Meanwhile, the Ukrainians are just kind of saying "well, fuck, we can't control our eastern provinces." Nice to see that a classic KGB destablization program has been allowed to succeed. Targeted assasssinations, kidnappings, occupation of government buildings, etc. The only question left now is how much of Ukraine the Russkis think they can absorb.

smells citrusy but is actually a Ukrainian newspaper - beware of Russian malware bots

This wouldn't have happened if Hillary was still in charge

What is happening now happened in 1938, in Czechoslovakia.

image

If the US had real policymakers in charge, we would be working on a plan to supply the Euros with natural gas in time for next winter and shipping 2 divisions to Romania, Poland, and the Baltics.

But hey, a battalion from the 173rd is pretty cool. That's like, 600 dudes.

usnews.com/news/articles/2014/04/22/us-sends-600-airborne-infantry-troops-to-poland-baltics

If nothing else, the "ready" brigade from 82nd ABN should already be in Germany, just to show Vlad that we can get there in a hurry, but...

:::crickets:::

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Comments

  • topdawgnctopdawgnc Member Posts: 7,838
    AZDuck said:

    Damone and I disagree on almost everything. But he has a point when he complains that the US is too lily-livered to do anything in the face of the first territorial aggression in Europe since Yugoslavia in the early 90's.

    The bitch of it is, we've wasted thousands of lives and billions of dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan - wars that were won on the battlefield but lost due to strategic failure (they were fucking pointless).

    This guy interviewed me once:

    not citrus

    {Iraq has] really become - I think it's fair to say it's become essentially a Shiite government. And it's a Shiite government which is very close to the great Shiite power in the region, Iran. I think it's fair to say it wouldn't exist the way that it does without Iranian support, and it's one of the - it's really one of the great ironies of this war, of the American war, that the guys who really ended up on top with the most influence in that country, it's not the Americans, not now, but it's the Iranians.
    I called this in 2003. I said, why invade Iraq - they don't want western democracy - the majority population is Shiites. Give them democracy and they will elect Shiite totalitarians instead of the Sunni totalitarians who have run the place ever since the Turks and Brits left.

    But, FYFMFE.

    Meanwhile, the Ukrainians are just kind of saying "well, fuck, we can't control our eastern provinces." Nice to see that a classic KGB destablization program has been allowed to succeed. Targeted assasssinations, kidnappings, occupation of government buildings, etc. The only question left now is how much of Ukraine the Russkis think they can absorb.

    smells citrusy but is actually a Ukrainian newspaper - beware of Russian malware bots

    This wouldn't have happened if Hillary was still in charge

    What is happening now happened in 1938, in Czechoslovakia.

    image

    If the US had real policymakers in charge, we would be working on a plan to supply the Euros with natural gas in time for next winter and shipping 2 divisions to Romania, Poland, and the Baltics.

    But hey, a battalion from the 173rd is pretty cool. That's like, 600 dudes.

    usnews.com/news/articles/2014/04/22/us-sends-600-airborne-infantry-troops-to-poland-baltics

    If nothing else, the "ready" brigade from 82nd ABN should already be in Germany, just to show Vlad that we can get there in a hurry, but...

    :::crickets:::



    disagree
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  • MikeDamoneMikeDamone Member Posts: 37,781
    But I'm hearing we have a CONTRACT.
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  • PostGameOrangeSlicesPostGameOrangeSlices Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 26,449 Swaye's Wigwam
    we didn't "lose" Iraq or Afghanistan. we just occupied those countries for too long. we should have gone to iraq in 2003 and left both iraq and afghanistan that same year
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  • MikeDamoneMikeDamone Member Posts: 37,781
    PostGameOrangeSlices said:

    we didn't "lose" Iraq or Afghanistan. we just occupied those countries for too long. we should have gone to iraq in 2003 and left both iraq and afghanistan that same year

    Shouldn't have go into either county at all. Nor should we go into Syria or any place Russia is eyeing.
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  • topdawgnctopdawgnc Member Posts: 7,838
    edited April 2014
    PostGameOrangeSlices said:

    we didn't "lose" Iraq or Afghanistan. we just occupied those countries for too long. we should have gone to iraq in 2003 and left both iraq and afghanistan that same year

    image
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  • AZDuckAZDuck Member Posts: 15,381
    Shouldn't have go into either county at all. Nor should we go into Syria or any place Russia is eyeing.
    Disagree.

    If the Russians want to dismantle the Ukraine, so be it. We should bring the western, less-fucked-up half into the EU and NATO, and set up for Cold War Part Deux. Assad's going to win in Syria, and there are no good guys in the conflict anyway, so chalk that one up for the Russkis. Piece of shit worthless cuntry anyway.

    The great thing about Cold War Part Deux is that we can start looking at the world in spheres of influence, and the West's position has been greatly enhanced.

    These formerly Soviet or Soviet-leaning countries have gone over to the West since 1991:

    Poland
    West Ukraine
    Baltics
    Romania*
    Hungary
    Czech Rep.
    Slovakia
    Slovenia
    Croatia
    Albania
    Bulgaria
    Montenegro
    Kosovo
    Macedonia
    Bosnia (Federal gov't)
    Kurdistan* **
    Libya* **
    Afghanistan (for the moment)
    India
    Vietnam
    Cambodia
    Mozambique*
    Angola* **
    South Sudan*
    Ethiopia
    Tunisia
    Georgia
    Yemen

    These formerly Western-oriented countries have entered the Russian orbit since 1991:

    N/A

    The countries which are lined up with the Russians (as with the Soviets before them):

    Belarus
    Kazakhstan
    Kyrgyzstan
    Moldova (shaky)
    Tajikstan
    Uzbekistan
    Armenia
    Cuba
    Syria**
    North Korea
    Kaliningrad Oblast
    Serbia
    Republika Serpska (Bosnian Serbs)

    The next four categories are where things get fun (there's some overlap):

    (1) Islamic wildcards:

    (a) Shiite republics: Iraq* **, Iran* **
    (b) Shiite majorities, Sunni ruling class: Bahrain* **, Kuwait* **, Saudi Arabia* ** (Shia are massively undercounted there), Lebanon, Oman* **
    (c) Al-Qaeda (Sunni) symps: western Iraq*, Syrian rebels, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan* **, Sudan* **, Pakistan, Nigeria* **, Egypt**, Chechnya and Caucasus Russia* **, Chad* **, Mauritania
    (d) Western-oriented Sunni kingdoms: Jordan, Saudi Arabia* **, UAE* **, Qatar* **, Bahrain* **, Kuwait* **, Yemen, Oman* **, Egypt* **

    (2) SEATO autocracies:

    Singapore, Malaysia**, Thailand, Indonesia* **, Burma, Vietnam (* ** in Spratly Islands)

    (3) New Chinese client states:

    Sudan* **, Uganda, Tanzania, Malawi, Mozambique* **, Madagascar, Congo (Rep. of), Equatorial Guinea* **

    (* has oil, ** has natural gas)

    A new Cold War will have the West, Russia, and the Chinese courting the Islamic wild cards. Most of them hate the Russkis even more than they hate us. The SEATO countries are culturally pro-Chinese, but almost all of them have border disputes with Red China, which will shove them into the West's corner, because they know we won't steal their land or offshore oil fields.

    We should define the hard edges (W. Ukraine, Baltics, Romania, Poland) and let the Russkis stew in their own shit.
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  • MikeDamoneMikeDamone Member Posts: 37,781
    AZDuck said:

    Shouldn't have go into either county at all. Nor should we go into Syria or any place Russia is eyeing.
    Disagree.

    If the Russians want to dismantle the Ukraine, so be it. We should bring the western, less-fucked-up half into the EU and NATO, and set up for Cold War Part Deux. Assad's going to win in Syria, and there are no good guys in the conflict anyway, so chalk that one up for the Russkis. Piece of shit worthless cuntry anyway.

    The great thing about Cold War Part Deux is that we can start looking at the world in spheres of influence, and the West's position has been greatly enhanced.

    These formerly Soviet or Soviet-leaning countries have gone over to the West since 1991:

    Poland
    West Ukraine
    Baltics
    Romania*
    Hungary
    Czech Rep.
    Slovakia
    Slovenia
    Croatia
    Albania
    Bulgaria
    Montenegro
    Kosovo
    Macedonia
    Bosnia (Federal gov't)
    Kurdistan* **
    Libya* **
    Afghanistan (for the moment)
    India
    Vietnam
    Cambodia
    Mozambique*
    Angola* **
    South Sudan*
    Ethiopia
    Tunisia
    Georgia
    Yemen

    These formerly Western-oriented countries have entered the Russian orbit since 1991:

    N/A

    The countries which are lined up with the Russians (as with the Soviets before them):

    Belarus
    Kazakhstan
    Kyrgyzstan
    Moldova (shaky)
    Tajikstan
    Uzbekistan
    Armenia
    Cuba
    Syria**
    North Korea
    Kaliningrad Oblast
    Serbia
    Republika Serpska (Bosnian Serbs)

    The next four categories are where things get fun (there's some overlap):

    (1) Islamic wildcards:

    (a) Shiite republics: Iraq* **, Iran* **
    (b) Shiite majorities, Sunni ruling class: Bahrain* **, Kuwait* **, Saudi Arabia* ** (Shia are massively undercounted there), Lebanon, Oman* **
    (c) Al-Qaeda (Sunni) symps: western Iraq*, Syrian rebels, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan* **, Sudan* **, Pakistan, Nigeria* **, Egypt**, Chechnya and Caucasus Russia* **, Chad* **, Mauritania
    (d) Western-oriented Sunni kingdoms: Jordan, Saudi Arabia* **, UAE* **, Qatar* **, Bahrain* **, Kuwait* **, Yemen, Oman* **, Egypt* **

    (2) SEATO autocracies:

    Singapore, Malaysia**, Thailand, Indonesia* **, Burma, Vietnam (* ** in Spratly Islands)

    (3) New Chinese client states:

    Sudan* **, Uganda, Tanzania, Malawi, Mozambique* **, Madagascar, Congo (Rep. of), Equatorial Guinea* **

    (* has oil, ** has natural gas)

    A new Cold War will have the West, Russia, and the Chinese courting the Islamic wild cards. Most of them hate the Russkis even more than they hate us. The SEATO countries are culturally pro-Chinese, but almost all of them have border disputes with Red China, which will shove them into the West's corner, because they know we won't steal their land or offshore oil fields.

    We should define the hard edges (W. Ukraine, Baltics, Romania, Poland) and let the Russkis stew in their own shit.

    "War is the health of the state"

    We need to stay out.
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  • d2dd2d Member Posts: 3,109
    AZDuck said:

    Damone and I disagree on almost everything. But he has a point when he complains that the US is too lily-livered to do anything in the face of the first territorial aggression in Europe since Yugoslavia in the early 90's.

    The bitch of it is, we've wasted thousands of lives and billions of dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan - wars that were won on the battlefield but lost due to strategic failure (they were fucking pointless).

    This guy interviewed me once:

    not citrus

    {Iraq has] really become - I think it's fair to say it's become essentially a Shiite government. And it's a Shiite government which is very close to the great Shiite power in the region, Iran. I think it's fair to say it wouldn't exist the way that it does without Iranian support, and it's one of the - it's really one of the great ironies of this war, of the American war, that the guys who really ended up on top with the most influence in that country, it's not the Americans, not now, but it's the Iranians.
    I called this in 2003. I said, why invade Iraq - they don't want western democracy - the majority population is Shiites. Give them democracy and they will elect Shiite totalitarians instead of the Sunni totalitarians who have run the place ever since the Turks and Brits left.

    But, FYFMFE.

    Meanwhile, the Ukrainians are just kind of saying "well, fuck, we can't control our eastern provinces." Nice to see that a classic KGB destablization program has been allowed to succeed. Targeted assasssinations, kidnappings, occupation of government buildings, etc. The only question left now is how much of Ukraine the Russkis think they can absorb.

    smells citrusy but is actually a Ukrainian newspaper - beware of Russian malware bots

    This wouldn't have happened if Hillary was still in charge

    What is happening now happened in 1938, in Czechoslovakia.

    image

    If the US had real policymakers in charge, we would be working on a plan to supply the Euros with natural gas in time for next winter and shipping 2 divisions to Romania, Poland, and the Baltics.

    But hey, a battalion from the 173rd is pretty cool. That's like, 600 dudes.

    usnews.com/news/articles/2014/04/22/us-sends-600-airborne-infantry-troops-to-poland-baltics

    If nothing else, the "ready" brigade from 82nd ABN should already be in Germany, just to show Vlad that we can get there in a hurry, but...

    :::crickets:::



    So what does this have to do with White Racists in the NBA?

    image
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  • dncdnc Member Posts: 56,789
    koopdog said:

    MikeDamone said:

    But I'm hearing we have a CONTRACT.

    It's good that you're finally realizing that treaties, much like coaching contracts, are never broken.

    Why do you hate wedding vows?

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  • oregonblitzkriegoregonblitzkrieg Member Posts: 15,288
    Will we defend Andorra, San Marino or Lichtenstein if the Russians invade them?
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  • dncdnc Member Posts: 56,789
    oregonblitzkrieg said:

    Will we defend Andorra, San Marino or Lichtenstein if the Russians invade them?

    no

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  • AZDuckAZDuck Member Posts: 15,381
    oregonblitzkrieg said:

    Andorra, San Marino or Lichtenstein?

    Yes, no, craves it

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  • CFetters_Nacho_LoverCFetters_Nacho_Lover Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 30,728 Founders Club
    AZDuck said:

    Damone and I disagree on almost everything. But he has a point when he complains that the US is too lily-livered to do anything in the face of the first territorial aggression in Europe since Yugoslavia in the early 90's.

    The bitch of it is, we've wasted thousands of lives and billions of dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan - wars that were won on the battlefield but lost due to strategic failure (they were fucking pointless).

    This guy interviewed me once:

    not citrus

    {Iraq has] really become - I think it's fair to say it's become essentially a Shiite government. And it's a Shiite government which is very close to the great Shiite power in the region, Iran. I think it's fair to say it wouldn't exist the way that it does without Iranian support, and it's one of the - it's really one of the great ironies of this war, of the American war, that the guys who really ended up on top with the most influence in that country, it's not the Americans, not now, but it's the Iranians.
    I called this in 2003. I said, why invade Iraq - they don't want western democracy - the majority population is Shiites. Give them democracy and they will elect Shiite totalitarians instead of the Sunni totalitarians who have run the place ever since the Turks and Brits left.

    But, FYFMFE.

    Meanwhile, the Ukrainians are just kind of saying "well, fuck, we can't control our eastern provinces." Nice to see that a classic KGB destablization program has been allowed to succeed. Targeted assasssinations, kidnappings, occupation of government buildings, etc. The only question left now is how much of Ukraine the Russkis think they can absorb.

    smells citrusy but is actually a Ukrainian newspaper - beware of Russian malware bots

    This wouldn't have happened if Hillary was still in charge

    What is happening now happened in 1938, in Czechoslovakia.

    image

    If the US had real policymakers in charge, we would be working on a plan to supply the Euros with natural gas in time for next winter and shipping 2 divisions to Romania, Poland, and the Baltics.

    But hey, a battalion from the 173rd is pretty cool. That's like, 600 dudes.

    usnews.com/news/articles/2014/04/22/us-sends-600-airborne-infantry-troops-to-poland-baltics

    If nothing else, the "ready" brigade from 82nd ABN should already be in Germany, just to show Vlad that we can get there in a hurry, but...

    :::crickets:::



    The 173rd used to be cool but then the Army took away their little should flag insignias now they just look like the rest of the Army.

    Ready brigade? In THIS economy? I'm hearing they can't keep Green Ramp painted green anymore.
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